Thread: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

  1. #3941

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I'm enjoying this handwaving. You do realize that's not an adequate explanation of your opinion, right? You can keep saying you already answered previous points, without actually doing it. Can't force you.
    You're just prattling on repeating the same points over and over again.

    It makes no sense because the OLC and the Justice Department are not bodies recognized by the Constitution. So no, the policy literally has nothing to do with the Constitution aside from the fact that this is their interpretation of the principal-agent problem inherent to having a Justice department in the Executive branch. I.e., the justice department is under the President's chain of command, and he can theoretically order all of this to go away cording to Keith from Princeton.
    Another point repeated. If you want to write a letter to the OLC outlining why their rationale (that indicting a sitting president is unconstitutional) is wrong, you are free to do so. I'm sure they'll be thoroughly convinced by a Vox article.

  2. #3942

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    You're just prattling on repeating the same points over and over again.
    I wouldn't, if you stopped dodging them.

    Another point repeated. If you want to write a letter to the OLC outlining why their rationale (that indicting a sitting president is unconstitutional) is wrong, you are free to do so. I'm sure they'll be thoroughly convinced by a Vox article.
    You're under the impression that I'm of the opinion that the OLC is wrong or right. That's a mistake, I'm simply stating what it is. You're misunderstanding what the Justice Department policy is and how it affects the Mueller report. That's what the Vox article is for. It explains what the OLC policy is, how Mueller understood it, and how it can be interpreted otherwise.

  3. #3943

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I wouldn't, if you stopped dodging them.
    Nothing was dodged. You're consistently repeating the false claims that the evidence against the president is "overwhelming" or "extremely strong" despite the fact that this is neither what the report states or implies. The only evidence it found which was overwhelming was that Russia had interfered in the 2016 presidential election. It could have used the same language to describe the evidence against the president but chose not to, and not, as I have pointed out, because it was disallowed from doing so by the OCL. At best, the report shows Trump may have made a half-hearted attempt to ask the man with the final say, Rosenstein, to remove Mueller - and it hasn't even been properly established whether, even if this were true, it would be tantamount to attempting to obstruct justice. So as I've said, you are free to indulge in your own interpretation of reality, but don't expect me to constantly respond to reiterated versions of the same point.

    You're under the impression that I'm of the opinion that the OLC is wrong or right. That's a mistake, I'm simply stating what it is. You're misunderstanding what the Justice Department policy is and how it affects the Mueller report. That's what the Vox article is for. It explains what the OLC policy is, how Mueller understood it, and how it can be interpreted otherwise.
    The only reason we're talking about this is because you reacted angrily to my argument that indicting the president would be unconstitutional. This is despite the fact that the OCL policy which prevents the president from being indicted is literally predicated on the rationale that indicting a sitting president would be unconstitutional. I couldn't care less whether or not Vox were able to dig up some lawyers who disagree with the policy: they too can write to the OCL demanding that the policy is altered.

  4. #3944

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Nothing was dodged. You're consistently repeating the false claims that the evidence against the president is "overwhelming" or "extremely strong" despite the fact that this is neither what the report states or implies. The only evidence it found which was overwhelming was that Russia had interfered in the 2016 presidential election. It could have used the same language to describe the evidence against the president but chose not to, and not, as I have pointed out, because it was disallowed from doing so by the OCL. At best, the report shows Trump may have made a half-hearted attempt to ask the man with the final say, Rosenstein, to remove Mueller - and it hasn't even been properly established whether, even if this were true, it would be tantamount to attempting to obstruct justice. So as I've said, you are free to indulge in your own interpretation of reality, but don't expect me to constantly respond to reiterated versions of the same point.
    You're pretending to be stating "reality", whereas really, you just interpreted facts in a manner that benefits your political beliefs. The evidence is extremely strong, and anybody who sat down and bothered to read the report will say the same thing. Unless of course, they are politically motivated to look for any excuse to deny this basic truth. Mueller not using the words "overwhelming" or "extremely strong" does not mean the evidence is not such. The report is written professionally, and Mueller stated himself that he wrote it without making a judgement or a recommendation to avoid violating the policy of the Justice department. "Half-hearted" is just blatantly dishonest, the entire saga spanned over several days from the moment that Mueller was appointed, to the day that Trump called McGahn twice. This wasn't a half-hearted attempt. It was an entire ing saga about how upset Trump was over the special investigation and was looking for any reason to curtail it or remove Mueller.



    The only reason we're talking about this is because you reacted angrily to my argument that indicting the president would be unconstitutional. This is despite the fact that the OCL policy which prevents the president from being indicted is literally predicated on the rationale that indicting a sitting president would be unconstitutional. I couldn't care less whether or not Vox were able to dig up some lawyers who disagree with the policy: they too can write to the OCL demanding that the policy is altered.
    It's not written anywhere in the Constitution that you can't indict the President. As I said before, the OCL policy a self-imposed limitation, and if you're at all capable of understanding how the chain of command works, you can easily see the problem of having the Special Counsel being under the direct chain of command of the President, who is the one of the targets of the investigation.

  5. #3945

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    You're pretending to be stating "reality", whereas really, you just interpreted facts in a manner that benefits your political beliefs.
    Projection.

    The evidence is extremely strong, and anybody who sat down and bothered to read the report will say the same thing. Unless of course, they are politically motivated to look for any excuse to deny this basic truth. Mueller not using the words "overwhelming" or "extremely strong" does not mean the evidence is not such. The report is written professionally, and Mueller stated himself that he wrote it without making a judgement or a recommendation to avoid violating the policy of the Justice department. "Half-hearted" is just blatantly dishonest, the entire saga spanned over several days from the moment that Mueller was appointed, to the day that Trump called McGahn twice. This wasn't a half-hearted attempt. It was an entire ing saga about how upset Trump was over the special investigation and was looking for any reason to curtail it or remove Mueller.
    You're just repeating yourself again. As I said, you are free to your interpretation, dramatic and ill-considered though it is.

    It's not written anywhere in the Constitution that you can't indict the President. As I said before, the OCL policy a self-imposed limitation, and if you're at all capable of understanding how the chain of command works, you can easily see the problem of having the Special Counsel being under the direct chain of command of the President, who is the one of the targets of the investigation.
    I don't know why you're persisting with this. Legal professionals constantly infer constitutionality where no explicit instruction is given in the document: not everything can be unambiguously covered in a ~5000 word writ. Even in instances where an instruction is explicit or has already been determined by the Supreme Court people will disagree over its meaning, hence the need for constant legal revision. The OCL determined that indicting a sitting president would be unconstitutional and, based on the rationale they provided, I agree with them. If you want to find some way either of convincing the OCL of removing or revising the policy or of having the Supreme Court conclusively determine that indicting a sitting president is legal, you are free to do so.

  6. #3946

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Projection.
    Selective reading.

    You're just repeating yourself again. As I said, you are free to your interpretation, dramatic and ill-considered though it is.
    You're avoiding, again.

    I don't know why you're persisting with this. Legal professionals constantly infer constitutionality where no explicit instruction is given in the document: not everything can be unambiguously covered in a ~5000 word writ. Even in instances where an instruction is explicit or has already been determined by the Supreme Court people will disagree over its meaning, hence the need for constant legal revision. The OCL determined that indicting a sitting president would be unconstitutional and, based on the rationale they provided, I agree with them. If you want to find some way either of convincing the OCL of removing or revising the policy or of having the Supreme Court conclusively determine that indicting a sitting president is legal, you are free to do so.
    Mueller deliberately didn't state a conclusion or recommendation because of government policy. Not because a conclusion or recommendation was impossible to reach given the evidence in the report. Nowhere does he state that it is impossible to construct a case, or to charge the President, or to convict him. I'm not sure why you ever brought up the Constitution to begin with. That was never something I had contention with, because it's irrelevant.

  7. #3947
    B. W.'s Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    The rumor mill in Washington is starting to buzz about a possible James Comey indictment:

    https://www.americanthinker.com/blog...mes_comey.html

  8. #3948

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Who cares? the democrat moron Russia conspiracy has been dead for months. Not even the laughable democrat idiots in the house majority can agree to introduce articles of impeachment.

    God I hope they pursue this, please, please, please, try to impeach Trump based on whatever you think crime exists.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; August 01, 2019 at 08:33 PM.

  9. #3949

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/jus...memos-n1038326

    Have fun. And that’s either in spite of or because of the IG office btw.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  10. #3950
    B. W.'s Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/jus...memos-n1038326

    Have fun. And that’s either in spite of or because of the IG office btw.
    Your article fails to mention that Comey is still under investigation for more serious FISA warrant violations. The IG RECOMMENDED that he be prosecuted. When you use your position in the DJ to try and take out a legitimately elected President and fail you can be sure that there will be consequences. I guess you haven't noticed that Comey doesn't seem to be his usual talkative self.

  11. #3951

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    I really don't care what Comey does or doesn't do. The DoJ is declining to press charges over his memos. I suppose Trump can go on a twitter rant about it and back a US Attorney into a corner. Or he could fire someone for not pressing charges and get someone who will. But, whatever the IG says should happen, Trump's DoJ isn't biting. I think that's...ironic given all the ranting to hell and back over Comey having a decision dumped on him regarding Hillary by then-AG Loretta Lynch.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  12. #3952

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by B. W. View Post
    Your article fails to mention that Comey is still under investigation for more serious FISA warrant violations. The IG RECOMMENDED that he be prosecuted. When you use your position in the DJ to try and take out a legitimately elected President and fail you can be sure that there will be consequences. I guess you haven't noticed that Comey doesn't seem to be his usual talkative self.

    That's not what your link reports. I would wait until the official report is released.

  13. #3953
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    So Comey should be indicted because he leaked Trump's attempts to obstruct justice. Give me a break.
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
    - John Adams, on the White House, in a letter to Abigail Adams (2 November 1800)

  14. #3954

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Considering that Russiagate is actually Britaingate, anyone involved should be tried for treason for conspiring with a foreign country to undermine the sitting president. Typical case where liberals screech about treason when it's their side committing it.

  15. #3955

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    anyone involved should be tried for treason for conspiring with a foreign country to undermine the sitting president.
    Good luck making that stick.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  16. #3956

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Basil, oddly I see you throw around the word "treason", as well as politically motivated punishments, more than anyone else I see in this part of the forums.
    Last edited by The spartan; August 02, 2019 at 03:31 PM.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  17. #3957

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Anyway, can your side please impeach Trump?

  18. #3958

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Only once you stop thinking in monoliths.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  19. #3959

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    So, what Democrats in Congress do... depends on me? I like that game. Always thought they were a bunch of worthless puppets.

  20. #3960

    Default Re: The Putin - Trump Controversy: Here to Stay - Links between Trump and Russia are being officially investigated by the FBI

    Go call them up and issue orders if you want, just don't tell me what I believe/want.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

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