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Thread: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

  1. #3841
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    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    It seems to me that the Right in the US have completely shed any notion of core values or principles and are fully dedicated to political pragmatism. Yeah, I think they would Trump get away with almost anything as long as they think it won't directly effect them negatively. Republicans who moaned and whined over Obama's use of executive action are fully on board with unilateral action by Trump to do something they like: "Build that wall (even without Congressional approval)!"
    I wouldn't describe them as "the Right", it's a subset of the Right which largely disdains mainstream conservatism (i.e., classical liberalism). They're in the wrong, but much of the blame falls on the Left. When conservatives complained about Clinton's degradation of the dignity of the office, the Left didn't seem to care much about that. When Romney, arguably the cleanest presidential candidate in modern history, was nominated, that still didn't stop the Left from viciously smearing him as a misogynist, racist, etc. To make matters worse, the Left these days seems incredibly intent on marginalizing and even criminalizing conservative lifestyles and viewpoints. They seem to be under the impression that they've won some sort of war and now they need to clean up the remnants of the defeated army. A lot of people on the Right are now reasoning that if they'll be attacked no matter what politician they support, they might as well go with politicians who'll "fight" against the Left instead of playing nice and losing. But ultimately both the Right and the Left will need to learn to live and let live, instead of trying to win some sort of permanent national victory. If you support things like forcing businesses to participate in gay weddings, you're part of the problem. If you attack people, they're going to hit back. The best thing you can do is leave people alone unless they're actually violating someone's rights, at least when it comes to social issues. Most of the Trumpist/"New Right" seem fine with leftist economics.
    Last edited by Prodromos; June 12, 2019 at 06:18 PM.

  2. #3842

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    I wouldn't describe them as "the Right", it's a subset of the Right which largely disdains mainstream conservatism (i.e., classical liberalism). They're in the wrong, but much of the blame falls on the Left.
    Subset or not, they are kinda calling the shots for what the Republican party does. "Trump" is single biggest unifying factor for the Republican party, and, by extension, being reactionary to the Left. Beyond that, there doesn't seem to be a lot of platform on which the Right even remotely agree upon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    When conservatives complained about Clinton's degradation of the dignity of the office, the Left didn't seem to care much about that. When Romney, arguably the cleanest presidential candidate in modern history, was nominated, that still didn't stop the Left from viciously smearing him as a misogynist, racist, etc.
    Woah woah, we stepped off the deep end here. Sure Clinton lied about getting a blowjob while in office, but his overall presidential "decorum" was still miles ahead of what Trump brings to the table with his insults, unedited tweets, lack of knowledge about the history of the nations he is visiting, and so on. And what do you mean Romney was "smeared" as a bigot? The only social criticism from the Left I remember about Romney was his gaffe regarding the "binders full of women" comment that was more about Romney being out of touch rather than "He hates women!" Do you have an example of such intense smear from the mainstream Left?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    To make matters worse, the Left these days seems incredibly intent on marginalizing and even criminalizing conservative lifestyles and viewpoints.
    What are you even referring to here? What conservative lifestyles and viewpoints were criminalized by the Left?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    They seem to be under the impression that they've won some sort of war and now they need to clean up the remnants of the defeated army. A lot of people on the Right are now reasoning that if they'll be attacked no matter what politician they support, they might as well go with politicians who'll "fight" against the Left instead of playing nice and losing.
    I mean, Conservatives have been losing the "culture wars" to Liberals (capital L) for decades; miscegenation is legal now, conservatives lost that battle and we are generally glad they did. I would tend to call it "social progress" rather than a victory of a "culture war" because those people who were against the advancements are still around. But we generally see race relations and gender inclusiveness as having been much improved since 50 or even 30 years ago. The Conservatives can't have that back, the toothpaste is out of the tube. What I am confused about is the massive victim complex the Right has had ever since Obama came into office, which I guess relates to the question above of what exactly did the Left do that oppressed the Right so much? For 8 years under Obama I had to listen to hysterics about he was "coming after the guns" and over those 8 years Obama never once pushed for intense federal gun regulation; it was simply never going to happen. Why is the Right so jumpy when it comes to this stuff?
    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    But ultimately both the Right and the Left will need to learn to live and let live, instead of trying to win some sort of permanent national victory.
    I agree that there should be a balance between the two parties, I am not much in favor of single party politics, but I can never find anyone on the Right who will even meet me part way on some pretty critical issues such as: Climate Change, the global economy, sexual education and reproductive rights, voting rights and so on. It seems like they want bad outcomes for the Nation just to spite the Left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    If you support things like forcing businesses to participate in gay weddings, you're part of the problem. If you attack people, they're going to hit back. The best thing you can do is leave people alone unless they're actually violating someone's rights, at least when it comes to social issues.
    As a Liberal, I tend not to like the government "forcing" someone to do anything, but lets be careful with that. We tend to not think it is ok if a business were to refuse service to, say, a Veteran, handicapped person or other minority that is part of the Protected Groups. We have heard the "let us do things the way we do" spiel from the South in the 1950s and that wasn't cool. A bakery making a cake isn't the biggest deal in the world and is not what I would consider a worthy hill to die on. I am more concerned with certain Republican States doing some reeeal sketchy stuff with their voting laws that we all just kinda ignore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Most of the Trumpist/"New Right" seem fine with leftist economics.
    No they don't, they won't accommodate Climate Change at all with their economic planning, they are against regulation (unless they feel as if a corporation is targeting them), they don't care about social safety nets, or unions, or increased taxation on the very rich. They aren't close to economic leftists at all.
    Last edited by The spartan; June 13, 2019 at 04:39 AM.
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  3. #3843
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    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    I agree that there should be a balance between the two parties, I am not much in favor of single party politics, but I can never find anyone on the Right who will even meet me part way on some pretty critical issues such as: Climate Change, the global economy, sexual education and reproductive rights, voting rights and so on. It seems like they want bad outcomes for the Nation just to spite the Left.

    As a Liberal, I tend not to like the government "forcing" someone to do anything, but lets be careful with that. We tend to not think it is ok if a business were to refuse service to, say, a Veteran, handicapped person or other minority that is part of the Protected Groups. We have heard the "let us do things the way we do" spiel from the South in the 1950s and that wasn't cool. A bakery making a cake isn't the biggest deal in the world and is not what I would consider a worthy hill to die on. I am more concerned with certain Republican States doing some reeeal sketchy stuff with their voting laws that we all just kinda ignore.
    “Beware you are not a fiery, persecuting enthusiast. Do not imagine that God has called you (just contrary to the spirit of Him you style your Master) to destroy men’s lives, and not to save them. Never dream of forcing men into the ways of God. Think yourself, and let think. Use no constraint in matters of religion. Even those who are farthest out of the way never compel to come in by any other means than reason, truth, and love.” - John Wesley, The Nature of Enthusiasm
    There's no need to meet halfway through. Any sort of legislative compromise is likely to leave both sides dissatisfied and agitating for another round of conflict. It's not the government's job to socially engineer society, or to ban racism or opposition to homosexuality or whatever. The best system is to leave people alone as long as they're not violating anyone's rights. If you legitimately want to convert people and not just destroy them, then you do it via persuasion, not force. Coercion only creates a society of hypocrites, outwardly righteous but inwardly evil, which is worthless in the eyes of God. Someone who wants this sort of society isn't interested in doing God's will or saving souls, but in raising his or his religious group's social status and wielding power over other people. And make no mistake, everyone is religious. The belief that refusing to participate in a gay wedding is wrong is a religious belief.

    Mandating that people violate their conscience and participate in gay weddings or what have you is no different from mandating conformity to a state church. If liberty means anything, it means the right to discriminate. As long as no one's rights are being violated, it's not the government's business. You might not like it, but who cares? There's lots of things people think are immoral or don't like. People have the right to do stupid or immoral things. You can shun them or seek to persuade them, but you can't use the government to force them to submit to your moral beliefs.

    Once you start using the state as a tool to impose your beliefs on everyone by force, you give up any right to complain when other people do the same to you. The progressive state isn't neutral, it's attempting to impose its progressive belief system on the population by force, and other people (nationalists, Traditional Catholics, certain other high church Christians, you name it) are now reasoning that if the state isn't neutral, they might as well just take it over and use it to impose their own beliefs on everyone else, instead of having other people's beliefs imposed on them. You might think that's fine and they'll never win, but that's a pretty high-risk strategy. People aren't going down without a fight. The pendulum will swing back to the other side eventually. Even in atheist socialist Europe traditionalist nationalists are gaining power.

    There need to be strong legal and cultural safeguards in place to prevent governments from becoming tyrannical, or imposing one belief system or another on the population. That's the whole point of America; a place where you neither impose your beliefs on others nor have other people's beliefs imposed on you. The only way to save America is for everyone to accept that in a country as large and diverse as America, there can never be some sort of permanent cultural victory. People will have to live and let live, and adopt a culture of persuasion instead of relying on government force to defeat their opponents.

    No they don't, they won't accommodate Climate Change at all with their economic planning, they are against regulation (unless they feel as if a corporation is targeting them), they don't care about social safety nets, or unions, or increased taxation on the very rich. They aren't close to economic leftists at all.
    I don't know, have you seen Tucker Carlson's rants or read First Things lately? They're full-blown national socialists now. They want socialism combined with social conservatism, and as the saying goes, "when left-wing populism goes up against right-wing populism, left-wing populism loses every time." There's a reason they hate the Republican Party, and Bush, Cruz and Reagan even more than they hate the Democratic Party. They know that liberty-loving Republicans, not Democrats, are the biggest obstacle in their way, because they compete with them for the position of defenders of conservative Christianity. If you don't want these neo-Francoists to rise to power, then you'll need to stop trying to discredit and marginalize traditional conservatives (i.e., classical liberals), otherwise you'll only empower the "New Right" and legitimize their claim that only they can successfully defend against the Left's onslaught.

    You can start by looking for common ground with conservatives and Christians whenever possible, and adopt a live-and-let-live attitude toward them in the public sphere instead of shunning and marginalizing them. Personally, I've been trying to be understanding and conciliatory toward moderate liberals in the past few months. They're weird people, they're big into virtue signalling and everything, but in their personal lives they're kind of normal and conservative, so we're not that different after all, the differences just get a disproportionate amount of attention. Even one person can make a difference. If a conservatives complains about the way liberals are treating him, they won't care at all, but if a liberal makes the complaint for him, they'll stop and listen, because he's on their side. One person can break the echo chamber.

    The Old World is looking at America, and laughing. They're doing their best to rile up conservative and liberal Americans alike in the hope that the country falls apart. Check it out. Their concern trolling doesn't fool me, but maybe some people out there are falling for it. The Old World wants the American project, of liberty and morality and ethnic/religious pluralism, to fail. That way they can excuse and justify their own failings. They can tell themselves, "see, America's founding ideals were bound to fail. Americans aren't better than us. They're just as worthless as we are." (no offense to Old Worlders; just trying to make a point)

    Well I'm not interested in letting that happen. I hope you aren't either.
    Last edited by Prodromos; June 15, 2019 at 07:04 AM.

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