[Idea] New approach to public order

[Maetharin]

Since we have a positive and negative "percentage" of it, PO is IMO way to predictable.
You always know in which province a rebellion's going to start, if not in which exact region.

I have two ideas for this and if possible I'd like to see both of them implemented:
1) Would it be possible for rebellions to start before 100 PO negative?
2)Would it be possible to hide both the PO percentage and the countdown which tells you in how many rounds a rebellion starts?

Both of these would serve to make rebellions rather unpredictable, especially of we also get rid of the "rebellion imminent" message.
Maybe make the PO percentage only visible with either a governor or spy in the vicinity

[son of romans]

The game is hard enought. All my empire is in rebellions just because I don't have enought own faction influence...so for those who like turtle campaign should be a mod.

[Dresden]

There is a campaign variable, if I remember, that sets the minimum PO level. I have never tested it before. As far as removing the text for turns from rebellion that is more problematic. You can remove the text but probably not the number I would guess.

The issue is that it would still be a specific PO level that would trigger it, not a random one. Maybe that could be scripted somehow but I am not sure.

[leonardusius]

Since we have a positive and negative "percentage" of it, PO is IMO way to predictable.
You always know in which province a rebellion's going to start, if not in which exact region.

I have two ideas for this and if possible I'd like to see both of them implemented:
1) Would it be possible for rebellions to start before 100 PO negative?
2)Would it be possible to hide both the PO percentage and the countdown which tells you in how many rounds a rebellion starts?

Both of these would serve to make rebellions rather unpredictable, especially of we also get rid of the "rebellion imminent" message.
Maybe make the PO percentage only visible with either a governor or spy in the vicinity

IMHO, bad ideas.

[Maetharin]

May I ask why you think they are bad ideas?
Because IMO you can´t quantify actual public order.
IMO it would work best if you only knew from the smiley colour how bad PO was, combined with Magnar´s "A reasonable populace" mod.

[leonardusius]

May I ask why you think they are bad ideas?
Because IMO you can´t quantify actual public order.
IMO it would work best if you only knew from the smiley colour how bad PO was, combined with Magnar´s "A reasonable populace" mod.

Because the principle is getting too way philosophical: '' Give a hungry man a loaf of bread and he will get more satisfaction from it than a man who has eaten all he can.'' it's a relativisation of the concept.
Plus that ''Outraged : +6 public order
-1 public order factionwide ''
it's plain stupidity. That means your very happy people will get negative public order which is gamely illogical.

[Felius]

Because the principle is getting too way philosophical: '' Give a hungry man a loaf of bread and he will get more satisfaction from it than a man who has eaten all he can.'' it's a relativisation of the concept.
Plus that ''Outraged : +6 public order
-1 public order factionwide ''
it's plain stupidity. That means your very happy people will get negative public order which is gamely illogical.

Ehh, I could see that happening. Or rather, not so much that they get negative public order in the sense that they don't like being happy, but in the sense that public order would tend to converge to 0, instead of converging to either -100 or 100.

Speaking of which, is it just my impression or the AI cheats for public order even on lower difficulties? I rarely find any AI province with less than 100 PO unless it's just conquered and/or I send in my agents to over their PO.

And finally, of it being too predictable: I'd question it a bit, or rather, I've been finding that the predicted number tends to not actually be all that representative, specially when you're close to rebellions.

[Daergar]

May I ask why you think they are bad ideas?
Because IMO you can´t quantify actual public order.
IMO it would work best if you only knew from the smiley colour how bad PO was, combined with Magnar´s "A reasonable populace" mod.

Go ahead and make a sub-mob, problem solved.

Personally I prefer the system as it currently works, though I suppose random events could be added as flavor; water shortage drives the populace mad, pirates raided the grain shipments causing famine, anti-religious mob damages the region's temple, random slave rebellions outside public order et cetera.

That way you get to keep the numbered and predictable system (X amount of force to keep population Y in check and so on), yet add some randomized element to it outside the minor effects of seasons.

[Maetharin]

Because the principle is getting too way philosophical: '' Give a hungry man a loaf of bread and he will get more satisfaction from it than a man who has eaten all he can.'' it's a relativisation of the concept.
Plus that ''Outraged : +6 public order
-1 public order factionwide ''
it's plain stupidity. That means your very happy people will get negative public order which is gamely illogical.

Well I was referring to why you think my idea of keeping the specifics of PO hidden and randomising rebellions were stupid,
not the "Reasonable Populace" mod, so would you also kindly refer to them?

Go ahead and make a sub-mob, problem solved.

Personally I prefer the system as it currently works, though I suppose random events could be added as flavor; water shortage drives the populace mad, pirates raided the grain shipments causing famine, anti-religious mob damages the region's temple, random slave rebellions outside public order et cetera.

That way you get to keep the numbered and predictable system (X amount of force to keep population Y in check and so on), yet add some randomized element to it outside the minor effects of seasons.

Why do you think I asked if it were possible?
I have no idea about UI modding and/or scripting.

Anyway, my problem with the current system is that it´s really predictable,
which, as history shows us manifold, isn´t how it worked.

[MisterClever]

At some point you just have to surrender some of the facets of realism and just enjoy the game. But hey, by all means, if you make a sub mod they must be people out there that want total chaos in their games

I do understand your basic premise though, but i think the system represents cultural and political upheaval for the very limited mechanics that is, well enough.

[Sonny WiFiHr]

Event chain for rebellion sound nice. Large army rebellion to force you in region . Taking settlement choice should affect it. You raze settelment expect rebellions for 200 years (they want you dead because you are killing them). Looted 150 years of revenge - remember the Alexander the Great and his reason to go conquer. Occupied 100 (you humiliated us we want revenge). + Cultural difference rebellion (we just hate you and you are not my ruler and you are offending my gods). Every few years rebellions (not every turn). Huge uprising to simulate 2nd and usually 3rd war against faction. Hate last for centuries. Putting governor and general to control region - when did this actually work in whole history . Military presence is only answer. You must kill - to conquer. Now I just training my army in those provinces. If event chain can go to for big rebel alliance + rebel confederation. You conquer to much to fast - you will lose . Traits should be nerfed - you are forcing people to your rule. Huge military presence + huge income deficit is more accurate.

Would you surrender ? Would you allow to enslave your family? Would you forgive murder of your dearest?

[nunz]

I think your ideas would be interesting in a game that is focused on the campaign map, something like Crusader Kings or a Paradox game, but I don't think it fits in a game like Total War, which seems to focus more on the real-time battles and using the campaign map as a way to bring variation and a dynamic element to those battles. I will say that if your ideas were implemented in DEI, I would most likely never play Rome2 again. Public order, as it stands currently, can be difficult to manage because of a multitude of other factors - conquest, culture, slaves, raiding, seasons, etc. Making the PO number invisible would make the campaign map extremely frustrating, especially in the early game. Factions like the Ptolemoi would be annoying to play to the point of avoiding them entirely if PO was not visible, as public order is the main challenge (imo) with them, mostly due to the cultural differences. I'm not opposed to removing the "Rebellion Imminent" notification, but most of the time you already knew it was coming anyway.

I don't think your ideas are stupid, but I don't think they fit a Total War game, especially with the many challenges DEI already puts on players when it comes to the campaign map.

[Maetharin]

Thx for voicing your opinion^^

I wouldn´t want DeI to integrate it into the main mod, I´d rather add it as a submod,
but alas, my own incompetence stands in my way.

[nunz]

There is nothing incompetent about you sharing some different ideas that could potentially add something to this great mod we all play. Your idea wasn't stupid! Don't let anyone tell you that.

I'm personally totally against the idea of making PO invisible, but I think a combination of JCB and your idea could work. Let's say, if PO is between 0-15, you have a 15% chance of a rebellion every time you hit End Turn. Between 16-30, there's a 10x% chance of rebellion, etc. You could also tie the rebellion chance to Imperium, so that the higher your Imperium gets, the higher the risk of rebellion at lower PO numbers - so that 15% chance of rebellion at 0-15 PO could become 20% at Imperium 5. Dresden has been quite outspoken on how it is rather difficult to make the late game more challenging. I think this idea could really help the late game remain a challenge, as rebellion would be more likely at higher Imperium levels - it would be even more realistic if rebellion was on the frontier provinces, and those farthest from your capital. If you're playing as Rome, and you have conquered into Egypt, then the chances of rebellion should be quite high! Combine the percentage number with, as JCB said, larger rebellion armies, and you have a good mix between the two that would add some dynamic to the campaign map.

The only issue with this, is that it would require a lot of scripting (I'm not a modder but even I can tell this would take quite a bit of work) and add to turn times, as well as create potential issues as this would be a script that had to run every.single.turn. The chances of a script like this running so frequently, and not having a single error that either crashes or breaks in a 250 turn campaign seems close to zero to me.

[JCB206]

Would this idea work?

Could it be treated like the Civil War script? If PO say gets to +20 you would a "low chance" of rebellion. Then medium and high chance. This way it could be unpredictable yet wouldn't happen when the province is happy. You would have to have a large number of disgruntled people. Also, the low, medium, high chance could determine the size of the rebellion.

If you have a low chance, not a big deal since 4 units wouldn't cause as much disruption plus the chance would be small. The large would be more likely and the army would be 16-20 units, which would make it very hard to not lose a region.

Just a thought. Like the original idea. I have zero fears from rebellions.

[Little Legionaire]

Since we have a positive and negative "percentage" of it, PO is IMO way to predictable.
You always know in which province a rebellion's going to start, if not in which exact region.

I have two ideas for this and if possible I'd like to see both of them implemented:
1) Would it be possible for rebellions to start before 100 PO negative?
2)Would it be possible to hide both the PO percentage and the countdown which tells you in how many rounds a rebellion starts?

Both of these would serve to make rebellions rather unpredictable, especially of we also get rid of the "rebellion imminent" message.
Maybe make the PO percentage only visible with either a governor or spy in the vicinity

For example -50 public order means %50 "chance" of rebellion -75 PO means %75. To make it unpredictable. IMO, before hitting -100 PO that'd be an interesting implementation. -50 could be a psychological barrier of rebellion possibility. The number itself tells its story of more than half of the population is unhappy and ready to go rebel.

I'm not expert of such things when it comes to implementation of such mechanics into the mod/game and this is just brainstorming but i liked the idea a lot.