Too much Bronze in the Iron Age?

[Moonflower]

I thought I would just throw this out there to consider for the team... iron age = ~1200BC, Anatolia(?), brings about fairly rapid bronze age collapse.

So with that being said, I've been noticing that there is a lot of bronze armor in heavy use by some variantmeshes. I don't think bronze should go away, but perhaps it ought to be more visible that iron was the predominant warfare metal in use and circulation during this time period, ~900 years later? I do suppose though that iron wasn't as slightly when polished as shining bronze armor, so it wouldn't surprise me that iron cuirasses were still cast in bronze, bronze-plated, etc. by the wealthier classes of soldiers.

Thoughts?

[KAM 2150]

Bronze was often used due to easier maintenance and in other cases as a sign of wealth or bronze was just used as coating. Although for the Hellenic overhaul I've decreased the amount of bronze heavily.

[Moonflower]

Cool, good to know, thanks. But yeah it would seem it proliferated more from the east so it would make sense to see bronze still in somewhat prevalent use out west for sure.

and also, I don't know why that other thread I started was closed... seems some fairly new posters were beginning to hooligan it up in there perhaps? anyways this is what I wanted to say as a last post to that thread.

Please read more about ancient history. Even Caesar was often atonished by "Barbarian" tactics and cohesion and stuff like Testudo were borrowed from Celts. There is a reason why Pike & Shot era leaders went back to ancient tactics and with great success...

How well do you feel you can rely completely on the accuracy of those historical accounts? Every scholar knows that every historical account has to be regarded with a healthy amount of skepticism as ancient history has in various instances, time and time again, proven to be very subjective; 'history is written by the victors' and all that, and then some.

Logical post.... were we talking about the professional armies ...
I understand for gameplay, it's a good idea for units to stand their ground for a time but really it is very non-immersive.

Well, yes and no.

...considering IF ancient armies were indeed as vast as they are recounted, its logical that armies would end up fighting for hours and days, no doubt; each army had its own base camp to retreat to, fortify, and sally from again and again, etc., was usually the case in ancient war. That is not being debated. What is being contested is the current impact or lack of impact that infantry charges seem to have at their time/point of contact, unless its from the rear/flank; charges to the rear and flank are still impactful and rightly and obviously so.

The seeming lack of gravity, the weight and momentum of a frontal charge despite the vast variety of infantry is what I'm talking about. While soldiers did indeed recognize the use of formation for reducing casualty rates, one would also simultaneously see that formations were also the bane to their armies too if they allowed their opponent's formations to remain too tightly uncontested.

You cannot mean to tell me, though, that not at any one time there was not an ancient force whose frontline/vanguard infantrymen were ordered by their general to literally use the weight of their own catapulting wave of bodies to break an opponent's formation, as perhaps they had few other options to win that battle or vital section of battle?

That's my gripe I guess in totality. the weight of frontal charges doesn't feel present enough. But maybe that's more engine mechanics of r2 than anything else.

[KAM 2150]

There are almost no charge kill animations and no pushing (only cav, elephants etc use mass against enemy, infantry mass only reduces the effect of it) outside hoplite and pike formations so that is that. We are working on making them better like I want a lot more shield pushing animations on point of charge but not everything is always working.

Other thread was closed because it would turn into flame war in a post or two.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Oh the "physical pushing match" theory.^^ It is very controversial and i personaly don´t believe in it without some proper explanations how it worked.

This "physical pushing match" theory is the most widely accepted interpretation of the ancient sources. Historians such as Victor Davis Hanson point out that it is difficult to account for exceptionally deep phalanx formations unless they were necessary to facilitate the physical pushing depicted by this theory, as those behind the first two ranks could not take part in the actual spear thrusting.^[7]

Yet, it should be noted that no Greek art ever depicts anything like a phalanx pushing match and this hypothesis is a product of educated speculation rather than explicit testimony from contemporary sources. The Greek term for "push" was used in the same metaphorical manner as the English word is (for example it was also used to describe the process of rhetorical arguments) and so cannot be said to necessarily describe a literal, physical, push of the enemy, although it is possible that it did. In short, the hypothesis is far from being academically resolved.
For instance, if Othismos were to accurately describe a physical pushing match, it would be logical to state that the deeper phalanx would always win an engagement, since the physical strength of individuals would not compensate for even one additional rank on the enemy side. However, there are numerous examples of shallow phalanxes holding off an opponent. For instance, at Delium in 424 the Athenian left flank, a formation eight men deep, held off a formation of Thebans twenty-five deep without immediate collapse.^[8] It is difficult with the physical pushing model to imagine eight men withstanding the pushing force of twenty-five opponents for a matter of seconds, let alone half the battle.
Such arguments have led to a wave of counter-criticism to physical shoving theorists. Adrian Goldsworthy, in his article "The Othismos, Myths and Heresies: The nature of Hoplite Battle" argues that the physical pushing match model does not fit with the average casualty figures of hoplite warfare, nor the practical realities of moving large formations of men in battle.^[9] This debate has yet to be resolved amongst scholars.
Practical difficulties with this theory also include the fact that, in a shoving match, an 8-foot spear is too long to fight effectively or even parry attacks. Spears enable a formation of men to keep their enemies at a distance, parry attacks aimed at them and their comrades, and give the necessary reach to strike multiple men in the opposite formation. A pushing match would put enemies so close together that a quick stabbing with a knife would kill the front row almost instantly. The crush of men would also prevent the formation from withdrawing or retreating, which would result in much higher casualties than is recorded. The speed at which this would occur would also end the battle very quickly, instead of prolonged battles lasting hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx

[Moonflower]

... I want a lot more shield pushing animations on point of charge but not everything is always working...

nice! this would definitely be a major upgrade to current charge visuals. thanks for sharing that. Because that is sort of what I was talking about, or what I had in mind when I was imagining these formation-breaking charge attempts-- men rushing and flinging themselves forward, using their shields to protect themselves while attempting to use their own mass of bodies like wedges to breach into enemy ranks, not necessarily resulting in casualties but in visible engagement across the board, rather than the current collide into one another, take steps back into formation, then watch as a "kill-zone" starts to form between the opposing lines.

The kill zone is one of the most visually pleasing aspects of current dei combat, but yeah if the steps leading up to that kill zone could be more fine tuned with the stuff like you're talking about, that is amazing.

[KAM 2150]

We are talking about a different push, the one where you are pushed back by enemy mass (if he charges you) or when you slowly give ground due to enemy pressing on with the attack (so the inferior side is giving ground to get out of enemy reach) but not actual pushing (as if you just try to push someone with raw force as that is pointless and easy to handle if you ever did martial arts).

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

And even the second meaning is not proven as there are battles like Delium shallow formations hold off deeper formations. Buts its ok as it is your mod.

[KAM 2150]

nice! this would definitely be a major upgrade to current charge visuals. thanks for sharing that. Because that is sort of what I was talking about, or what I had in mind when I was imagining these formation-breaking charge attempts-- men rushing and flinging themselves forward, using their shields to protect themselves while attempting to use their own mass of bodies like wedges to breach into enemy ranks, not necessarily resulting in casualties but in visible engagement across the board, rather than the current collide into one another, take steps back into formation, then watch as a "kill-zone" starts to form between the opposing lines.

The kill zone is one of the most visually pleasing aspects of current dei combat, but yeah if the steps leading up to that kill zone could be more fine tuned with the stuff like you're talking about, that is amazing.

Yep, we are on the same page here, just voiced our opinions in a different manner All in all, it depends on the game engine and its willingness to work with our ideas. It would be also cool if we coukd have people still crawling on the ground ablnd slowly dying like it is the case with some ranged casualties instead of instantly falling dead.

[KAM 2150]

And even the second meaning is not proven as there are battles like Delium shallow formations hold off deeper formations. Buts its ok as it is your mod.

That is not the same thing, what you described is written in my last sentence of that post.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

But thats more a organized retreat than a consequence of the "pressing" of the winning phalanx. At least in my eyes.

[Moonflower]

It would be also cool if we coukd have people still crawling on the ground ablnd slowly dying like it is the case with some ranged casualties instead of instantly falling dead.

omg yes plz... that would be so brutal

Oh the "physical pushing match" theory.^^

Well that isn't necessarily what I was talking about, but its humorous if not unsurprising that that debate exists!
the physical pushing match theory, with shield against shield, only makes sense to use or happen in combat of close quarters/indoor, or with the development of the tower shield, which is basically a very large rectangular scutum shield. With tower shields it would've been easier to completely be safe behind while other soldiers from behind/over the top attempt the majority if not all of the killing, while the frontline men shove against each other to maintain the battle lines. But that isn't what we have is it? Hoplite warfare where the shield was just a large, shallow bowl-like circle, shield coordination had to be much more precise and overlapping to create a defensive line since the shields did not cover a person head to toe, like tower shields could.

So I sincerely doubt hoplite warfare, between just hoplites, was ever much like a physical pushing match. more likely they would engage each other similar to how two opposing lines of pikemen would engage each other; rows of spears and shields presented while their is a push-thrust sort of action across the board in order to stab the other side and continue to do so. Now, if a mass of say, barbarian swordsman with oval shields rushed en masse enough to breach the outer row of stabbing spears I foresee a sort of shoving match unfolding until one side or the other gives ground, as the frontlines of hoplites would've been forced to abandon their long range and arguably defensive weapon, their spear, in exchange for their sword in order to repel the enemy front lines enough to create enough space for the back rows of spears to remain efficient defensive, killing apparatuses.

[KAM 2150]

But thats more a organized retreat than a consequence of the "pressing" of the winning phalanx. At least in my eyes.

No, that is not organized retreat (but it can be that too if commander of the unit orders it), just people dying or getting out of the harms way and enemy pressing on with the attack, otherwise battlelines would remain static forever and winning side would not move forward (because what would happen if entire enemy front rank or two is dead, you just stay in place and not take the advantage?).

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

But this would be only the case, if the battling phalanxes had great differences in quality. Then the better phalanx would press SLOWLY forward, not like the phalanx tanks in Rome I.

[KAM 2150]

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am talking about from the beggining And it would been not the case exclusive to the phalanx, that happens in all types of melee combat, preceding the rout, even in cavalry combat (Battle of Klushino).

[Icarus Smicarus]

Other thread was closed because it would turn into flame war in a post or two.

Flame war you say? Good one mate, all I saw were tantrums thrown over being confronted with different ideas. How can we expect the conversation to improve if we're just going to shut down free speech. Telling someone who is studying history as his passion in life to "educate" himself is incredibly insulting and I expect an apology. I love many of the core aspects of this mod and it's head and tails above most out there, but I can't let the word "realism" get thrown around when it's not deserved. I will fine tune the mechanics for my own enjoyment but as long as you're all selling the core mod's current combat system as historically authentic then I'll be there to shout it down.

[KAM 2150]

Then you are free to be ingored by false data like 40k dead at Khadesh. You also do not know game engine and limitations as I do, which gets tiresome because people think that a lot of stuff are made on purpose while there is no way of doing it otherwise due to horrible game engine implementation.

[Icarus Smicarus]

I never claimed it to be a hard figure, as we both know there are only varying degrees of guesswork when it comes to ancient casualties. That estimate is from Richard B. Parkinson in ISBN 978-0-7141-5100-7, P.65. It is an estimate and I may have jumped the gun when referencing it but I can name a hundred other battles from a more relevant era with similar losses. Just try me

I am an amateur modder too and have tinkered on Rome 2 since the beginning, albeit mostly slight adjustments to stats and colour schemes. Though I wouldn't dare question the towering skill you've demonstrated in creating what is arguably vanilla + . I'm always willing to help you along your journey if you want to have a look at my experiments.

[Dresden]

This has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread. Proving your knowledge and bragging about your skills are not relevant to this discussion. And sarcastically addressing the modding team here and our mod as vanilla+ will not get you your desired result. Neither will "shouting down" our combat system when you have no idea the issues involved in creating and balancing a mod like this within the game's limitations. Unless that desired result is to be viewed as a troll which is quickly becoming apparent that may be your original intent.

[Icarus Smicarus]

I respect the modding team here on the whole and I have enjoyed countless hours of DEI over the last year or so, but I will NOT be accused of making unsourced claims. Nor will my knowledge of the game engine be questioned needlessly. My intent is only to prevent the misleading assertion of "realism" get out of hand, as I believe there are better ways of simulating the realities of battle in this era while appreciating the limitations of the engine. If I'm going to be abused and insulted then what can you expect mate I don't believe any of my posts have warranted the response of "educate yourself". Now I see that this team has a narrow-minded and authoritarian position in regards to criticism I think I'll keep my ideas to myself. No more thoughtcrimes out of me, don't worry, I'll just ferry myself to the gulag. Adios lads!