The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

[Prodromos]

The globalist elite isn't really leftist. By economic standards, it isn't. It's not even classical free market anymore, it resembles more a feudal landed aristocracy, except that the land has been replaced by stocks.
Also Ron Paul simply believes in minding your own business, which puts him at odds with Neocons and Liberal interventionists.

I suppose. But whether the elite are left-wing or right-wing, we can still oppose them and Putin at the same time. It is not an either/or situation.

It's not a dictatorship, nor tyrannical by any standard. That's an extremely biased view if not just sheer propaganda spouted by the globalist elite who wants to get its hands on Russian natural resources again.

It's an elected dictatorship, but a dictatorship nonetheless, with wideranging violations of political freedom. This is not CIA propaganda, but straight from Russia's government, as well as Russian political activists and reformers, dozens of whom have either disappeared or been outright killed.

As for Russian resources, I'll need proof of this globalist conspiracy to steal them. As things stand now, those resources don't even belong to the Russian people, but to Putin and the rich people who control quasi-state-run companies with Putin's blessing.

It also blows my mind how Russia went from an absolute monarchy until WW1, to a totalitarian regime until 1990, and then somehow it must absolutey become a beacon of perfectly functioning democracy immediately, otherwise you accuse them of being a tyrannical dictatorship.

And again, yes Russians prefer Russia under Putin with all its defects, than the nightmare they went through the 90s.

This is another false choice. It is another fear tactic used by Putin to maintain control and crush dissent. The choice isn't between 90s Russia and Russia today. The choice is between the West or Eastern Europe today and Russia today.

Most of the USSR had it bad after the breakup of the union. But when you compare Russia to, as an example, Czechia, it becomes clear that you can develop and grow wealthy without a repressive dictatorship.

What Russians went through the 90s is what is happening to the Western middle class now. The wealth of the nation being ripped off and hidden in tax havens by a very restricted circle of individuals.

This is simply baseless. The West blows Russia out of the water on every metric, including wealth equality. Russia is one of the poorest, most unequal, and most corrupt countries in Europe. This is not during the 90s. It is today.

FRONTLINE | PBS

If there is one statistic that underscores the depth of wealth inequality in Russia, it may be that an estimated 111 billionaires control nearly a fifth of all household wealth in the country. That’s according to the 2014 Credit Suisse analysis, which found that those in the top 10 percent of the population control a staggering 85 percent of wealth in Russia.

One factor widely seen as contributing to the rise of the uber-rich is the role of corruption inside Russia. Despite pledges by Vladimir Putin to crack down on corruption, to most Russians, the problem remains widespread. Surveys by OPORA, a Russian business association, have found that 90 percent of entrepreneurs have encountered corruption at least once. Among households, corruption ranked as the second biggest problem in the country — behind housing — in a survey by the Institute of Contemporary Development in Moscow...

It’s difficult to put a price tag on the economic costs of corruption, but according to one analysis by the INDEM Foundation, a Moscow-based think tank focused on anti-corruption, the practice costs the nation’s economy between $300 billion and $500 billion each year. With a GDP of about $1.5 trillion, that represents roughly a third of Russia’s economy.

In addition to Russia’s 111 billionaires, it is home to 158,000 millionaires. But for the rest of the nation of 139 million, the Credit Suisse analysis put median wealth at $2,360 in 2014, up from $871 the year before. To be sure, missing data meant that the report’s authors could not factor for real assets — such as how much a person may own in property. But after estimating what those costs may be, the analysis suggests that 83 percent of the population has less than $10,000 in personal wealth.

But research by the International Policy Centre for Inclusive Growth has found that income gains in recent years have primarily benefited Russia’s wealthy energy hubs, while bypassing the nation’s poorest areas. The research showed that in regions where at least half of economic output comes from the oil, gas and minerals industries, incomes are one-third higher, on average, than in the rest of Russia. Four of the five highest-income regions in the analysis were centers of oil and gas production, and all were home to the greatest income inequality. As the study noted:

The growth in … incomes does not reflect growth in entrepreneurship or innovation though. The inequality in the distribution of incomes reflects the economy’s dependence on rents from resource extraction, which has increased incomes in the highest income brackets and hindered the expansion of the middle class.

It's a third-world country, essentially, due to the Putin government. Russians need regime change at home, not in the Crimea.

The Western political freedoms are in free fall, to the point we are not in the position to criticize anyone anymore. The CIA/NSA control over private lives is something you'd expect from China, not a ''free country''. The censorship of the press on topics like immigration is 1984 level; the Western imperialist wars to ''spread democracy'' are actually something that's present in that very same book.

This is another talking point spread by Putin; that Westerners aren't even really free. The West is a beacon for freedom fighters around the world. When people compare what the West has to what they have at home, they become restive and begin demanding reform. So what dictators do is they point out or make up faults in the Western world, and try to create a moral or other equivalence between our countries and theirs. "You want democracy like the West? Look! Their political candidates are chosen in secret, just like in our country! Thanks, Wikileaks." "You want privacy rights like in the West? Look! The CIA/NSA monitor everything their citizens do, just like us! Thanks, Wikileaks." etc. The gist of it is, people in unfree countries should shut up and sit down and stop demanding Western freedoms. (That's why political reformers in Russia despise Wikileaks by the way.)

In reality, of course, for all the West's failings, it is still undoubtedly the freest place on Earth. There is no equivalence to Russia or any other tyrannical country. There's an undeniable moral superiority to Putin.

As for the examples you mentioned. The NSA/CIA largely have no interest in spying on people for political reasons. It is entirely for national security reasons. Unlike in Russia and other countries, where intelligence agencies aim their sights on the people themselves, rather than on criminals or terrorists.

The mainstream media is an arm of the Democratic party, but independent journalists and alternative media are free to practice journalism to their heart's content. Again, this is unlike Russia, where journalists are discredited with false allegations by the government, or are disappeared or simply killed.

Let's be clear on one point, which is what most people miss out: I don't care about what Putin does in its own country, that is on Russian people and what they intend to do; I just want peaceful and cooperative relations and that's apparently not good for our warmongering, greedy elite. I care about our own bloc and it's a ing dystopia. We had politicians whining about low voter turnout for decades, now that turnout is going up in Europe but people don't vote for the mainstream parties, they whine about ''populism''. They can off.

What about Russian warmongering? If America and the West adopted an isolationist stance, who would fill the resulting power vacuum? Who would benefit?

Why is it that these proposals - isolationism, "America First", etc., always seem to benefit Putin on the world stage? This is Russian propaganda, Basil. Western supporters of Russia should snap out of it and stop letting slimy, Russian government agents control their thoughts.

Do a little research on the history of isolationist movements, especially in America during the second world war. They are not patriots who want to withdraw from the world solely to help their country. They are foreign agents trying to divide us and our allies! The Russians have 100% Spy Network in the West right now.

[Elfdude]

It's so interesting to watch one conservative explain to another conservative that their perceptions and confirmation bias is showing with regards to Russia being terrible while said conservative doesn't see the issues with an American president having huge conflicts of interest with the Russian Government, seems to have been the preferred candidate of Russia (for what seems considering his argument, obvious reasons). I can't understand how your perspective can be so coherent within one aspect and then in another area directly related be so utterly perpendicular.

Then we consider the idea that the person who thinks Russia is a glorious country which the US should love and try to resemble thinks the globalist elite are the bad guys while electing a globalist elite to the highest office. This whole system is utterly astonishing in the incomprehensibility of the positions held by these individuals.

Dr. Legend, how can you have such an accurate perspective on Russia while poo-pooing the connection and obvious corruption between them and the current administration?

Basil, how do you rectify your hatred of the globalist elite with Trump who is literally a globalist elite billionaire?

[Nikitn]

I suppose. But whether the elite are left-wing or right-wing, we can still oppose them and Putin at the same time. It is not an either/or situation.



It's an elected dictatorship, but a dictatorship nonetheless, with wideranging violations of political freedom. This is not CIA propaganda, but straight from Russia's government, as well as Russian political activists and reformers, dozens of whom have either disappeared or been outright killed.

As for Russian resources, I'll need proof of this globalist conspiracy to steal them. As things stand now, those resources don't even belong to the Russian people, but to Putin and the rich people who control quasi-state-run companies with Putin's blessing.



This is another false choice. It is another fear tactic used by Putin to maintain control and crush dissent. The choice isn't between 90s Russia and Russia today. The choice is between the West or Eastern Europe today and Russia today.

Most of the USSR had it bad after the breakup of the union. But when you compare Russia to, as an example, Czechia, it becomes clear that you can develop and grow wealthy without a repressive dictatorship.



This is simply baseless. The West blows Russia out of the water on every metric, including wealth equality. Russia is one of the poorest, most unequal, and most corrupt countries in Europe. This is not during the 90s. It is today.

FRONTLINE | PBS









It's a third-world country, essentially, due to the Putin government. Russians need regime change at home, not in the Crimea.



This is another talking point spread by Putin; that Westerners aren't even really free. The West is a beacon for freedom fighters around the world. When people compare what the West has to what they have at home, they become restive and begin demanding reform. So what dictators do is they point out or make up faults in the Western world, and try to create a moral or other equivalence between our countries and theirs. "You want democracy like the West? Look! Their political candidates are chosen in secret, just like in our country! Thanks, Wikileaks." "You want privacy rights like in the West? Look! The CIA/NSA monitor everything their citizens do, just like us! Thanks, Wikileaks." etc. The gist of it is, people in unfree countries should shut up and sit down and stop demanding Western freedoms. (That's why political reformers in Russia despise Wikileaks by the way.)

In reality, of course, for all the West's failings, it is still undoubtedly the freest place on Earth. There is no equivalence to Russia or any other tyrannical country. There's an undeniable moral superiority to Putin.

As for the examples you mentioned. The NSA/CIA largely have no interest in spying on people for political reasons. It is entirely for national security reasons. Unlike in Russia and other countries, where intelligence agencies aim their sights on the people themselves, rather than on criminals or terrorists.

The mainstream media is an arm of the Democratic party, but independent journalists and alternative media are free to practice journalism to their heart's content. Again, this is unlike Russia, where journalists are discredited with false allegations by the government, or are disappeared or simply killed.



What about Russian warmongering? If America and the West adopted an isolationist stance, who would fill the resulting power vacuum? Who would benefit?

Why is it that these proposals - isolationism, "America First", etc., always seem to benefit Putin on the world stage? This is Russian propaganda, Basil. Western supporters of Russia should snap out of it and stop letting slimy, Russian government agents control their thoughts.

Do a little research on the history of isolationist movements, especially in America during the second world war. They are not patriots who want to withdraw from the world solely to help their country. They are foreign agents trying to divide us and our allies! The Russians have 100% Spy Network in the West right now.

So essentially you cherry-pick statistics, of which some are useless like the corruption perception index, and try to fit that in your deranged perspectives on Russia? yawn

Here is the reality: Russia is on the same level as rest of eastern Europe when it comes to both HDI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...elopment_Index and to spending power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...PP)_per_capita , and there has been a strong positive trend in both of these, as well as everything from murder rate to child mortality, ever since Putin came to power. Obviously there are major problems with things like income inequality, economical crimes and corruption within state, judiciary system etc, but trust me it's nothing compared to the situation during the 90s. It was only around 2005 that Russia started becoming a normal country.

All in all, the image that's painted to you by your media, and which you in turn spread here, is simply propaganda that you're swallowing cold. Fact of the matter is, if it hadn't been for this "totalitarianism", Russia would end up the same as the liberal, democratic beauty that is the Ukraine.

PS: The whole "Trump's Russia connections" hysteria is fake news used to manipulate stupid voters anyway, so comparing the US with Russia is a waste of time really.

[Basil II the B.S]

It's an elected dictatorship, but a dictatorship nonetheless, with wideranging violations of political freedom. This is not CIA propaganda, but straight from Russia's government, as well as Russian political activists and reformers, dozens of whom have either disappeared or been outright killed.

The only ones who disappeared were US agents. Two sides of the same coin really.

As for Russian resources, I'll need proof of this globalist conspiracy to steal them. As things stand now, those resources don't even belong to the Russian people, but to Putin and the rich people who control quasi-state-run companies with Putin's blessing.

You need to look up at the history of privatizations of the old Soviet state-run companies in the 90s; the ''Russian oligarchs'' are actually a US creation, as they received loans from US banks like JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Rothschilds to buy those companies in a moment when they were worth millions, but as soon as the Russian economy recovered, they became worthy billions. Further evidence, where do the Russian oligarchs reside today? Moscow? Nope. London and New York.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cohen-crusade.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/3...VE.html?pg=all
http://www.academia.edu/7458660/A_RE...RAPY_IN_RUSSIA
https://www.thenation.com/article/ha...oys-do-russia/
http://www.alternet.org/story/155588...t-day_oklahoma
http://www.softpanorama.org/Skeptics...rd_mafia.shtml

Why do you think George Soros is banned from Russia and tries every day of his life to start a war against it? Because he was one of those who backed the oligarchs, but was thrown out of Russia as well.

The only thing Putin did was tell them ''you'll get what you ripped off, but don't show your face in Russia ever again'' to run the political show (unlike most of the West where Western oligarchs not only own the wealth, but also run the show. Which is one of the reasons Putin is so popular among Russians and nothing short of national hero.

No matter how you try to spin oligarchs and inequality in Russia, this was the US doing. The US provided the loans and the ideological background (from Harvard) for the whole things. The Russian oligarchs are a US pet project.

This is another false choice. It is another fear tactic used by Putin to maintain control and crush dissent. The choice isn't between 90s Russia and Russia today. The choice is between the West or Eastern Europe today and Russia today.

Putin protects the Russian national interest, Western politicians export jobs, import people to replace natives, start worthless wars. There's a reason if Putin is also growing in popularity in the West.

Most of the USSR had it bad after the breakup of the union. But when you compare Russia to, as an example, Czechia, it becomes clear that you can develop and grow wealthy without a repressive dictatorship.

The same Czech, Poles and Hungarians who now oppose pretty much every single ideas their Western buddies propose on wars, trade, immigration, because they are insane and do not benefit their citizens in any way. Stop pretending Cecilia Malmstrom, Juncker, Nuland or Hillary Clinton are somehow better than Putin in any way.

This is simply baseless. The West blows Russia out of the water on every metric, including wealth equality. Russia is one of the poorest, most unequal, and most corrupt countries in Europe. This is not during the 90s. It is today.

The majority of those people who somehow received loans from Western banks and reside in the West.

It's a third-world country, essentially, due to the Putin government. Russians need regime change at home, not in the Crimea.

Failed ideology with a 0% success rate, good luck with it.

The overwhelming majority of Russians prefer Putin to any of the Western picked stooges. Westerners themselves are fighting hard to get rid of our corrupt elite.

This is another talking point spread by Putin; that Westerners aren't even really free. The West is a beacon for freedom fighters around the world.

NSA and CIA controlling everything we say: not free.
Media censorship on immigration: not free.
Demonization of democratic participation: not free.
''Fake news'' crusade against alternative media: not free.

The next thing you are going to bring me is the ''freedemz index'' by Freedom House aka George Soros to tell me who's free and who's not. Western freedoms are in free fall and the West is in a full on class war between the globalist elite and the Western people.

When people compare what the West has to what they have at home, they become restive and begin demanding reform. So what dictators do is they point out or make up faults in the Western world, and try to create a moral or other equivalence between our countries and theirs. "You want democracy like the West? Look! Their political candidates are chosen in secret, just like in our country! Thanks, Wikileaks." "You want privacy rights like in the West? Look! The CIA/NSA monitor everything their citizens do, just like us! Thanks, Wikileaks." etc. The gist of it is, people in unfree countries should shut up and sit down and stop demanding Western freedoms. (That's why political reformers in Russia despise Wikileaks by the way.)

In reality, of course, for all the West's failings, it is still undoubtedly the freest place on Earth. There is no equivalence to Russia or any other tyrannical country. There's an undeniable moral superiority to Putin.

1) As long as you keep describing Russia as a dictatorship, you aren't making any objective analysis, nor fact based. You are repeating Soros propaganda.
2) Russia has a ton of problems deriving from having switched from 2 consecutive totalitarian regimes, to a representative one, but they are improving. The West instead, which boasts freedom and democracy is effectively undermining them both. The beacon of freedom, the US, right now has an ongoing war between a democratically elected president against the Neocon base both in the Republican party (McCain), the CIA (McMullin) and the Democratic party. Every single mainstream media is siding with the latter, which makes the US a semi-free country at best.

As for the examples you mentioned. The NSA/CIA largely have no interest in spying on people for political reasons. It is entirely for national security reasons.

Lol, so when Russia does it, it's because they are a tyranny, but when the NSA/CIA do it, it's because of national security. Nope.

Unlike in Russia and other countries, where intelligence agencies aim their sights on the people themselves, rather than on criminals or terrorists.

Ahahahah. You can't be serious on this one. The whole Snowden scandal was because the NSA spies citizens, not criminals. You are just spouting falsehood.

The mainstream media is an arm of the Democratic party, but independent journalists and alternative media are free to practice journalism to their heart's content. Again, this is unlike Russia, where journalists are discredited with false allegations by the government, or are disappeared or simply killed.

And the whole ''fake news'' crusade is aiming at shutting down independent journalism, which is what a totalitarian regime would do. So, the West is moving toward totalitarianism.

What about Russian warmongering? If America and the West adopted an isolationist stance, who would fill the resulting power vacuum? Who would benefit?

Neocons did a regime change in Ukraine, overthrowing an elected government and replacing it with one of their cronies. That's an aggression. What should Russia do in front of Neocons aggression? Sit down and stand by? Because the Neocon declared goal is to either control Moscow or isolate it. Russians know this and once again that's why Putin's popularity when through the roof with the Crimea affair. He stood up to a Neocon aggression, he protected the Russian national interest against American imperialism.

You can't tell me that American imperialism is the US national interest and Russia shouldn't defend its own. It's illogical.

Why is it that these proposals - isolationism, "America First", etc., always seem to benefit Putin on the world stage? This is Russian propaganda, Basil. Western supporters of Russia should snap out of it and stop letting slimy, Russian government agents control their thoughts.

The Russian government has no magical powers. Western citizens are revolting against the Western elite because the latter does not protect their interests. Russia at best is merely gloating on the sidelines.

Do a little research on the history of isolationist movements, especially in America during the second world war. They are not patriots who want to withdraw from the world solely to help their country. They are foreign agents trying to divide us and our allies! The Russians have 100% Spy Network in the West right now.

There's a fair difference between ''isolationist'' and ''not wanting to start pointless wars''. Isis needs to be eradicated from earth, Russia, or Iran or any of the ''enemies of the West'' presented by Neocons are not an actual threat to the West.

[Telamon]

The only ones who disappeared were US agents. Two sides of the same coin really.

I managed to get through the rest of your diatribe but I really should have stopped here. The idea that every dissenting Russian journalist or activist who disappeared or was killed is a US agent is beyond conspiracy.

[Nikitn]

I managed to get through the rest of your diatribe but I really should have stopped here. The idea that every dissenting Russian journalist or activist who disappeared or was killed is a US agent is beyond conspiracy.

And so is the idea that they were all killed by the Kremlin. All of them, without exception, were involved in investigations of local mobsters/corrupt officials/Chechens/corrupt businessmen etc. The "dissenting" part is not what got them killed.

[Basil II the B.S]

I managed to get through the rest of your diatribe but I really should have stopped here. The idea that every dissenting Russian journalist or activist who disappeared or was killed is a US agent is beyond conspiracy.

An overstatment but you are free to believe whatever you want.

However, ''guilty because I do not like them'' is not an argument. And that's 95% of the arguments on that topic.

[Adar]

Putin protects the Russian national interest, Western politicians export jobs, import people to replace natives, start worthless wars. There's a reason if Putin is also growing in popularity in the West.

You overestimate the popularity of Putin, his key demographics seem to be edgy loners on the internet and populations in regions suffering from severe economic difficulties. Basically out of democratic countries you have to reach Greece-levels of economic failure to find more support for Putin than for Hillary Clinton.


Source

In general people seem to be quite happy with America as the leading nation in the world even as an increasingly large part of the population is turning against the European Union.

So essentially you cherry-pick statistics, of which some are useless like the corruption perception index, and try to fit that in your deranged perspectives on Russia? yawn

Here is the reality: Russia is on the same level as rest of eastern Europe when it comes to both HDI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...elopment_Index and to spending power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...PP)_per_capita , and there has been a strong positive trend in both of these, as well as everything from murder rate to child mortality, ever since Putin came to power. Obviously there are major problems with things like income inequality, economical crimes and corruption within state, judiciary system etc, but trust me it's nothing compared to the situation during the 90s. It was only around 2005 that Russia started becoming a normal country.

All in all, the image that's painted to you by your media, and which you in turn spread here, is simply propaganda that you're swallowing cold. Fact of the matter is, if it hadn't been for this "totalitarianism", Russia would end up the same as the liberal, democratic beauty that is the Ukraine.

PS: The whole "Trump's Russia connections" hysteria is fake news used to manipulate stupid voters anyway, so comparing the US with Russia is a waste of time really.

Not really, if you look at HDI indicators in your own link. Russia is in the same bracket as the Balkans rather than Eastern Europe (countries with the same colours belong to the same level and dark green is better).





Ukraines major problem is that it for most of the last 25 years it has been closer to Russia than to the rest of Europe and turned into what is essentially Russia without the immense natural resources.

And so is the idea that they were all killed by the Kremlin. All of them, without exception, were involved in investigations of local mobsters/corrupt officials/Chechens/corrupt businessmen etc. The "dissenting" part is not what got them killed.

Dissenter investigating local mobsters
Dissenter investigating corrupt officials
Dissenter investigating Chechens
Dissenter investigating corrupt businessmen
Dissenter investigating etc.

Obviously there cannot be any pattern related to the fact that these people died investigating the cronies in a crony-capitalist society.

[Basil II the B.S]

Yeah the same polls that said Hillary would win in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania (by large margins), Michigan, Brexit wouldn't pass, the Italian referendum would be close (20 percentage points difference in the end), etc.

The most disqualified profession out there.

[Nikitn]

Not really, if you look at HDI indicators in your own link. Russia is in the same bracket as the Balkans rather than Eastern Europe (countries with the same colours belong to the same level and dark green is better).

Yes really, because Russia, like Belarus, is borderline between darker-green and light green (ie between very high and high). Are you not able to read and understand numbers, and figure out what happens when you split up a continiuum of 500 points into 8 discrete regions? Russia is on the same level as Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Lithuania etc.

Ukraines major problem is that it for most of the last 25 years it has been closer to Russia than to the rest of Europe and turned into what is essentially Russia without the immense natural resources.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Dissenter investigating local mobsters
Dissenter investigating corrupt officials
Dissenter investigating Chechens
Dissenter investigating corrupt businessmen
Dissenter investigating etc.

Obviously there cannot be any pattern related to the fact that these people died investigating the cronies in a crony-capitalist society.

First of all, economist.com is not a credible source ("fake news"), so I won't waste my time reading it. Now, yes, Russia has problems with corruption&criminals, but guess what, the trend is positive. Do you know what the death-rate of journalists were during the 90's compared to what it is today?

[Heathen Hammer]

The issues is not Russia or quality of life in Russia.
While CIA and other "intelligence" agencies made vague claims about Trump's ties to Russia they haven't posted a single shred of evidence, aside form appeal to their own authorities. Yes, same "intelligence" groups that have ties to corporate globalist elite that would benefit from undermining Trump. And yes, same "intelligence" agencies that consistently lied to US public, dragged US into lengthy military conflicts and have a history of supporting organized crime and international terrorism.
And now we have proof from Wikileaks that CIA not only had the means to orchestrate a false flag "hacking" and frame it on Russia, they literally handed over such technology to other powers.
So yeah, the main issue is with semi-terrorist groups like CIA being a danger to US and its population, while using Russia as a scapegoat. Perhaps, this is the right time to defund CIA and open some serious inquiry into their activities?

[Elfdude]

Yeah the same polls that said Hillary would win in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania (by large margins), Michigan, Brexit wouldn't pass, the Italian referendum would be close (20 percentage points difference in the end), etc.

The most disqualified profession out there.

*sigh*

Polls predict probabilities, not outcomes.

That's basic statistics 101. Each of the polls you mentioned the outcome fell within the mathematically predicted value range.

If I say I'm 95% certain that the election will be 55% A and 45% B with a standard deviation of 8% that means that the actual outcome were it repeated 100 times would fall within that standard deviation. Very few polls were this certain near the actual outcomes. On the other hand, a poll assessing general satisfaction or dissatisfaction/opinion DOES predict that if you choose 10 people at random that X amount of them will possess Y opinion.

If you were to try and use quantum theory to predict the position of an electron in a given moment in time you'd have the same problem. We can predict the probability of where the electron will be, we can't predict the outcome of where it actually is.

[ByzantinePowerGame]

Yeah the same polls that said Hillary would win in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania (by large margins), Michigan, Brexit wouldn't pass, the Italian referendum would be close (20 percentage points difference in the end), etc.

The most disqualified profession out there.

I won a substantial bet because I correctly predicted [and wagered along those lines] that Trump would win at least 300 electoral votes. I specifically stated he would win Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Michigan, and Wisconsin.

[fkizz]

Basil, how do you rectify your hatred of the globalist elite with Trump who is literally a globalist elite billionaire?

Not Basil but I've heard this question many times so I'll just leave this here;

He comes off as a nationalist that wants proteccionism on a macro level, meaning for example less factories overseas and more back at home. By definition for many billionaire globalists this is a true scare for them, since they are used for comfortable profits in a less proteccionist environment, they lack the confidence they can retain their status in such an environment change.

Which is why I wouldn't be minimally surprised if PRC elite thinks many of our deal makers in the past years were easy game, China uses proteccionism in response to West offering more Free Trade deals. It's an unrequited love that is painted as a two sided free globalist trade.

[Basil II the B.S]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/...source=copyurl

Let's get back on topic with the absurdities of Neocons;

McCain's speech on tape in the link:

If they object, they are now carrying out the desires and ambitions of Vladimir Putin and I do not say that lightly.” Several moments later, after McCain asked for unanimous consent to move the bill forward, Sen. Paul raised his objection and then exited the room. This set off McCain, who railed against Paul: “I note the senator from Kentucky leaving the floor without justification or any rationale for the action he has just taken. That is really remarkable, that a senator blocking a treaty that is supported by the overwhelming number, perhaps 98—at least—of his colleagues would come to the floor and object and walk away.” He then directly connected Paul to the Russians: “The only conclusion you can draw when he walks away is he has no justification for his objection to having a small nation be part of NATO that is under assault from the Russians. So I repeat again, the senator from Kentucky is now working for Vladimir Putin.”

Anyone that doesn't agree with ever expanding NATO and hating Russia is a Putin stooge.

[fkizz]

Anyone that doesn't agree with ever expanding NATO and hating Russia is a Putin stooge.

I'm ok with a power balance that doesn't end in thermonuclear war.
Some people would suspect I'm a russian hacker for this

[Diocle]

Did anyone really think the issues between the US and Russia like Ukraine, Syria, nuclear rearmament, violation of middle treaties, and the hacking scandals were just going to go away and America and Russia be best friends?

Yes I did and .. yes I do! .. wait and see ..

[Prodromos]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/...source=copyurl

Let's get back on topic with the absurdities of Neocons;

McCain's speech on tape in the link:



Anyone that doesn't agree with ever expanding NATO and hating Russia is a Putin stooge.

It is undeniable that this benefits Russia, which is what McCain meant. Paul is not innocent, he has a history of making similarly stupid/blunt statements, such as the claim that Republicans are the creators of ISIL. I'm pretty sure Trump also said that it was Hillary who created them. It's just drivel aimed at low-info voters. A smart statement doesn't make the news; only a stupid outrageous statement does.

[Basil II the B.S]

I'm ok with a power balance that doesn't end in thermonuclear war.
Some people would suspect I'm a russian hacker for this

Exactly my position. Now where are our checks from Putin?

[Prodromos]

It's so interesting to watch one conservative explain to another conservative that their perceptions and confirmation bias is showing with regards to Russia being terrible while said conservative doesn't see the issues with an American president having huge conflicts of interest with the Russian Government, seems to have been the preferred candidate of Russia (for what seems considering his argument, obvious reasons). I can't understand how your perspective can be so coherent within one aspect and then in another area directly related be so utterly perpendicular...

Dr. Legend, how can you have such an accurate perspective on Russia while poo-pooing the connection and obvious corruption between them and the current administration?

I'm pretty sure Trump's too uninterested to have any policies on Russia. Much of the policymaking will be done by people like Mattis. Trump just wants fame and prestige for himself.

there has been a strong positive trend in both of these, as well as everything from murder rate to child mortality, ever since Putin came to power.

All in all, the image that's painted to you by your media, and which you in turn spread here, is simply propaganda that you're swallowing cold. Fact of the matter is, if it hadn't been for this "totalitarianism", Russia would end up the same as the liberal, democratic beauty that is the Ukraine.

There's been a positive trend in Poland and Czechia and other countries as well, and, strangely enough, these countries didn't need an oppressive dictatorship to improve their economy. And while Russia has improved since the 90s, things have actually been getting worse these past few years; much much worse. The Putin system is unsustainable. It's a system based on natural resources and semi-state-run companies controlled by Putin's cronies. Pretty nice if you're Putin or one of his cronies, but if you're like most Russians, "emigrate or die."

The only ones who disappeared were US agents. Two sides of the same coin really.

You need to look up at the history of privatizations of the old Soviet state-run companies in the 90s; the ''Russian oligarchs'' are actually a US creation, as they received loans from US banks like JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Rothschilds to buy those companies in a moment when they were worth millions, but as soon as the Russian economy recovered, they became worthy billions. Further evidence, where do the Russian oligarchs reside today? Moscow? Nope. London and New York.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/cohen-crusade.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/3...VE.html?pg=all
http://www.academia.edu/7458660/A_RE...RAPY_IN_RUSSIA
https://www.thenation.com/article/ha...oys-do-russia/
http://www.alternet.org/story/155588...t-day_oklahoma
http://www.softpanorama.org/Skeptics...rd_mafia.shtml

Why do you think George Soros is banned from Russia and tries every day of his life to start a war against it? Because he was one of those who backed the oligarchs, but was thrown out of Russia as well.

The only thing Putin did was tell them ''you'll get what you ripped off, but don't show your face in Russia ever again'' to run the political show (unlike most of the West where Western oligarchs not only own the wealth, but also run the show. Which is one of the reasons Putin is so popular among Russians and nothing short of national hero.

No matter how you try to spin oligarchs and inequality in Russia, this was the US doing. The US provided the loans and the ideological background (from Harvard) for the whole things. The Russian oligarchs are a US pet project.

Putin protects the Russian national interest, Western politicians export jobs, import people to replace natives, start worthless wars. There's a reason if Putin is also growing in popularity in the West.

The same Czech, Poles and Hungarians who now oppose pretty much every single ideas their Western buddies propose on wars, trade, immigration, because they are insane and do not benefit their citizens in any way. Stop pretending Cecilia Malmstrom, Juncker, Nuland or Hillary Clinton are somehow better than Putin in any way.

The majority of those people who somehow received loans from Western banks and reside in the West.

Failed ideology with a 0% success rate, good luck with it.

The overwhelming majority of Russians prefer Putin to any of the Western picked stooges. Westerners themselves are fighting hard to get rid of our corrupt elite.

NSA and CIA controlling everything we say: not free.
Media censorship on immigration: not free.
Demonization of democratic participation: not free.
''Fake news'' crusade against alternative media: not free.

The next thing you are going to bring me is the ''freedemz index'' by Freedom House aka George Soros to tell me who's free and who's not. Western freedoms are in free fall and the West is in a full on class war between the globalist elite and the Western people.

1) As long as you keep describing Russia as a dictatorship, you aren't making any objective analysis, nor fact based. You are repeating Soros propaganda.
2) Russia has a ton of problems deriving from having switched from 2 consecutive totalitarian regimes, to a representative one, but they are improving. The West instead, which boasts freedom and democracy is effectively undermining them both. The beacon of freedom, the US, right now has an ongoing war between a democratically elected president against the Neocon base both in the Republican party (McCain), the CIA (McMullin) and the Democratic party. Every single mainstream media is siding with the latter, which makes the US a semi-free country at best.

Lol, so when Russia does it, it's because they are a tyranny, but when the NSA/CIA do it, it's because of national security. Nope.

Ahahahah. You can't be serious on this one. The whole Snowden scandal was because the NSA spies citizens, not criminals. You are just spouting falsehood.

And the whole ''fake news'' crusade is aiming at shutting down independent journalism, which is what a totalitarian regime would do. So, the West is moving toward totalitarianism.

This is just conspiracy theories and logical fallacies. Everything that goes wrong in Russia is the West's fault, every social conflict in the West is proof of tyranny and social collapse, anyone who opposes Putin is working for a foreign government...

You keep talking to me as if I'm an internationalist leftist. As I told you, the choice isn't between the globalists and the Russians. We can and should oppose both.

I will research how much of Russia's wealth was "stolen" by people living in the West. Seems pretty interesting. Although it doesn't explain the oligarchs who remain in Russia and why Putin supports them.

Neocons did a regime change in Ukraine, overthrowing an elected government and replacing it with one of their cronies. That's an aggression. What should Russia do in front of Neocons aggression? Sit down and stand by? Because the Neocon declared goal is to either control Moscow or isolate it. Russians know this and once again that's why Putin's popularity when through the roof with the Crimea affair. He stood up to a Neocon aggression, he protected the Russian national interest against American imperialism.

You can't tell me that American imperialism is the US national interest and Russia shouldn't defend its own. It's illogical.

How in the world is a coup in the Ukraine an act of aggression against Russia? I am legitimately befuddled. See, that's what I mean when I mention the Russian government's propaganda. Your views aren't for an ideology; they are for Russia. Whatever Russia does is all right, whatever Russia's rivals do is bad. That's why I asked where you get your information. Russia is spending an unbelievable amount of effort on propaganda in the West. You have to be either very rational or very irrational not to fall for it.

There's a fair difference between ''isolationist'' and ''not wanting to start pointless wars''. Isis needs to be eradicated from earth, Russia, or Iran or any of the ''enemies of the West'' presented by Neocons are not an actual threat to the West.

Are Ukrainians and Georgians a threat to Russia? Why are there double standards for Russia and the West?

When America has a base in Kuwait, it is unnecessary imperialism.
A Russian base in Syria? Perfectly reasonable.

An American invasion to restore a pro-Western government after a coup? An act of aggression.
A Russian invasion to restore a base or a pro-Russian government after a coup? They're just protecting their national interest - a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

Sigh.