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Thread: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Few months earlier , when Turkey lived the attempt to overthrown "Democracy" in the country I posted what next moves would be made by Erdogan to accomplish his Neo Ottoman agenta.
    I mentioned that after that coop Turkey left with a higly divide society between those that wanted a modern "western" type state following the legacy of Kemal Attaturk and those that lived with the dream of Ottoman Empire's restoration.
    But Turkish society is divided not only politicaly but also economicaly and cultural by those that leaved in the Turkey's western shores and those that lived in Anatolia or recently moved by thousands in to Constantinople.
    The educational and cultural gap in those two parts of Turkish population is huge and justify the preference of the second part to radical Islam instead of western way of life.
    In the past i wrote that Erdogan would try to gather all political power on him following his dream to become a modern Sultan (done).
    Also I wrote that Erdogan would attempt to unify the majority of the Turkish society ussing the myths of common enemies were they suited for that cause.
    First he used the Kurdish issue despite the fact that when he became Turkish PM visited Kurdish lands and promised political solution for their cause.
    Second he used the "evil" Israel (sionists) despite the fact that Israel was the most loyal ally of Turkey for almost 20 years.
    Third he used Syria and as a laft over Russia to create a pan Turkish feeling of injustice but soon enough he realised that Turkey's economy could not hundle the luck of exports to Russia!
    Then he turned to Greece that was/is the most clasical "enemy" of Turkey escalating the provocations both by sea and air hopping that an insident would give him the moral advandage to start a war conflict "having the right " on his side.
    After the coup Turkish Military officers admited the existance of a plan were Turkish airplanes would shoot down a Turkish airplane and would have Greece be blamed for it.
    We must not forget that Turkish Defence Ministry revealed last summer an other Turkish plan of invasion in the Greek Thrace and also the Colonel of the Turkish Army Uzay Şahin.
    What is in stake is that the Turkish economy crumples under the turism colapse and under the isolation of ISIS cheap oil. Erdogan needed a new "story" to turn Turkish's opinion attention from Turkey's real problems and so...war with some "easy opponets came 1st in his agenta again. Erdogan admires both Sultan Mehmed II the Qonqueror and Sultan Suleiman the Magnifisent but inorder to sell such a profil he needed some public signs.
    Turkey's will to present its self as the Ultimate Protector of all Muslims (Suleiman) started with Turkey's attempt to invade northern Iraq and later northern Syria. But those attempts actually failed because some superpowers are active in those regions. The next direction was to the east. Erdogan chosen to play the card of the strong leader against the evil/christian western europe hopping that right exrimist parties would gain some ellections and justify his desisions. The second goal was that if those right extremist parties would/will gain the elections in their countries (see Holland,France,Germany) would make their promise of deserting Greece in its own faith making Greece isolated in a possible political or even worst military help in the future. The recent Turkey's interfearence in the Bulgarian elections and the recent Erdogan's claim that WW 1 has not yet ended for Turkey means clearly that Turkey wants the right of a rematch with the states that fought against Turkey or the states that emerged from Ottoman Empire after the end of WW 1.
    Erdogan tries hard to "issolate" Balkans from the rest of the Europe that actually is not that hard if we remember that south EU is already isolated by those that were benefited by it in the near past.
    Also ussing the vast Turkish minority to blackmail EU northern states (almost 6 million Turks) creates a western public opinion "let Turks do what they want if they will let us quite and safe".
    Only yesterday Erdogan threatended EU and "west" that soon westerners will fear to walk in to their streets!
    Those that claimed that Erdogan was ISIS's most loyal ally now they see how much right they were when Erdogan uses the exact same retory with ISIS!
    Erodgan needs despertly easy victims because:
    He will unify Turkish society over common enemies.
    He will -if succed- gain teritories that will improve Turkey's stradegic position gaining more trade benefits even by those that apear today as enemies (see EU).
    He will boost Turkey's crumpled economy by starting with the military products exports (that will be presented as war proven ones).
    He will force other countries in Middle East to follow Turkey as the Leader of Islam because in every case those goverments will face internal revolts. Remember that Erdogan already tried to input friendly goverments with Islmamic agents in Egypt! Also Turkey suports one of the three rebel goverments in Lybia with weapons and other material.

    Some will say..That is a fairy tale and wont happen.
    But through out history , a mans crazy vision of supremacy was the most common reason of starting wars. We still remember Hitler and his dreams about humanity and races!
    Erdogan's visions of Islamic victory over the atheists, the dream of the "Protector of all Muslims through out the world" and his dreams to restore the Ottoman empire are more than enough to threaten western world. Turkey and Pakistan work together with Pakistan "promise" to Turkey to supply the "Islamic Bomb" (nuclear weapons). A Turkey with nuclear weapons in its disposal will feel free to start major or minor conflict as it likes.
    Countries lik ethe Balkan ones will be the 1st to take the 1st blow but in EU modern way of non suporting a member to an other countries like Hungary, Austria and others will soon become "vassals" to Turkey's will.
    Unforthunatly many EU people still believe that if their country will be threatened other EU countries will help.
    Erdogan KNOWS that this is a myth and that feeds his sick ambitions to have Turkey expanded.




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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Okay, no, this is a huge exagration. There are no plans of a war or invasion in balkans.
    Even a potentially "orchestrated" conflict would be short lived just to pass this presidency thing. Turkey has a whole lot other problems than warring an eu and nato country.
    It is quiet unplausible.

    A potential conflict turkey could escalate would happen in syria or iraq, and if not there it would not happen anywhere else.
    You are exaggrating "erdoğans dreams" and he is more pragmatic than you think.
    He just knows that west does not back him anymore and his sunniland dreams are failing in middleeast while kurds with a lot of gains are being backed by the west and even russians.
    He is cornered and he needs to escalate to get his presidency.
    If he fails, the akp movement will lose a lot of morale and momentum...but even a win does not mean a good future for erdoğan since middle east will still be lost, kurds will become a bigger threat and exonomy and opposition will eventually hit back.

    But war with Greece? I highly highly doubt it.
    Sounds like greek scaremongering similar to akp scaremongering of the west.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Its funny reading the idea that the Turks will become a Neo-Ottoman Empire ala Millenium Dawn mod for HOI IV
    Last edited by Iskar; March 22, 2017 at 12:22 PM. Reason: personal reference removed

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Okay, no, this is a huge exagration. There are no plans of a war or invasion in balkans.
    Even a potentially "orchestrated" conflict would be short lived just to pass this presidency thing. Turkey has a whole lot other problems than warring an eu and nato country.
    It is quiet unplausible.

    A potential conflict turkey could escalate would happen in syria or iraq, and if not there it would not happen anywhere else.
    You are exaggrating "erdoğans dreams" and he is more pragmatic than you think.
    He just knows that west does not back him anymore and his sunniland dreams are failing in middleeast while kurds with a lot of gains are being backed by the west and even russians.
    He is cornered and he needs to escalate to get his presidency.
    If he fails, the akp movement will lose a lot of morale and momentum...but even a win does not mean a good future for erdoğan since middle east will still be lost, kurds will become a bigger threat and exonomy and opposition will eventually hit back.

    But war with Greece? I highly highly doubt it.
    Sounds like greek scaremongering similar to akp scaremongering of the west.
    Lets use history and find simularities.
    When Hitler rised in power most western European leaders and people saw him as a funny fellow that tried hard to convince Germans to restore their glorius past.
    If anyone tried to say that he was a dangerus man that could lead germans to a hopeless war the rest called him silly. No one believed that Germany the country with so many troubles and huge divided society could start a war!
    Erdogan focuses on Turkey's Ottoman past to intrique Turkish majority.
    Hitler claimed that would take back every land Germany lost durring WW 1.
    Erdogan only yesterday said that WW 1 has not yet finished for Turkey and lands like Aegean islands, lands in Georgia, Mosul, Syria,south Bulgaria etc have to return to Turkey!
    Hitler prepaired Germany carefully by focussing in to military industry trying to gain military efficiency and indipendence that would allow his troops to fight without consirning embargos.
    Turkey had a 15 years plan of developing weapons supply indipendence (only last month a balistic missile of 600 Kms range was tested ussing Turkish,Chinese and Pakistani technology). Turkey is now at the top 10 of countries in produssing and developing weapons.
    Germany started WW 2 one year earlier through provocations in the Pollish and French borders (known as the phantom war).
    Turkey has escalated provocations and already has engaged in conflicts the last 6 months.
    Hitler before officialy declare WW 2 closed a potential war front with Soviet Union by spliting Polland!
    Erdogan closed a potential war front with Russia by agreeing in the Hoicoumenical Patriarchee issue and by accepting Russia's positions in Syria!
    European superpowers in order to avoid war offered Hitler Chechoslovakia.
    EU inorder to avoid new streams of refugees and espesialy inorder to avoid Turkish population unrests in their country play Erdogan's game of nationalism.
    Hitler named his war as 3rd Empire!
    Erdogan names his willing to go to war as the restoration of the Ottoman Empire. Remember that a minister of his goverment compered him Mehmed II the Qonqueror.
    Hitler created armed forces and gathers all radical extreme right parties.
    Erdogan has already managed to have Grey Woulfs in his side (with more than 30000 assasinations in the last 40 years) but also has his own Preatorian Guard SADAT.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    Its funny reading the idea that the Turks will become a Neo-Ottoman Empire ala Millenium Dawn mod for HOI IV
    Its funny that so many see lightly important issues simply because they sleep well and safe.
    Have you ever saw a Syrian refugee?
    Have you ever saw a real veteran of war ?
    Have you ever felt threat like the London people few hours ago?
    If not stop being silly with important matters that may cause millions of deaths and miserable lives.
    History does not copy TW games. TW game copy history. If you are serius enough to understand that you will be in the right path.

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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Lets use history and find simularities.
    When Hitler rised in power most western European leaders and people saw him as a funny fellow that tried hard to convince Germans to restore their glorius past.
    If anyone tried to say that he was a dangerus man that could lead germans to a hopeless war the rest called him silly. No one believed that Germany the country with so many troubles and huge divided society could start a war!
    Erdogan focuses on Turkey's Ottoman past to intrique Turkish majority.
    Hitler claimed that would take back every land Germany lost durring WW 1.
    Erdogan only yesterday said that WW 1 has not yet finished for Turkey and lands like Aegean islands, lands in Georgia, Mosul, Syria,south Bulgaria etc have to return to Turkey!
    Hitler prepaired Germany carefully by focussing in to military industry trying to gain military efficiency and indipendence that would allow his troops to fight without consirning embargos.
    Turkey had a 15 years plan of developing weapons supply indipendence (only last month a balistic missile of 600 Kms range was tested ussing Turkish,Chinese and Pakistani technology). Turkey is now at the top 10 of countries in produssing and developing weapons.
    Germany started WW 2 one year earlier through provocations in the Pollish and French borders (known as the phantom war).
    Turkey has escalated provocations and already has engaged in conflicts the last 6 months.
    Hitler before officialy declare WW 2 closed a potential war front with Soviet Union by spliting Polland!
    Erdogan closed a potential war front with Russia by agreeing in the Hoicoumenical Patriarchee issue and by accepting Russia's positions in Syria!
    European superpowers in order to avoid war offered Hitler Chechoslovakia.
    EU inorder to avoid new streams of refugees and espesialy inorder to avoid Turkish population unrests in their country play Erdogan's game of nationalism.
    Hitler named his war as 3rd Empire!
    Erdogan names his willing to go to war as the restoration of the Ottoman Empire. Remember that a minister of his goverment compered him Mehmed II the Qonqueror.
    Hitler created armed forces and gathers all radical extreme right parties.
    Erdogan has already managed to have Grey Woulfs in his side (with more than 30000 assasinations in the last 40 years) but also has his own Preatorian Guard SADAT.

    Its funny that so many see lightly important issues simply because they sleep well and safe.
    Have you ever saw a Syrian refugee?
    Have you ever saw a real veteran of war ?
    Have you ever felt threat like the London people few hours ago?
    If not stop being silly with important matters that may cause millions of deaths and miserable lives.
    History does not copy TW games. TW game copy history. If you are serius enough to understand that you will be in the right path.
    I dont think you understand how highly divided Turkish society is. There is a very sensetive balance in Turkey and almost half thr country not only doesnt like akp but literally hate them to their guts.
    The international balance now is a lot stronger.
    He also never said we will take lands from balkans.

    Akp works through islamic brotherhood influence in sunni countries. Their purpose was to create a turkey led sunni civilization, but they failed very very hard in middle east and now turkey is on the defensive. Any aggression towards the west would simply give a lot of global actors to totally dismantle turkey.
    Turkey has a huge kurdish issue for instance and more trouble with the west for turkey directly empowers the kurds.
    Turkish state relies on violance and force to enforce authority.
    This is a sign of weakness. Turkey cannot afford that much escalation.
    You might think that the nationalist base would like this, but i can tell you half of that mass of people would start huge complaints the moment life gets hard due to escalation with west.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    I thought is Erdogan wants to play race card he would use Armenian as scapegoat...
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    I dont think you understand how highly divided Turkish society is. There is a very sensetive balance in Turkey and almost half thr country not only doesnt like akp but literally hate them to their guts.
    The international balance now is a lot stronger.
    He also never said we will take lands from balkans.

    Akp works through islamic brotherhood influence in sunni countries. Their purpose was to create a turkey led sunni civilization, but they failed very very hard in middle east and now turkey is on the defensive. Any aggression towards the west would simply give a lot of global actors to totally dismantle turkey.
    Turkey has a huge kurdish issue for instance and more trouble with the west for turkey directly empowers the kurds.
    Turkish state relies on violance and force to enforce authority.
    This is a sign of weakness. Turkey cannot afford that much escalation.
    You might think that the nationalist base would like this, but i can tell you half of that mass of people would start huge complaints the moment life gets hard due to escalation with west.
    My friend you actually give the answer your self. Let me remind you that only 1 of 4 Germans liked Hitler but when he started the myth of the enemies that try to elliminate Germany most of them joined him.
    Remember that Ottoman Empire was deeply devided between the last Sultan and Kemal until the very momment Greeks,English and Italians came to Ionian shores! Then Kemal gathered almost 100% of Turks behind him.
    Let me remind you that when Italy invaded Greece in 1940 , Greece had a ruthless Dictatorship that had sent thousands in exile. But the very next day of that invasion 40000 of those exiled signed to be allowed to join the army and fight for Greece under the orders of those that sent them in exile in first place. The love for motherland is strong to all people on this planet. Many evil people use that love to promote their sick dreams. Remember that months earlier when i wrote that Turkey will invade Syria many laughted. When i said that even earlier that Erdogan saw him self as Sultan more people laughed untill the very momment he apeared in his new "pallace guard"!
    Many things that look silly or dificult to be made are the 1t priorities for some.
    Very few people know that Germany in 1939-1940 was too weak in military and Chechoslovakia alone could easily defeat Germany but some idiots gave that country to Germany! Even in those days very few people in europe believed taht Germany would start a war.
    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    I thought is Erdogan wants to play race card he would use Armenian as scapegoat...
    Armenian never stoped to be in Turkey's agenda. Remember that in last September Erdogan asked Armenia to return "Azeri" lands!
    But today Erdogan needs Putin and Putin uses Armenia as his stronghold. So Armenian issue is on ice for the momment.

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    bigdaddy1204's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Erdogan is a corrupt gangster criminal thug who is deluded and thinks he is god on earth. I think he is heading for a reckoning, and when it comes, he is going to fall spectacularly. He belongs in a jail.

    Turkey invading Greece? Even Erdogan isn't stupid enough to try that.
    Last edited by bigdaddy1204; March 24, 2017 at 04:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I am quite impressed by the fact that you managed to make such a rant but still manage to phrase it in such a way that it is neither relevant to the thread nor to the topic you are trying to introduce to the thread.

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy1204 View Post
    Erdogan is a corrupt gangster criminal thug who is deluded and thinks he is god on earth. I think he is heading for a reckoning, and when it comes, he is going to fall spectacularly. He belongs in a jail.

    Turkey invading Greece? Even Erdogan isn't stupid enough to try that.
    What is Erdogan is up to Turkish people to deside. Its their president not ours. That is how Democracy works. In Democracy though people must accept the consequences of their choices.
    About if he is stupid or not is debatable.
    In theory he has all advandages.
    Greece is in dept and lost the ballance in forces quality that had for 30 years.
    Turkey uses Albania and FYROM as potential secondary warfronts to force Greece to separate split its forces.
    Turkey threatens Europe with the 6 million Turks in EU to stay away from Turkey's movements plus 90% of EU countries simply do not care -if not hate- Greece.
    Turkey has 70% self made military equipment that gives the country more space to manuevre.
    Turkey has 58 million Turks (if we could exclude Kurds) against 10 million Greeks.
    In the numbers Turkey has all advandages it could have!
    But its true that history teaches us some paradoxes!
    Italy in 1940 was a real superpower but when invaded Greece it defeated and had to beg to Germany to invade Greece to finally save Italian forces in Albania.
    But Erdogan wont be the 1st (like Mussoliny) that will take his chanches in this world and certainly he wont be the last either!

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    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    What you do not understand is the huge threats the sunni islamist akp leadership and turkish state faces in kurdistan and the rest of the middle east.

    And conjucture is way different than 1940s.

    There is a huge shia threat , a really really annoyed syria, a huge rebellious kurdish population, millions of very angry secular kemalists waiting to explode against erdoğan, a military with questionable loyalties and distrupted organization an iran with a vastly growing influence, houthis taking land from saudi allies, egypt controlled by an anti-islamist military dictatorship that hated turkey and rojavan kurdish dominated entity all over turkeys southern borders with backing from EU, usa and Russia all the while islamists allies in syria are being butchered and losing hope.
    Turkey is failing miserably in foreign politics and is stuck.

    A war with greece is unplausible. Turkey is barely prepared to defend itself from kurdish insurgency within its borders.




    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    What you do not understand is the huge threats the sunni islamist akp leadership and turkish state faces in kurdistan and the rest of the middle east.

    And conjucture is way different than 1940s.

    There is a huge shia threat , a really really annoyed syria, a huge rebellious kurdish population, millions of very angry secular kemalists waiting to explode against erdoğan, a military with questionable loyalties and distrupted organization an iran with a vastly growing influence, houthis taking land from saudi allies, egypt controlled by an anti-islamist military dictatorship that hated turkey and rojavan kurdish dominated entity all over turkeys southern borders with backing from EU, usa and Russia all the while islamists allies in syria are being butchered and losing hope.
    Turkey is failing miserably in foreign politics and is stuck.

    A war with greece is unplausible. Turkey is barely prepared to defend itself from kurdish insurgency within its borders.




    Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk
    What you say has a logic. I do not deny this. In politics though (war is diplomacy with other tools) there are some factors that can not be seen from the start.
    A scenario is that Erdogan will try a fast war with Greece to take 2-3 islands to give Turkey access to the meditaranean sea since Castelorizo actually keeps Turkey issolated from the resources.
    An other scenario that is a bit stretched but happened few times before in political history is that Turkey will give something and take something else in return.
    An example. If USA and Israel insist for an autonomus Kurdistan in Syria and in Iraq (not indipentet because in that case Turkey would have IRAN as ally ), then those forces could over see Turkey's actions in Cyprus or against Greece!
    It happened before and it will happen again. In fact that streched scenario is more possible for a number of reasons.
    Russia get's the Oikoumenical Patriarch issue after Turkish ellimination of the Patriarch of Constantinople.
    USA create a state of Kurds to keep IRAN under preasure because of IRAN's Kurdistan.
    Turkey gets all Cyprus and its oils and few Greek Islands and control Aegean. Then the rest of "humanitarian" hypocrists we call today EU countries will borrow AGAIN Greece money for reconstruction and will already sell more weapons. In the end they believe that will keep Erdogan sutisfied like UK and France though (those idiots) back in 1938 when surrendered Chechoslovakia to Hitler but this did n't stop Hitler to start a war with 54 million casualties.
    Stydding History my self i see such example from the dawn of political history in human race.

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    Harith's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    @AnthoniusII,

    I honestly do not understand the paranoia here. Turkey is part of NATO, has extensive military and intelligence relationship with NATO members and specifically the US and Israel. If NATO, hypothetically, decides to let Erdogan get away with everything and leave Turkey (a huge national security interest of US) they would be in the mercy of an already belligerent Russia. Therefore, I do not think they are willing to throw that strategic partnership out of the door for a few disputed islands and bruised pride with the Greeks.

    Not to mention that the military, despite the purge, remains somewhat autonomous and very powerful especially given the current Kurdish insurgency.

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harith View Post
    @AnthoniusII,

    I honestly do not understand the paranoia here. Turkey is part of NATO, has extensive military and intelligence relationship with NATO members and specifically the US and Israel. If NATO, hypothetically, decides to let Erdogan get away with everything and leave Turkey (a huge national security interest of US) they would be in the mercy of an already belligerent Russia. Therefore, I do not think they are willing to throw that strategic partnership out of the door for a few disputed islands and bruised pride with the Greeks.

    Not to mention that the military, despite the purge, remains somewhat autonomous and very powerful especially given the current Kurdish insurgency.
    And in what you are saying were is the paradox?
    In a previus post in the Political Mudpit i mentioned that NATO and EU already suported a Turkish invasion against Greece.
    Back in 1986 EU wanted to allow Spain and Portugal in EU. Both countries had strong agricultural exports and "threatened" bot Italy's and Greece's (primarily) similar exports to the north EU countries.
    But Greece agreed.
    Less than a year later Turkey desided to provoke Greece in to a conflict taking out Sismik oceanographic ship (like Turkey does TOTAY ALSO) with escort of war ships.
    Greece warned Turkey that such action was a declair to war.
    Later the Greek Foreign Afairs minister found out the background of that Crisis.
    USA goverment had desided to suport Turkey in an extensive invasion against Greece because it believed that Greece would "suport" Russia and would close the Aegean!
    US Defence Secretary Caspar Weinberger sent a Top Secret Message to Naples NATO SAQUER (chief of South East NATO wing) to engage NATO's forces to suport Turkey's invasion.
    Back then EU had the following states:
    Germany, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Denmark, Ireland, United Kingdom, Spain ,Portugal and Greece ofcourse.
    ALL OF THEM complied with NATO's order to suport Turkey's invasion against their MOST LOYAL ALLY in all recent wars!!!!
    Then Greece turned to Communist Bulgaria for help. Bulgaria agreed and gathered 95% of its forces in the Bulgarian-Turkish borders that are less than 2kms from Andrianople.
    Turks saw that the more than 2000 Bulgarian Tanks in one front and the Greek Forces in the same region made a bad scenario that would need to fight in two fronts.
    Greece mobillised 100% of its reserves in less than 2 days! The old Destroyer that patroled in north Aegean recieved the spesific order to sink Sismic eeven if it had to ram it!
    Turkey made a step back difussing the war atmosphear and ONLY THEN EU co-members signed a piece of paper that asked Greece (the victim) and Turkey (the agressor) to behave in a civilised way and solve their problems with out going to war! ALL top secret NATO's and EU documents were published by that time Greek Foreign Afairs minister Ioannes Kapsis in a book "The three days of March".
    Also in 1996 when Turkey tried AGAIN to create a conflict NO EU member even suported Greece EVEN with words! Remember that it was active the article of EU's 1990 declaration that agression in one EU member is agression to all EU members. What you do not know was that that time Greek PM mr Mitsotakis was threatened by the rest of EU members that they would cut money suport to Greece and he agreed to EXCLUDE Greece from that article!
    So ...what you see as "allies" are not allies at all!!!!!!But unforthunatly many Greeks still believe that we have allies!
    CIA estimations about the ballance of two countries forces.
    As you can see I am not talking noncence. Countries that waiting NATO or EU to save them from any invasion live in dreams.
    Esthonia, Letonia, Bulgaria etc...No one ever helps anyone!
    EDIT: Read CIA's document carefully. Erdogan follows what CIA suspected back then. He targets Kastelorizon Island that conects the zone of inetrests of Greece with the ones of Egypt and Cyprus and keeps away Turkey from oil and gass deposits! Nothing happens accidently.

  14. #14
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Not my words... Zaman newpaper reporter from Turkey.

    Fair question...Black opps ..Are Turks plotting something like an incident like Kemal's House fire a century ago that was proven that made by Turkish agent?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Not my words... Zaman newpaper reporter from Turkey.

    Fair question...Black opps ..Are Turks plotting something like an incident like Kemal's House fire a century ago that was proven that made by Turkish agent?
    Zaman was the newspaper that belonged to Fetullah community which (the community) was behind AKP's rise to power, false persecution of the Ergenekon coup plots, and more. Atatürk's house in Thessaloniki was never burned, hence, no Turkish agent was involved in this non-existent house fire.

    Your post is a prime example of the standards we see in this thread. Keep it up.
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  16. #16
    Hmmm's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Not my words... Zaman newpaper reporter from Turkey.

    Fair question...Black opps ..Are Turks plotting something like an incident like Kemal's House fire a century ago that was proven that made by Turkish agent?
    Pretty sure it was an explosion, not a fire. A Turk planted a bomb at the Turkish Consulate next to the house where Kemal was born - and the Turks then blamed the explosion on Greece. Of course, your reference still works, as the point you are making is about false flag operations, and it's irrelevant if it was a fire or an explosion.

    See; Alfred de Zayas, "The Istanbul Pogrom of 6-7 September 1955 in the Light of International Law", Genocide Studies and Prevention: An International Journal, vol. 2 (2), 2007, p. 138.
    Last edited by Hmmm; March 28, 2017 at 08:12 AM.
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  17. #17
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Zaman was the newspaper that belonged to Fetullah community which (the community) was behind AKP's rise to power, false persecution of the Ergenekon coup plots, and more. Atatürk's house in Thessaloniki was never burned, hence, no Turkish agent was involved in this non-existent house fire.

    Your post is a prime example of the standards we see in this thread. Keep it up.
    An Imam was arrested TODAY in Greek Thrace because secret service found in his house two pistols (one with silencer) and a rifle.
    Coincidence?
    Remember that in 1998 three MIT agents arersted in Aegean Islands putting fires trying to expose defensive positions of the Greek National Guard. Wit NATO's interfearence they returned to Turkey!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hmmm View Post
    Pretty sure it was an explosion, not a fire. A Turk planted a bomb at the Turkish Consulate next to the house where Kemal was born - and the Turks then blamed the explosion on Greece. Of course, your reference still works, as the point you are making is about false flag operations, and it's irrelevant if it was a fire or an explosion.

    See; Alfred de Zayas, "The Istanbul Pogrom of 6-7 September 1955 in the Light of International Law", Genocide Studies and Prevention: An International Journal, vol. 2 (2), 2007, p. 138.
    True.. It proves that creating provocative actions still exist in Turkey as an art. Suspisions go to Vayazit's Mosque "accidendaly" fire while it was under reconstruction?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    An Imam was arrested TODAY in Greek Thrace because secret service found in his house two pistols (one with silencer) and a rifle.
    Coincidence?
    Remember that in 1998 three MIT agents arersted in Aegean Islands putting fires trying to expose defensive positions of the Greek National Guard. Wit NATO's interfearence they returned to Turkey!
    And? I forgot my tin foil hat at the bus station, so you have to provide a little more detail on this conquest of deflection from logic and sanity. What does any of this, true or not, though most likely merely your creation, have anything to do with what I said?

    By the way, is there a law against imams owning guns in Greece?..
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  19. #19
    Harith's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    @AnthoniusII,

    I'm not well versed (and by that I mean completely oblivious) in the Greeco-Turkish relationship and history.

    However, Turkey is a democracy and majority of Turks are staunchly nationalistic. There were talks 4 months ago in Iraq about a Turkish annexation of Mosul when Erdogan (I think) made comments that Turkey never gave up it's right to the province and the treaty it signed with the British and Iraqis ceding Mosul to Iraq does not hold any weight.

    I believe that the current actions, provocations and threats are simply a campaign ruse to excite the nationalist vote and drum up support for the constitutional referendum by drawing a consensus amongst secular and non-secular nationalists.

    I don't think that Turkey possesses, especially after the purge, the capability to fight 3 wars on 3 separate fronts against the Kurds, Syria and Greece. Not to mention that, in the current political climate, I think most nations would side with Greece.

    In conclusion, I do believe that you are right in Turkey flexing it's muscles. However, I disagree with the motivation which I believe is mostly political.

  20. #20
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Erdogan's Prelude to war II.

    Harith is on point. There is some flexing but it has nothing to do with Greece.
    Turkey s real concerns are in the east and had been for a veeeery long time.


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    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
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