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Thread: HRR information repertory

  1. #21
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Damn, I missed it
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  2. #22
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    Oh and what about Bohemia? Does the ruler there get a "König von Böhmen" title?
    Bohemia - I think "Rex Bohemiae" is better. And "Comes Olomucii" as well. Both provinces should be distinguished (no Herzog or Graf) as they stayed Slavic (unlike Brandenburg or Meklemburg).
    Olomuc ___ Comes Olomucii ___ In charge of ___ the land of forests.
    Prague ___ Rex Bohemiae ___ In charge of ___ the land of men fighting enemies bravely, digging silver deep, praying to God devotedly.
    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    Bohemia: Agreed.
    I have a second thought given that I've learnt Moravia became a march in 1182.
    I think it should be "Marchio Olomuciensis" or "Comes terminalis Olomuciensis" link
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 14, 2017 at 01:00 AM.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    So the agreed modifications for 1132 would are:
    - Slav rebels for three provinces: Meklemburg (Liubice), Brandenburg (Brandenburg), Szczecin (Pomorze).
    - Bremen province: Westfalen
    - Hamburg province: Sachsen
    - Liubice province: Meklemburg
    - Coellen province: Niederlothringen
    - Trier province: Oberlothringen
    - Frankfurt province: Nordfranken
    -
    Speyer province:Südfranken
    - Basel province: Helvetia (title: Graf Helvetiae)
    - Ulm province: Schwaben

    Furthermore, I wonder - taking into account that Liubice are in the game and only later the historically-playing player is supposed to change this name into Luebeck - if we shouldn't call the city of Brandenburg in Slavic: Brennabor. Then a player playing HRE would rename it Brandenburg and a player playing Poland - Branibór.
    Two other options / questions popped to my mind after having seen it in the Titatnium:
    - if Brandenburg shouldn't be "Nordmark", and
    - if Oberlothringen shouldn't be "Rheinland" (and then Niderlothringen - > Lothringen). This might be anachronistic though, I have little clue about use of those names in the Middle Ages...
    I'm not sure, it's just an idea to be checked.

  4. #24
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by MWY View Post
    Titles:
    Mostly good and fitting. I also like latin ones but then we have to find latin names for all the provinces... which might be difficult.
    Utrecht should be "Graf von Holland".
    Can't say I agree here. It's of course difficult to pick one as the in-game region covers the County of Holland, the Prince-bishopric of Utrecht, the County and later Duchy of Guelders and the Lordship of Frisia but Holland wasn't at all that powerful at the time. It only became the dominant force from the late Middle Ages onward. Seeing as Utrecht was by far the most important city in the region and the Prince-bishop actually held the most land of the four entities I'd go with that as the title, or lord of Utrecht if you don't want to go with prince-bishops. Little sense to have the title in German, so those would be "prins-bischop van Utrecht" or "heer van Utrecht" respectively in Dutch. Similarly, the duke of Brabant would be "hertog van Brabant".
    If you do wish to go with the count of Holland that would be "graaf van Holland" in Dutch.
    Last edited by lolIsuck; September 25, 2017 at 06:16 AM.

  5. #25
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by lolIsuck View Post
    Can't say I agree here. It's of course difficult to pick one as the in-game region covers the County of Holland, the Prince-bishopric of Utrecht, the County and later Duchy of Guelders and the Lordship of Frisia but Holland wasn't at all that powerful at the time. It only became the dominant force from the late Middle Ages onward. Seeing as Utrecht was by far the most important city in the region and the Prince-bishop actually held the most land of the four entities I'd go with that as the title, or lord of Utrecht if you don't want to go with prince-bishops. Little sense to have the title in German, so those would be "prins-bischop van Utrecht" or "heer van Utrecht" respectively in Dutch. Similarly, the duke of Brabant would be "hertog van Brabant".
    If you do wish to go with the count of Holland that would be "graaf van Holland" in Dutch.
    Thanks, loll. I think we're going according to your logic. Have a look at the modification's assumptions, inter alia:
    * since titles of one religion will be used by many different factions there's a need to maintain a kind of coherence in naming. Therefore I'll avoid using the names which wouldn't be used in a kind of universal names. For instance, the Polish and Hungarian language versions will be replaced with the Latin ones (which were used, anyway). For Spain all the names should be in Spanish, for Scandinavia in (Old) Norse, for Italy in Latin, British islands in English etc. For provinces which were beyond the horizon of conquest, I'll use the generic names, sometimes with pertinent adjustments (an Orthodox name for a lord of Calais? - Knyaz Kalaiskyi)
    * keep in mind that in the M2TW and SSHIP there're agents called "priests" (bishops, cardinals), so ecclesiastical titles ("Archbishop of something" cannot be used even if in many cases they'd be pertinent (like Archbishop of
    Estergom or Archbishop of Trier or Archbishop of Riga). Besides it would be kind of funny having generals with a title "Archbishop" marrying princesses and having a bunch of children.
    As you can see in the entry there, the current plan is for "Herzog von Utrecht"

  6. #26
    UndeadSoldier13's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Not sure how much development/work has gone into the HRE since the start of this thread 8 months ago, so anything I could be able to contribute might be moot by this point. But if the topic at hand is still in an ongoing process, I own/have read a couple of historical books that go into almost gratuitous detail of the multiple aspects of the HRE. Maps by era, bloodlines, elections and anti-kings, etc.

    I'd be happy to provide as much information as I can, especially with how annoyed I was getting with each new emperor getting the "Usurper" trait.

  7. #27
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Thanks for your offer
    Any useful info is always welcome. Feel free to post here
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  8. #28
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by UndeadSoldier13 View Post
    Not sure how much development/work has gone into the HRE since the start of this thread 8 months ago, so anything I could be able to contribute might be moot by this point. But if the topic at hand is still in an ongoing process, I own/have read a couple of historical books that go into almost gratuitous detail of the multiple aspects of the HRE. Maps by era, bloodlines, elections and anti-kings, etc.

    I'd be happy to provide as much information as I can, especially with how annoyed I was getting with each new emperor getting the "Usurper" trait.
    A constant work is checking whether the Coat of Arms are right for the period (12 century, or later). You may have a look at this entry.
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  9. #29
    Eidgeniesser's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    About the Swabia Regions:

    First off, thanks for giving Basel its rightful place in history . You did your research well indeed. And not only that: The first Staufen Emperor is its governor. A dream come true . Please never change that (even though as mentioned Strassbourg, Colmar or possibly Zurich or Geneve could be contenders (don't do Zurich ) ). It was a bishopric founded by a friend of Charlemagne so a relatively old "city", the Salian and Staufen portal to their burgundian kingdom and on the most important north-south trading lanes of the high MA HRE. Its neither swiss nor alsatian, neither swabian nor burgundian and it represents the SSHIP region of Lower Swabia very well. - local patriotism off- Also as stated it makes sense for gameplay reasons..


    For region and title names I really wouldn't do anything related to Switzerland (Helvetia is a renaissance creation). It simply wasnt a concept even long after 1291. The divide between Swabia and (Upper/Lower) Burgundy makes more sense throughout the MA. Also Alsace is not part of Helvetia nor the other way around and Basel didn't join the Swiss until the end of the M2TW time frame.


    My two suggestions would be:


    1. Keep the current region names as it represents the actual power of the Dukes of Swabia. But change the title trait "Duke of Swabia" to Upper Swabia and instead of the bishops cane of Basel you give it the three Staufen/Würtemberg lions as coat of arms. A further option: Ulm could be changed to a castle or moat and bailey two clicks to the north of Ulm called Staufen or some other castle in that region and Nurnberg changed into a city.


    (Long) explanation: As far as I know there were only two ducal dynasties who controlled the Stem-Duchy Swabia: The Rheinfelden and the Staufen, with the former starting out around Basel and the latter north of Ulm (except new evidence shows that the Staufen might have "started out" in the region around Schlettstadt/Elsass). But I think in both case the powerbase of the Dukes was in Upper Swabia, while the SSHIP region of lower swabia was mostly divided between bishoprics, free cities and minor counts. The two exceptions being the Zähringer and much later the growing Eidgenossen. In general though the power of the Dukes of Swabia was in Upper Swabia, while Lower Swabia was more loosely controlled by them and received more attention only when the Dukes of Swabia became Emerors. Upper Swabia was the basis of the feudal power of the Staufen Emperors and apart from Konstanz, Augsburg and Ulm in the southeast and maybe Stuttgart there werent as many urban centres as in Lower Swabia. It would also help to supply the western part of the Empire with feudal troops, while still being remote enough, so that the HRE has problem to supply its urban underbelly in Western Germany. Nurnberg on the other hand was fortified extremely well, yes, but it was also one of the largest and most prosperous cities in Germany.


    2. The other suggestion would a be strict representation of dejure regions (and a little more work):
    Legally Basel was a part of the Kingdom of Burgundy according to a 10th century treaty.
    So you could change Upper Swabia to "Schwaben" and Lower Swabia to "Palatinate de Haute Bourgogne" (Or Upper Burgundy or some variation), take away Romandie and Savoy from the Lyon region and give Eastern Switzerland and Elsass to "Schwaben" or possibly Elsass to the Speyer region for gameplay reasons. This region would be larger that the actually Palatinate but it could represent the "Rektor von Burgund" position that the Comtes palatins and the Zähringers held for some time. Then you could create a new title anciliary "Comte Palatin" with the bishops cane of Basel as coat of arms and give "Duke of Swabia" to Ulm as above.

    This way Basel, Lyons and Arles could represent the Kingdom of Arelat. And later when the French take Arles and Lyons, the Basel region could represent the leftover Upper Burgundy with the Palatinate, Savoy and former "Zähringia" So it could represent the old de jure kingdoms of Upper and Lower Burgundy as well as the later change of territory which was roughly along the same lines.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdo...burgund_EN.png

  10. #30
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    ^^ Thanks for that. Very interesting
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  11. #31
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Hi Eidgeniesser,
    Thanks for your input and let's continue on this having in mind our constraints.
    We start 1132, but the game is for 12-16th centuries. So take into account this period, not the former one. We need to strike a balance between names
    I don't think changes of the province borders are possible - this usually opens a can of worms. Can be done only if the mapper is crazy on making such changes ;-)
    The provinces are big, include different lands and this is a challenge to find a proper name. In many cases, there exists none. We need to find out what's the most reasonable one.
    Many settlements are also just guesses (Kernave in 12c.), but in Western Europe the choice is almost always a problem of riches: so many cities. It's very arbitrary what to chose.

    The question is:
    - how does it square with your map from the 10th century? It's not in our period of time.
    - how should we think about future Switzerland? You play the game well in 13-15 century when Helvetia would make sense. Is "Palatinate de Haute Bourgogne" more appropriate for this period? I don't mean "legally", but in reality. The fact that's a Renaissance expression doesn't matter so much - for most of the provinces we've got names that are later creations. For many we've got just artificial creations, look at the Cuman lands.
    - the provinces are big and include also other lands that were historically rarely together - the example of Elsass). You have to live with it, and find something that is closest to reality.

    If you'd have time for some research for the titles (as you did with Coats of Arms), this would be very useful.
    Eg. what do you think about Karinthia region and it's capital? Friesach was destroyed at the end of 13c. but it's difficult to find anything more appropriate.


    My motto for all the modding is: It's better to be roughly right, than perfectly wrong.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 06, 2018 at 12:41 PM.

  12. #32
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Where did you find that Kernave is a guess?
    I've spent hours to find good and verified sources in English. Even if it became the 1st lithuanian capital during the 13th century (1253 AD), the settlement was founded obviously much earlier. That's the most reasonable choice for that faction. So no, it is not a guess.
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  13. #33
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Where did you find that Kernave is a guess?
    I've spent hours to find good and verified sources in English. Even if it became the 1st lithuanian capital during the 13th century (1253 AD), the settlement was founded obviously much earlier. That's the most reasonable choice for that faction. So no, it is not a guess.
    I've even been to Kernave, nice 5 hills with wooden floors between. The earliest findings are from the Roman times, afair. It was a settlement for centuries, no doubt.
    The problem is with the social structure of the early Lithuanian tribes. In 12c we don't know which settlement was a dominant one. Perhaps there was no dominant one, bar anything close to the concept of a "capital". What we've got in the sources is that it was a place where Mindaugas in mid-13c. resided. It was a significant settlement onwards as well, until in 14c the "dominant' settlement moved to Kaunas, and then to Vilnius.
    So Kernave is "historical" (from the Teutonic sources, I think, but also something in Rome in the papal archives?) for mid 13c, but for our time, 1st half of 12c, it's a guess.
    Obviously, you're right that's the most reasonable choice for that faction.

  14. #34
    Eidgeniesser's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    New Proposals:

    1. Keep it and translate: Niederschwaben (LS), Oberschwaben (US)
    -> Give title "Herzog von Schwaben" to Oberschwaben and optionally change Ulm province capital type to castle and Nurnberg to city as I suggested above.
    No title in Basel, Niederschwaben

    2. Province names: Alemannia (LS), Schwaben (US)

    3. Oberrheingau/Hochrheingau (LS), Schwaben (US)

    Titles:

    "Herzog von Schwaben" to Schwaben

    If there should be a title for every region then here are some possible titles in Alemannia/Oberrheingau:
    1. "Graf von Habsburg", Habsburg is in the territory and near Basel, the Habsburgs were "swiss" nobles (again arguably alsatian or possibly even from the domain of Basel) and they even tried to take Basel on several occasions possibly in order to make it their residential city, Basel could have been Vienna! . Also they would eventually gobble up or excert control over most of the SSHIP region of Lower Swabia
    2. "Graf von Montbeliard" or "Graf von Ferette/Pfirt" being the two feudal holdings nearest to Basel, which were somtimes bishops or Burghermeisters of Basel but they were very small
    3. Duke tier titles, rather unrelated to Basel: "Landgraf von Elsass" or simply "Herzog von Elsass" (both rather semi-historic, combining Ldgft von Nieder- and Oberelsass) or "Graf or Herzog von Zähringen" (it wasnt a real Duchy but sometimes called that, which was mostly in the SSHIP Dauphine region and formed the territory of Berne, the main expansive power in the Alte Eidgenossenschaft, after the Zähringers died out in the 1200s) or again "Comte Palatin de Haute Bourgogne", because that had the most history, going to the French and the Duchy of Burgundy, then first Austrian and later Spanish Habsburgs, then back to the French.
    4. Not historical or strictly feudal: "Herr von Basel" or "Burghermeister von Basel" (the "Mayor" as in most medieval towns was a noble of some sorts and with the former the title is left extremely vague and might include direct ducal or imperial rule, maybe i'll find a better title for it than "Herr"), "Dux Alemanniae" (IIRC a carolingian title, but synonomous to Duke of Swabia, but it could still work with Alemannia/Schwaben)

    -So on second thought Comte Palatin is probably not the best choice as the SSHIP region mostly represents one half of the Duchy of Swabia, with Dauphine covering allmost all of Upper Burgundy. So you could tie the title very closely to Basel with options 2 or 4, Herzog von Zähringen would best represent the swiss (same CoA as the capital berne) but not represent the rest of the region and would be wrong in Basel up until 1501. I would suggest Landgraf von Elsass, as its more closely tied to Basel and to Swabia at the same time, the most stable and apart from the Zähringers the strongest feudal title in the SSHIP region, which at the same time would represent the strong fragmentation of the region after the collapse of the Duchy of Swabia in the late 13th century. And its somewhere between count and duke (of Swabia for instance). But you could also argue for "Graf von Habsburg", but that would be more bound to the dynasty...

    About Switzerland: If you are playing the HRE or an other monarchy I don't think there should be a title representing an alliance of cities, valleys and towns except if you go through with it in other places too (Burgermeisters, Bishops and so on). The Alte Eidgenossenschaft would have to be represented some other way because even they would have rather understood themselves as Alemannic rather than Helvetic for most of the M2TW timeframe. -> Suggestion (dont know if it could be done): Maybe after 1300 the title could be accompanied by a trait called "13 Orte der Eidgenossen" giving the title holder, public order problems but mercenary discount or more morale for mercenaries or something of the sort.

  15. #35
    Eidgeniesser's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    As you asked I looked through the list and marked what I would change (underscored). I always tried to find the titles which held actual power in the SSHIP region for a long period of time rather than titles that describe a greater (geographical) region (for instance Niederlothringen). I'm specialised in SE Germany so for the other parts of the Empire its more of a educated guess.

    VI. Germania

    Brandenburg (Brandenburg)
    PT: Markgraf von Brandenburg
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Brandenburg.
    Province name:
    Brandenburg.

    Liubice (Holstein)
    PT: Markgraf von Meklemburg
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Liubice/Lübeck/Lübeck
    Province name: Mecklenburg (sticking to new german)


    Hamburg (Nord Sachsen)
    PT: Herzog von Braunschweig or Herzog von Sachsen? (Braunschweig-Lüneburg was the name of the Welf Duchy in the High MA)
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Hamburg
    Province name: Sachsen.

    Bremen
    (Saxony)
    PT: Herzog von Westfalen
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Bremen (or Slavic Brema)
    Province name: should be changed to Westfalen.


    Coellen(Lower Lorraine)
    PT: Herzog von Niederlothringen or Herzog von Luxemburg (I’m not sure but I think Oberlothringen was very short lived, more or less „nominal“ and doesn’t overlap to much with the SSHIP region. Luxemburg has a lot of history and was always important, Capital at trier might be an issue though)

    (If you change to Hzg. von Luxemburg then Lothringen would be a good choice throughout the M2TW period)
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Coellen
    Province name: should be changed to Niederlothringen

    Trier(Upper Lorraine)
    PT: Herzog von Oberlothringen or Herzog von Lothringen (later duc de lorraine)
    (If you change to Hzg. von Luxemburg then Lothringen would be a good choice throughout the M2TW period)
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Trier.
    Province name:
    should be changed to Oberlothringen



    Frankurt (Franconia)
    PT: Maybe Statthalter von Franken? Otherwise how about Landgraf von Hessen

    (Would have to be Erzbischof von Mainz IIRC, „Statthalter“ because the Ebf was entrusted with the governance of large parts of Franconia/ Hessen was a strong feudal entity throughout the M2TW period and is especially important later on)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Frankfurt.
    Province name:
    Franken

    Speyer (Rhein)
    PT: Pfalzgraf (am Rhein)
    (Pfalzgrafschaft am Rhein would seem to be the right choice, very powerful and one of the later 7 electors)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Speyer
    Province name: Rheinfranken or Rheinpfalz or Kurpfalz or Speyergau


    Basel (Lower Swabia)
    PT: Landgraf von Elsass or Graf von Habsburg (I already wrote two quite long ramblings on this one )


    ...But here I go again: Being Swiss myself I really want to stress that you don’t need to represent Switzerland apart from Basel and swiss mercenaries. Even in the 1500s the Eidgenossenschaft was an alliance system like many others (eg. Schwäbischer Städtebund). If you really want a swiss title these would be the least ahistoric fiction IMO: (Erster) Landamann der 13 Orte or (Erster) Landamann der Eidgenossen or Herr/Burghermeister von Basel (see my essays above, other feudal titles near Basel I forgot: Graf von Kyburg, von Frohburg).

    CoA:
    Settlement name: Basel.
    Province name:
    Niederschwaben or Alemannia (same here)


    Ulm (Upper Swabia)
    PT: Herzog von Schwaben
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Ulm, Staufen (Castle, one or two clicks to the north)
    Province name: Oberschwaben or Schwaben

    Nuoremberc(Nordgau)
    PT: Burggraf von Nürnberg (Nürnberg was always a powerful city, later there was a county)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Nürnberg
    Province name: Nordgau (or maybe Ostfranken?)

    Regensburg
    (Bavaria)
    PT: Herzog von Bayern
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Regensburg
    Province name: Bayern


    Wien(Austria)
    PT: Markgraf von Österreich
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Wien
    Province name:
    Maybe Ostmark?

    Freiberg (Kärnten)
    PT: Herzog von Kärnten
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Friesach

    Utrecht (Friesland)
    PT: Herzog von Utrecht
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Utrecht
    Province name: Friesland

    Loven (Brabant)
    PT: Herzog von Brabant
    CoA:
    Settlement name:
    Loven.
    Province name:
    Brabant.

    Praha (Bohemia)
    PT: König von Böhmen (Since it was controlled by the Luxembergs after 1310 and later the Habsburgs, the german name might fit here)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Praha
    Province name:
    Bohemia.

    Olomuc (Moravia)
    PT: Marchio Olomuciensis (from 1182 Moravia was technically a march)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Olomóc. (that's right. A few medieval versions: Olomuc, Olomucz, Olomuz)
    Province name:
    Moravia.



    About Burgundy:

    Lyons (Dauphine)
    PT: Rex Burgundum or Herzog von Savoyen, or Comte Palatin de Haute- Bourgogne
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Lyons
    Province name: Burgundia (superiore)

    Arles (Provence
    PT: Comes Provincialis or Rex Burgundum or Rex Arelatis
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Arles
    Province name: Provence, Arelat or Burgundia (inferiore) (please forgive my rusty latin)
    Last edited by Eidgeniesser; April 10, 2018 at 10:22 AM.

  16. #36
    Eidgeniesser's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    About questions 4 and 5:

    4. IMO: For the classical Empire (Salian and Staufen) up to the 13th century succesion was actually hereditary to a certain degree with minor intermezzos (eg. Lothar von Supplingenburg, Otto IV.). The Salian had been elected after the Ottonians died out and after the Salians went extinct themselves the Staufen had a hard time pressing the claim to the Imperial throne they had inherited from the Salians.

    Generally the succesion worked like this before 1356: The 5-10 most powerful nobles of the 4 Stem-Duchies came together and IIRC voted as blocks. Since this wasn't really formalized it usually ment that a future emperor would simply try to get the most powerful nobles of the Empire on his side and "force" his election. Also the pope had a signifikant influence of course. But in effect the Ottonians, Salians and Staufen ruled continuosly even though especially the Staufen lost the throne multiple times.
    After that was the Interregnum and then the golden Bulla formalized the election the way it is known generally.

    Gameplay:

    I really appreciate what has been done to represent the structure and problems of the HRE within the constraints of the M2TW engine, but I have an issue: The M2TW engine .
    Specifically the horrors of family management (which is an important part of a medieval game as far as I'm concerned):
    Since the SSHIP family of the HRE is so huge and spans multiple families I was never able to manage the Imperial family to my satisfaction except if I killed off everybody else.

    My personal solution is the following:
    Staufen family only (You've probably guessed by now that I'm a huge fanboy) with 2 adult males with 3 sons and 5 daughters (to marry of to possible future imperial dynasties). These characters could all be historical if the game would start in 1136, but these four years difference don't really hurt.
    Very high disloyalty of all generals.
    Maybe I will look at introducing traits: "Gegenkönig" (disloyalty and -100% income, no movement, "contageous", very high unrest->settlement rebels), "Parteigänger des Gegenkönigs" (highest disloyalty, no movement, - income, contaminated by Gegenkönig) and "Popes candidate fo Emperor" and "Imperial Visit" (countering the Gegenkönig and Disloyalty traits, lasts for 5 turns after family member has left the postion of the general (if possible))

    My suggestions for the SSHIP (or a possible HRE submod):

    The problem is that the civil war mechanics only works when the crown switches families (correct me if I'm wrong).
    To keep the really cool civil war mechanic in the game the Imperial families could be reduced to Staufen and Welf (leave out oldenburg, askanier, kärnten, österrreich) and the general high disloyalty could be kept.

    This new system could represent the "Voyager Emperors" of the High MA HRE: You rely solely on your family members and there holdings, while the feudal lords just sit in their castles. You have to send your family members around the empire to kill rebels and capture settlements. And if you reign long and successfully enough the generals will start to become useful. Income is also reduced drastically. This way the enormity of the HRE is much more a problem than an advantage. This would probably need a lot of testing especially for the AI HRE, so you/I could start with a submod for HRE playthroughs only.

    Questions:
    Is it possible to have every general receive a disloyalty trait when he spawns?
    Is it possible for disloyal generals to go rebel? And even take the settlement they rule with them? If so this should happen constantly in the HRE.

  17. #37
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Hi Eidgeniesser,
    thanks for all your input. For the geographical ones - I've reviewed my entry in the PTF submod, and changed many of them. Ironically, the thing that doesn't convince me is the non-use of Helvetia for the province... It still sounds better to me, and is a similar case with Friesland (au rebours though). Also moving Ulm to Staufen is not a good idea, what was also discussed in this thread. Konig von Bohmen is ausgeschlossen because title "king" is reserved for the kings.

    I've got some questions - if you'd be willing to make some research:
    - Landgraf von Hessen - whey this "Land" started to be used?
    - when the title "Pfalzgraf" started to be used?
    - what was used "Herzog von Luxemburg" or "Graf von Luxemburg" or maybe "Duc" ?
    - historically: should it be d'Lorraine or de Lorraine?
    - when the name "Alemannia" was actually in use? (I thought it would be phased out in 11c.)
    - when was the name "Rheinfranken" in use?
    - when was Ostmark used, and when it started to be Oesterreich? (I thought it was end of 10
    - when "Stathouter" started to be used in Friesland provinces? Each of them had one, so maybe this would be an alternative to Herzog von Utrecht (it was the bishop, afaik)
    I'm also interested if you've got some information about Hamburg - I'm not sure if the Sachsen main settlement shouldn't be Magdeburg?

    Now on the last entry:
    - on the HRE mechanisms - there's a mod Das Heilige Römische Reich. It's unfinished (I've tried to play it, but afair the 0.8 broke down - what shows the major and definitive advantage of the SSHIP: it's working.)
    - on the elections - I blissfully assume that the M2TW engine consists actually of 5-10 most powerful nobles. They sit just under the keyboard of my computer.
    - family management - I haven't checked HRE family since this faction seemed to me always boring, I prefer factions that start small or with a weak economy. Anyway 2-4 generals. then I may develop them, and I can manage my tree by not accepting marriages and adoptions. My home rule is not to kill anybody, though.
    - your proposal on the Staufens looks interesting. Are all of them in-game?
    - the civil war mechanics works always, but the usurper problems kick in when there's a change of the FL. I think he might still be of the same family, but I haven't analyzed it.
    - Staufen-Welf - interesting, but I think you've got to make your own submod for this.
    - disloyalty traits - they're perfectly possible to give it to each HRR general that spawns if coded.
    - disloyal general may perfectly rebel if they've got low Loyalty and they're outside any settlement. Yes, I think it should happen often.

    BTW - with those un-loyalties it should be the case with the Kievan Rus.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 10, 2018 at 03:26 PM.
    For those who want to play a historical mod in a medieval setting:
    try the Stainless Steel Historical Improvement Project,
    or the Broken Crescent + Buff and Shine (if you'd like to play in Levant).
    ..........................................................................................................................................................................
    Reviews of the mods: SSHIP (2018), Wrath of the Norsemen (2018), Broken Crescent (2018).
    Thrones of Britannia: review, opinion on the battles, ideas for modding.
    Minimods included in the SSHIP 096: Generals' Traits, Provincial Titles, Offices, Crowns.
    Short guides for the SSHIP: population growth, forts and watchtowers.
    Pros and cons of having Merchants in an M2TW mod.
    Home rules for playing a game without exploiting the M2TW engine deficiencies.
    Dominant strategy in Attila TW and Rome 2 TW: “Sniping groups of armies”.

  18. #38
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    It should be "de Lorraine". We only use the d' when the next letter is a, e, i, o, u or y in French
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader


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  19. #39
    Eidgeniesser's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    -Landgraf dates back to the early MA.
    -Pfalzgraf/Comte palatin was a carolingian invention (or even earlier) and Pfalzgraf am Rhein existed from 1087-1806.
    Both types of titles became imperial principalities (same rank as duchies) in the 16th century reorganisation of the HRE, so they were used for the whole M2TW period.
    -Herzog von Luxemburg only in the early 14th century, so it would be Graf von Luxemburg. On the other hand it would be a minor inaccuracy and Graf is a lower title than the rest.
    The Duc/Herzog question is tricky, I'll try to find that out. If I had to guess, its most probably Herzog if in a imperial document but which language the Dukes spoke I don't know. The German version would actually be Herzog von Lützelburg. maybe you could compromise: Herzog von Luxembourg.
    -Duc de Lorraine. Maybe you could compromise: Herzog von Lorraine (Trier and most of the region were german speaking (except Lorraine)
    -About Rheinfranken:
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostfra...Ostfranken.png
    Hard to say, but its not that important for the province name is it? The modern province is called Rheinland-Pfalz, theres the Pfalzgraf am/bei Rhein, and the Salian were considered a rheinfränkische dynasty, so fairly near to 1132. Rheinland, Pfalz, Kurpfalz and Rheinfranken are very rougly the same region, just make sure you have Rhein and Pfalz somewhere in there
    -Yeah, Ostmark is wrong. Stick with Österreich.
    -When Stathouter/Statthalter was used I don't know, neither if it would be the correct term. I would suggest it as a semi-fictional (AFAIK) generalisation of nobles (or there deputies) directly controlling towns.

    Now about that Helvetien :

    Alemannia phased out in the 11th century, you're right, but it was always used synonomously. I suggested this because, both provinces formed the Duchy of Swabia (formerly Alemannia), but only Upper Swabia is really considered Swabia after the collaps of that duchy.
    This leads to my Alemannia vs Helvetia argument:
    The Swabian Subdialect is a part of the Alemannic Dialect which spans exactly both SSHIP provinces and modern swiss are ethnically and linguistically Alemannic (Well Ethnogenesis and all, its a mix of course). The regions are not as random as you say: The alem. dialect spoken in modern Alsace and Switzerland is what survives of the tribe and its sucessor duchies and what connects the region.
    The nobility of both provinces considered themselves Alemannic Germans (or they would have if they had this modern concept ), were descendants of Alemans or Franks, and there was no continuity whatsoever with the celtic Helvetii. The region had never been known as Helvetia since the 1st century AD and Basel is technically not even in Helvetia, the tribes the region was named after was the Sequani (Maxima Sequanorum) or Rauraci (Augusta Raurica).

    This is the wiki on the Alemannic Dialect (written in said dialect ): https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannisch
    heres the map: https://als.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alema...lemannisch.png

    So to conclude: If you want the Swiss in the region you might call it Land der Eidgenossen, Waldstätten, Die dreizehn Orte, or simply Schweiz, Schweizerland or Aargau. If you change it to Helvetia/Graf von Helvetien you're being less historically accurate than vanilla. Helvetia is an explicitely anti-feudal creation of the renaissance, which really came in to use even later than that. The province name/title isn't linked to Basel, the SSHIP region nor even to the Eidgenossen of well beyond the M2TW timeframe in any way other than the modern state, so you might as well call it Confoederatio Helvetica. There are better fictional titles and as you said yourself a ton of historical titles and names which better describe large parts of or even the entire SSHIP region and its history. If none of the options and arguments above convince you, I suggest again to leave those regions be, simply translate them and move the title from Basel to Ulm. (This is all rhetorics, no offense intended )

  20. #40
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HRR information repertory

    Ok, you've convinced me. No Helvetia. Alamannia.
    Still not sure what title for Franken.
    The major problem with Herzog von Luxemburg for Nidedrlothringen is that Luxemburg is located in the Trier province (Oberl), actually.
    I've also got convinced by the king for Bohemia. But in Latin.

    How does the whole set look now?

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