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Thread: Research Thread : The Papal States

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  1. #1

    Default Research Thread : The Papal States

    Hello everyone, since I am now working on the Papal States (amongst other things), I figured I'd start this thread to get some information rolling on the makeup of Papal armies and their equipment. While I'm conscious they'll likely share quite a lot with their Italian neighbours, I'd like to keep the sourcing mostly focused on the Papal States if possible. Let's also stay away from the Swiss Guard, as they postdate the mod's period. There will be Swiss mercenaries however, fear not.

    I already have found quite a few decent miniatures and paintings (pretty much all 15h century, sadly), like this 15h century one about the sack of Rome by the Vandals :

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Written sources and 13th to 15th century paintings and manuscript illustrations are the best form of sources. I'm also fine with Italian sources, as even though I don't speak Italian, my French allows me to understand most of it. Thanks to everyone.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States


  3. #3

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...749665f752.jpg



    http://historum.com/medieval-byzanti...al-states.html

    Central Italy, 13th century • Tuscan knight in Papal service, early 13th century • Militia crossbowman, Volterra, mid-13th century • Tuscan knight of the Alighieri family, late 13th century
    Last edited by Ltd.; March 20, 2017 at 02:30 PM. Reason: removed Osprey pic due to copyright

  4. #4

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    Quote Originally Posted by aljo View Post
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...749665f752.jpg



    http://historum.com/medieval-byzanti...al-states.html

    Central Italy, 13th century • Tuscan knight in Papal service, early 13th century • Militia crossbowman, Volterra, mid-13th century • Tuscan knight of the Alighieri family, late 13th century
    You can't post Osprey material as it is copyrighted. I'd also generally prefer to sticking to period art as it is likelier to be accurate.
    Last edited by Ltd.; March 20, 2017 at 02:29 PM. Reason: removed Osprey pic due to copyright

  5. #5

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    I'm from siena which wasn't under papal rule but it's an italian city however.
    I've seen this at the museum, it was more a parade thing and of the 14th/15th century, but for a late period officer it would be cool
    http://www.sienafree.it/sinalunga/21...onale-di-siena

    the site is in italian but it basically says that it was found at Volterra (a nearby town) after a raid and that was the most prestigious of the helm the "Bearded Of the People's Chief".

    Maybe it's more accurate if pisa or siena or firenze gets it

  6. #6

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    Quote Originally Posted by Pascià View Post
    I'm from siena which wasn't under papal rule but it's an italian city however.
    I've seen this at the museum, it was more a parade thing and of the 14th/15th century, but for a late period officer it would be cool
    http://www.sienafree.it/sinalunga/21...onale-di-siena

    the site is in italian but it basically says that it was found at Volterra (a nearby town) after a raid and that was the most prestigious of the helm the "Bearded Of the People's Chief".

    Maybe it's more accurate if pisa or siena or firenze gets it
    That's a very cool helmet! Even if I don't use that one exactly, I can use it as a base to make an elaborate helmet tailor-made for the Papal commanders. Do you have any good information on the medieval armies in Central Italy? I've got an outline so far, but any additional information on troop types and equipment is very much appreciated, whether it is in English or Italian.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    Well, after the kingdoms that united northern-central italy Tuscany was fractioned in trade city. Pisa was the absolute power of the sea in tuscany for a really long times until genoa "out traded" them. The army was made of semi volunteers
    In Siena the city was and is still today, divided in "contrade" wich were district. Every contrada had to give a certain number of soldiers (500 footmen the poorest contrada, 2000 footman and 100 horsemen the more rich and aristocratic) this in exchange of the protection of the city's wall. But in larger wars (very rare) there were a lots mercenary both muslim/anatolian/greeks in golden age of Pisa and german/french/aragonese in the early Renaissance (the helm was used in a battle of Aragonese and Sienese against Florentines and French for example).
    In the papal states a very little portion of the people were soldiers (just some city guard at times) a lot of the army was composed of volunteers from other countries (mainly german and french. And swiss obviously) and mercenaries.
    It would be very cool if you could choose to be guelph or ghibelline as an italian city or a christian country and decide to give volunteers to the pope or the empire.
    Siena changed sides three times for example just to be enemy of florence. Tomorrow I'll go to the museum and if possible give you other photos of armors

  8. #8

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States



    Found this photos in my phone

  9. #9

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    Quote Originally Posted by Pascià View Post
    Found this photos in my phone
    Fantastic! Do you the dating on those, some items definitely look more Early Modern? Might just be the lighting, but that last helmet looks very Roman, I love it.

  10. #10
    Tiro
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    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    Quote Originally Posted by zsimmortal View Post
    Fantastic! Do you the dating on those, some items definitely look more Early Modern? Might just be the lighting, but that last helmet looks very Roman, I love it.
    You should definitely google 15th century Italian white armor, you will love its asymmetrical shape too.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    They all look like museum replicas. I'm just as wary of museum replicas as I am with Osprey Illustrations when it comes to the quality of source.

  12. #12
    Laetus
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    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    Sureley one can assume that museums are staffed by professionals who want to be as correct as they can when portraying the past, and consequently muesum exhibits are a pretty good source?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    Quote Originally Posted by anders99 View Post
    Sureley one can assume that museums are staffed by professionals who want to be as correct as they can when portraying the past, and consequently muesum exhibits are a pretty good source?
    In recent years, that is the case with (modernized) museums. That's rather the exception than the rule. For most of the 19th and 20th century, museums have basically made up. They found a heap of armour, maybe in big piles (like the Metropolitan Museums of Art in north America). Using their own discretion, they smashed the items together with duct tape and called it a day. There's still a lot of museums which uses these older compromised elements. I'm describing the extreme, so there's a lot of stuff which falls in the middle of "we don't really know all that we wish we'd knew", but the amount of complete medieval armours is less than a dozen. The great majority is made up of museums collectors who have either modified or assembled bits and pieces which has nothing to do with each other. Some are contemporary comp. from different walks of life, others originate from the Victorians period.

    Armorial Adjuncts": Metropolitan Museum Journal, v. 24 (1989), by Dietrich Von Bothmer gives a good detail of this subject.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The interior of the Military Museum in 1920, showing the great stores of helmets, armor parts, and swords, mostly of European origin (photos: B. Dean)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    The courtyard of the Military Museum in 1920, showing the unpacking of crates of rusted armor parts of both European and Islamic origin (photos: B. Dean)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    A pile of armor parts, apparently in the courtyard of the Military Museum, 1920 (photo: B. Dean)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    The result is something like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    A suit of armour produced by five workshops: Wallace Collection A20, by Alan Williams/David Edge, is another classic example of a comp. museums armour.

    ​~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; April 01, 2017 at 08:58 AM.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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  14. #14
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    What about these armours for Dukes in the service of the Pope?



    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.p...9936999896990/

    Also maybe the late 15th century begining of 16th century Italian Anime/Anima armor trying to replicate Roman Plate and Segmentata taken afterwards by the Germans as well.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    Even if some of the mod models are already inspired by these pieces, I'd like to recommend the website Royal Armouries Collections. Their database seems to be incomplete, particularly concerning the XVth century, but there are some elements that could be useful, not only for the work on italian factions but also western european and even eastern ones.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...y&fplace=Italy

  16. #16

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    i saw in a video about forging maces that in crusades clergy warrior were using mace "because this weapon wasn't spreading blood" if u do a special-based clergy unit they should be equiped with mace.

    i found a discussiion with some info:

    http://historum.com/european-history...ed-forces.html

    I would start from the Papal Navy. There are mentions of it in late Middle Ages, but probably the most important moment of its history was its participation to the sea battle at Lepanto, even if in little numbers [Marcantonio Colonna was the admiral in that expedition and he was also the general captain of the Papal Navy].

    Regarding the Army, it was Pope Leone IX, in 1049 CE, to decide to have a regular army [before of that date, the State of the Church enjoyed the military aids of its allies and protectors]. The Army of the Pope was composed by an aristocratic cavalry and a Roman militia. This structures remained unvaried until 1320 CE.



    Anyway, already in that period mercenaries appeared and the Roman Army had two auxiliary ranks of mercenary cavalry [German and French].

    After 1320, the State of the Church decided to have no more a permanent Army, but it formed armies for specific operations [today we would call them "task forces"!] made by volunteers and mercenaries.


    but there isn't many historrical art about their war with SERG .

  17. #17

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    For the sake of keeping everyone on the same page, this is what I have on the Papal armies specifically, which is as good as it gets barring access to the Waley article :

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


















    Other kinds of similar information is always greatly appreciated. Visuals, whether artifacts, carvings or manuscript illustrations, are very important and I'd love to accumulate more of them, especially for the earlier eras (13th and 14th century), as 15th century stuff is much more prevalent.
    Last edited by zsimmortal; March 29, 2017 at 04:19 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    I agree with Anders99, museums have no reason at all to invent new armours or weapons for the sake of them looking better. That kind of defeats the purpose of a museum.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    I found some websites and pictures that you could find interesting; the soldiers that are pictured are not specifically Romans most of the time, but I guess their equipment was not very different from that of other Italians. I have not found XIIIth century italian soldiers depictions yet and only a handful of XIVth century ones, I rather found XVth century representations.
    Frescoes and tapestries seem to be underestimated sources of informations.
    Of course the artistic representations should be manipulated with caution, it is a commonplace that illuminators and painters from the Middle Ages didn't have the preoccupation of representing accurate or realistic scenes, but I guess I do not teach you anything.

    This website covers XIVth to XVth centuries with some paintings amongst the most well-known :
    http://www.warfare2.netai.net/14/Ita...4thCentury.htm


    Scenes from the Massacre of the Innocents fresco in the Sant'Abbondio basilica, Côme (1315-1324) :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Knight of Pratro, XIVth century, Tuscany, probably painted by Pacino di Buonaguida :
    https://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illumin...id&IllID=42522


    Codex Capodilista, equestrian armorial intended for Transelgardi, Forzate and Capodilista families, around 1435; some of the coats of arms are fictional (sorry but I only found a french page mentioning it, many of its illuminations are hosted on gettyimages) :
    http://behydezell.com/article/creati...ex-capodilista


    Paintings from the church of St Stephan in Obermontani, Morter, Italy, 1400-1410, obviously very close to german-speaking countries :
    http://armourinart.com/119/165/


    Saint Georges by Andrea Mantegna, around 1460 :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Finally, and even if many of them are already depicted in the mod with few variants, some XVth century italian helmets :

    Barbute from the Chalcis venetian garrison, 1350-1420 (they don't say anything about the coat of mail's origin) :
    http://www.clevelandart.org/art/1923.1065?f[0]=object_location:Gallery%20210


    Sallet from the venetian garrison of Chalcis, mid-XVth century :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Italian sallet, around 1450-1470 :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Italian great bassinet, XVth century (sorry but I did not found a smallest image) :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Italian great bassinet, early XVth century :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Milanese "armet à rondelle", XVth century :
    http://www.clevelandart.org/art/1916...m=All&page=1&f[0]=object_location:Gallery%20210

  20. #20
    Ltd.'s Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Research Thread : The Papal States

    well, then let's hope that the guys behind these examples were temporarily distracted when doing the exhibit...

    http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17670

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