Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Kingdom of Georgia - REVAMP

[Khevsur]

georgian dismounted knight 12-13 century

[Lifthrasir]

My apologies in advance to "hijack" this thread but I'm looking for info about the Kingdom of Georgia for a period slightly earlier from my mod. Basically, the period is from 1132 AD until 1212 AD. After that, I can use the info posted here. The idea is to improve our actual roster based on the one made by Broken Crescent. Any input is welcome here. Thank you in advance.

Btw, great job with your units ltd.

[Khevsur]

Tazreuli Knight 13 century



Castle guard 12-14 century

[Khevsur]

please, not make scale armor on helmet. make chain mail armor on helmet. nose proteqtor down, Many have face Covered .Thick cloth make on full body - for low class warriors. Foot Article guard not make.


sorry ltd

[Lucem Mundum]

Many have face Covered .

Not a single one of them have their face covered in the manuscript. I am not saying that they never covered their faces with chain mail, but it doesn't appear to have been a common phenomenon in medieval georgia.

[Ltd.]

Why wouldn´t I use scale coif when georgian illustrations clearly show them ?!

http://warfare.ml/13/Georgian-Djruch...-H1665.htm?i=1

They will use maille coifs as well, I already made them, but I am not removing the scale coifs. They will wear a nice mix of scale and maille coifs with scale and lamellar armour

[Khevsur]

Historians note - this was Chain structure old Style Drawing

[hessam]

Historians note - this was Chain structure old Style Drawing

not really. As you can see in this illumination, the maif coif and the scale coif are quite distinguishable.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Khevsur]

No. It was not scale cofis. is old paint style.
on pictures painted lamelar armour and chain coifs



in early times I too was thinking -this is scale coifs and scale armor. But I read it military historian mamuka tsurtsumia s book.

I was wrong, this is lamelar armor and chain coif

[zsimmortal]

No. It was not scale cofis. is old paint style.
on pictures painted lamelar armour and chain-mail cofis



in early times I too was thinking scale cofis and scale armor. But I read it militari historian mamuka tsurtsumia s book

Your statement makes no sense. There's a mail coif in the same painting that is drawn completely differently.

[hessam]

No. It was not scale cofis. is old paint style.
on pictures painted lamelar armour and chain cofis



in early times I too was thinking -this is scale cofis and scale armor. But I read it military historian mamuka tsurtsumia s book.

I was wrong, this is lamelar armor and chain cofis.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

see the difference?

[Visarion]

I love your drawings Khevsur. You are very talented.

[Ltd.]

With all due respect to Mamuka Tsurtsumia, but the pictures definitely show scale armour. The way they are depicted, the way they overlap each other, it is definitely not maille nor lamellar, but scale armour.
We cannot disregard something that is depicted in favor of something we would like to see.

[Khevsur]

Sorry , You do not know Georgian iconography.
This is not mine Whim.
no problem. stay scale coifs. But this is a mistake.
I only advise


Lucem Mundum
Yes, on picture is not visible.



in medieval times georgian used

12-13 century

1.Chain-mail armor 40 %
2.lamelar armor 40 %
3.scale armor 10 %
4.padding armor 10%

in 14-15 century scale armor not used



hessam
georgians used padding coifs and chain mail coifs

[Dontfearme22]

Sorry , You do not know Georgian iconography.
This is not mine Whim.
no problem. stay scale coifs. But this is a mistake.
I only advise


Lucem Mundum
Yes, on picture is not visible.



in medieval times georgian used

12-13 century

1.Chain-mail armor 40 %
2.lamelar armor 40 %
3.scale armor 10 %
4.padding armor 10%

in 14-15 century scale armor not used



hessam
georgians used padding coifs and chain mail coifs

That looks exactly like scale armor. It even looks like the artist painted little white dots in the center of the scales to show the light shining off them. Also, compare with the figure in gold to see how similar they look. The loops are also pointed downwards, and overlapping like scales, like round and interlaced like chainmail would be.

Occams razor. I see very little proof that those armors are anything but scale.

Look how even on the shoulder they form a distinct border. Why would there be a real armor that would have a single chainmail row dividing a shoulder plate from a quilted sleeve? Much more likely its a scale border like you see in byzantine armor, which influenced georgian armor anyways, as you yourself have said.

[Khevsur]

Dontfearme22
on picture body armour is lamelar
coifs is chain mail and padding

[Dontfearme22]

Dontfearme22
on picture body armour is lamelar
coifs is chain mail and padding

the coif and the body armor are painted the exact same way, which leads me to believe they are the same style of armor. Plus, I've never seen lamellar that overlaps, or appears to overlap like that. Again, can't see any reason to not believe that is scale armor. What evidence do you have that the soldiers of this style of artwork wouldn't be wearing scale armor and scale coifs?

[Khevsur]

Dontfearme22

They said, Georgian military historians.Mamuka Turtsumia and more...
This is primitive old style drawing chain mail and lamelar armour.
sorry my english is very bad.I can not Discussion

[Lifthrasir]

I'm not a specialist but I tend to agree with Khevsur on that one. I haven't found any "full" scale coif, only partial one (meaning only some parts were using scale armour while others were using chainmail).
Also, considering that the warrior needs to keep his head mobile, I'm convinced (but might be wrong) that a scale coif would limit the head movements and so, make it quite unconfortable

[Levan]

Coif on the Left is indeed cloth, not mail. It is just plain black.
The rest coifs can be chain mail because it has no white dots for shining light like body armor of middle and left warrior.
It is doubtful that all these guys had scales in reality. As Khevsur said, scale was used rarely by both Georgians and Byzantines.
Also how, in your opinion, scale could be fixed on helmet? I can't imagine. Chain mail was fixed on small rings, like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What do you think guys, is this scale or chain? These two are frescoes of St. Catherine's Monastery on Mount Sinai.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What i have read, historians all agree that it is chain armor. Not only Georgians, these frescoes have been topic of discussion by many because of saints' "weird" equipment(Christians with Mongol bows, etc.).

So it seems, medieval painters used to draw chain mail like scales, as you see not only Georgians. This is what Khevsur meant and i can't disagree.
Ltd.'s coifs are different story, it is his work and i respect his decisions.