Rome in the new DeI

[geala]

Early Rome is surrounded by factions that primarily rely on the hoplite or similar troops, from every direction, except the Gauls. Or the 'Greek method of warfare' if you prefer. I can't remember DeI's exact faction setup, but I'm just thinking in my mind, of who Rome actually fought in the 3rd century BC.

Pyrrhus used many Greek/'Italian'/Syracusan mercenaries, to go with the pike and elephants.

And it just shows your ignorance, that in 2017, you're dismissing wikipedia.

Here's a newsflash: The wikipedia editor community has a ton of Roman diehards who are interested in and involved in the articles. They're not perfect, but it's a fantastic resource for finding the lowest common denominator of mainstream, fundamentally agreed on facts. That you would dismiss it, just suggests to me that you haven't done much if any scholarly research in the last ten years, so as to know the relative worth of various sources. Wikipedia is just fine, when it comes to certain topics (the accuracy of which often determined by the size of the community involved in adding to and editing it). I would have no problem with a student citing it, for something basic and foundational.

The composition of the early Roman maniple army is one such fact. It isn't even a debate. It's just a basic fact. It's not a controversial opinion, and there isn't competing theories.

My reference to wikipedia wasn't to suggest it was the arbiter of all that is true, but anything that makes it onto there, where Rome is concerned, given the legion of people fanatically interested in the subject (which far outstrips other ancient/medieval/historical communities online), is basically the bar of common sense.

You can pick up any other relevant book or source, and find out the same information as to how the manipular army was equipped.

And as I've asked before, and /never/ had a response to: What book or source anywhere has ever suggested that hastati were primarily armed with spears? That's usually around the time people start claiming that hastati using spear is really a gameplay decision. But again. It's not even good gameplay.


...

I do not dismiss Wikipedia, it is just not a good argument to say, "if Wikipedia lists one theory (or undisputable fact), then all scholars are of the same opinion". Which they are in many cases not. There are also articles of differing quality on Wikipedia, some are breathtakingly knowledgable (as far as I can judge in the small fields I know a bit), some are less.

How Rome fought in the fourth c. BC and before is a kind of enigma, with contradictory evidence. The written sources are often not consistent with archaeological findings, the alleged structure of the Roman society and military are difficult to explain when you look what happened politically. It is doubted for example wether the Romans ever fought in a hoplite phalanx.

The last decades of the fourth century and the beginning of the third c. BC are better documented, however still cloudy. It is an enigma for example why the Romans failed miserably against the Samnites prior to 311 BC but from then on prevailed with relative ease. You can create a lot of more or less convincing theories but none is "sure". Another question, if the Romans created their new manipular army for dealing with hoplites, why were they so unsuccessful against king Cleomenes and his 5.000 Spartans which came to the aid of Tarentum in 303 BC?

As far as I know the word "pilum" appears the first time at about 293 BC. That says nothing, it could have been in use for centuries before. Or not. Is the use of javelins mandatory for a manipular army? Maybe. However the triarii formed part of it and carried spears. It is the most convincing theory that hastati and principes carried javelins, maybe after the example of the Celts or the Samnites or even the Roman clan-warbands of prior centuries. But there is no decisive proof that the hastati at 280 BC carried only javelins.

Lets look at one source, the famous Livy 8.8 about the manipular Roman army. He says that the Roman army consists of five departments, the hastati and the principes as antepilani, then another company of 180 consisting of triarii, then rorarii, then accensi. About the triarii it is said that they formed a wall of bristling spears. About the arms of the others nothing is said except for the hastati: they form the first line, 15 maniples, each maniple has 20 light-armed soldiers and light-armed are called those armed only with a spear (hasta) and javelins, the others carrying long shields. (8.8.5: prima acies hastati erant, manipuli quindecim, distantes inter se modicum spatium; manipulus leues uicenos milites, aliam turbam scutatorum habebat; leues autem, qui hastam tantum gaesaque gererent, uocabantur. From Perseus.uchicago.edu, stupid u instead of v makes reading even more difficult .)

So there is an ancient source (of debatable accuracy) that mentioned spear-armed hastati. Except "hasta" meant javelin which does not make much sense. It is not said how the hastati with a shield were armed.

I don't think that anybody can be and is sure about the Roman army of that time. There are just theories backed by some evidence and logical speculation. I think that the hastati carried mainly javelins and swords but I can live with the DeI decision to give them spears. It is not as if they had light sabers.

[Sonny WiFiHr]

"Sword" Hastati from begining brings one question.
Where would you stop?
Hellenic factions -easy meal (easy game). Now I usually don't go in Greece - High attrition (if you do not cheat with square). Cisalpina - High attrition (they have swords but i have Principes and 10000 every turn)
Rome should start with one region/city and in earlier period. BUT changing whole game for one faction?
I need 6 turns to wipe out Epirus + Etruria.
Principes are wonder boys even with spear , Triari will break anything, Hastati are cheap. Can't find any problem with spear Roman units it makes game just little harder and date at the bottom means nothing.
In first turn I just changed whole history of Rome/world - what is the point of history when we have time machine.

[Dresden]

KAM we don't eat them we just feed on their life force, you need to read the new "How to be a DeI dev" manual revised edition.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

You missed the part about eating babies.

KAM we don't eat them we just feed on their life force, you need to read the new "How to be a DeI dev" manual revised edition.

Υou are also watching sex and the city,eating vegan burgers and drinking light beers.

[Augustusng]

Light beers? Do you think we're animals? Even we don't stoop so low!

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Light beers? Do you think we're animals? Even we don't stoop so low!

For you mate...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Sonny WiFiHr]

No they are armed with spear because they lost swords and they can't found them. Poor Hastati.

P.S.
I think they have drinking problem - they use spears to hold themself.

[Augustusng]

If Kam and Dresden sound dismissive to you, it's because they have to deal with worse criticism than this on a daily basis. Give them some slack.

As far as I'm aware, we've got the Camillan units with spears mostly for gameplay. We're all aware they would've been using swords by 280BC. It's also a very old feature in the mod, from back before Kam and I were even working on the mod. It's not about ego; it's just something that was done ages ago and we haven't bothered changing.

[Damocles]

If Kam and Dresden sound dismissive to you, it's because they have to deal with worse criticism than this on a daily basis. Give them some slack.

As far as I'm aware, we've got the Camillan units with spears mostly for gameplay. We're all aware they would've been using swords by 280BC. It's also a very old feature in the mod, from back before Kam and I were even working on the mod. It's not about ego; it's just something that was done ages ago and we haven't bothered changing.

Thank you, August, for taking whatever time it took to write those few sentences, and give me a real response. I appreciate it, and I understand where the team is coming from, now.

[Dresden]

These two responses are a perfect example of the 'ego' in question. I'm not trying to insult you. But to respond to any kind of criticism by taking it up a notch as if I were accusing you of 'eating babies', is just a perfect example of the kind of behavior I was referring to. The sheer dismissiveness of these responses, even when confronted with valid evidence and the opinion of several players, is palpable.

Kam: For a guy that goes into such detail on every other unit he makes, and goes at pains to describe it, it continues to boggle me that you remain so stubborn on hastati.

But just out of curiosity, because I keep hearing different opinions. What is the truth?

Are hastati armed with spears because you really believe they were armed with spears? Or are they armed with spears because you think it makes for better gameplay?

If you want to make my 'ego' comment seem silly, then by all means, actually engage with the question. Otherwise, continue to act dismissive or exaggerate criticism, to make it seem more outlandish than it really is.

No one is trying to be dismissive, we are trying to have fun in an atmosphere that is often combative and overly serious. KAM was referencing an earlier post by someone else that accused us of some insane things. We are often accused of these things and being awful people. As can be seen by your posts about our egos. Its a mod for a game guys and we try to be as responsive as possible.

We don't owe anyone answers at all to be totally honest. The fact that we engage with the community to the extent we do is rather remarkable if you look at the traffic we get here on the forums. I never brag but I am proud of our mod team in that regard. To demand we answer your specific issue just shows how far we have gone to address all the little issues people have. We go out of our way to respond to them, so when we don't do it for someone then its suddenly a reflection of our character?

I didn't respond earlier because I have been busy. My response was meant in jest as a way to keep it light with KAM as we have to constantly field feedback and get accused of being arrogant for no valid reason. I appreciate Augustus coming to our rescue with an actual response because I do understand the need for that. For the specific issue - as he said its a part of the mod that has been that way for a very long time. Something which we have not really thought about for years and its mainly a gameplay reason for progression. There are a lot of parts of the mod that are like that, but we are not against changing things. The main idea behind it is that it provides a look into the early progression and matches some of the tactics used around time period.

[Maroslav]

you guys are one of the most ,,native'' and friendly team i ever met. let's go into Europa barbarorum 2 subforum and try suggest there . Or maybe let's try go suggest something into Vox populi for civ5. Those are best mods of it's vanilla version, mainly becouse they pursue their purposes without let themselve to be harrased by fans. Thats not an arogance, they just realize their plans. DEI is most ,,for fan utilized'' mod i ever seen and someone come here harras them for one unit? lol

[Sonny WiFiHr]

I like spear Hastati it have nice icon/card.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

As someone, who has the german Great Latinum, hasta could also be translated with stabbing and throwing spear of cavalry and infantry. (Langenscheidts Great Latin-German Dictionary). Fact is after struggling in the early phase of the second samnite war against the samnite league the romans won this war clearly. So something must have change in the roman tactics and its very plausible that they adopt the manipularlike, mobile warstyle of the samnites, which was also sucessful in the samnite wars against the greek colonies of Cumae and Posidonia.

[geala]

As someone, who has the german Great Latinum, hasta could also be translated with stabbing and throwing spear of cavalry and infantry. (Langenscheidts Great Latin-German Dictionary)...

It could but does that make great sense in the combination "hastam ... gaesaque"? Which would then translate as "throwing spear ... and throwing spears". Of course you could interprete the hasta as big throwing spear and a gaesum as small throwing spear. That is however not the most elegant solution.

[Maroslav]

oh dear, unit cards. pls where can i get back those 2D from 1.1 version. i rly rly dont like those Attila like.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

But Livius describes the Hastati and Principes as Antepilani, which means soldiers which fought before the soldiers with a pilum (Pilani). But this doesen´t fit to a with pila armed manipular army. I think Livius described the camillan army here. And Livius is a friend of Augustus, he lived much, much later than the manipular army.

[mrhappyx666x]

With the Camillian units only being your starting units for the GC with the idea being to have each Reform as the starting units for each of the four campaigns. It's a great set up as I see it. Besides, who's fighting with spears when you should be diligently building up your economy in those early turns! (Any hope of the Macedonian Campaign getting any attention in 1.2? Greeks just want love too! weird group love but love!)

[Dresden]

We have some plans for Mac Wars but I have been forgetting to do them. We need to add some army spawns for Macedon/Rome and make sure their rosters are up to date with all the changes.

[felipe88]

In Mac Wars, will be possible to make Marian reforms avaliables?

[Dresden]

Its not even remotely close to the right time period if I am remembering correctly