1.2 Hugely Nerfed Hoplite

[corsair831]

I've tested Hoplite in every possible way I can think of now; in Phalanx mode, out of Phalanx mode, everything. Before this patch, they were a decent unit. After this patch (and hours of testing them), they're just useless. Head to head a unit of Catuirios Calgo (cost 700) will handily beat a unit of Athenian Hoplite (cost 1000), no matter how you use them. Don't even bother trying to use them against heavy infantry, they'll be decimated.

As swordsmen, they're simply significantly inferior for the cost to other swordsmen units in the game.

As spearmen, which is how they're supposed to be used, it doesn't matter how you use them. I've tried absolutely everything; 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ranks deep, against enemy swords, spears, heavy infantry, light infantry. They're just rubbish. If you leave them to their own devices after telling them to attack once, they will get almost no kills. If you micromanage them and tell them to attack every so often, they'll get a few, but still lose a majority of the time. They can't even charge in the phalanx formation in this version.

The main problem seems to be that because of the new mechanic where they get their swords, individual soldiers readily leave the formation, get isolated and killed alone, and the other soldiers don't move forwards to help them. If you do it manually, the entire formation goes in and loses soldiers whilst doing so, goes into the middle of an enemy formation and the enemies then curl around the side and start hitting them in the back.

Pleaseeee can this be fixed in some way, or perhaps revert them to how they were in a previous version, because this is making it simply impossible to play Athens or Sparta, and I completely love as playing as the hellenic factions, but they totally rely on Hoplite, and in this version they're just useless.

(not trying to complain too hard, love your work, just thought this needed fixing ^^)

[KAM 2150]

I have no words...I guess hundreads of kills they deal in each of my battles and dozens of hours of testing mean nothing...

[corsair831]

I have no words...I guess hundreads of kills they deal in each of my battles and dozens of hours of testing mean nothing...

I've tested them very extensively now, how exactly are you using them to get these kills please? As I have found no way whatsoever that they get these hundreds of kills. In the last version I could use them in the roman checkerboard fashion 5 ranks deep and as charging units and they were brilliant, in this version I can't find a single way to use them effectively.

(Also I looked up what you said earlier about greek peltasts; at a cost of 425 (greek peltasts), versus the arvernii youths (350), the arvernii javelinmen have vastly better stats. Given the Hoplite nerf, I can't see a single way the Hellenic factions have any advantages whatsoever on the battlefield in this version )

[Hoplitus]

MmhhIMO Hoplites are better than ever... Finally they are really different from other troops like usual spearmen. They are really hard to kill and seem to keep fighting like forever if managed properly

Also in my battles they kill a lot of enemies.

[gornoviceanu]

Uhm, hoplites are VERY good in my battles, I find them to be very reliable especially when holding the line.

When holding the line I suggest using phalanx stance and not giving any attack order. That's how I use them and they are always reliable and perform well.

[KAM 2150]

Wtf with Greek Peltasts at 425 cost? They are not peltasts, they are psiloi! They are poorest soldiers on the field and they are not Peltasts! They do not even have Peltast in their name...

[Whitehead221]

From what I have gathered they will lose in many one on one engagements (especially against swordsmen which makes sense), however they are excellent at holding a line and occupying enemy troops. I have found that using a mix of hoplites and skirmisher type units as Sparta has worked wonders for me. I have taken Macedonia as well as pushed into Thrace. I have also expanded into Libue and pushed up the coast into Syria and I am currently also pushing through Asia. So far this type of army has worked well for me, but I can see where a hoplite army would not do so well. I do still get quite a few kills with the hoplites though, so I am unsure as to why yours wouldn't be getting any kills.

[Wolf Priest]

Can you 1 vs 1 with me, please, I will pick any non-successor Hellenic faction you want, I will show you how to use them, or 2 vs 2, but I never played multiplayer so we will probably lose . I'm working on DeI tutorial right now, but long story short, they are Anvil, a main line troops, a heart of army, easily capable of holding of several barbarian units. Its kinda like old Rome I hoplites with guard mode. Also, because of engine, single man cant get isolated, because of weird duel thingy, so its always one on one combat. Last but not least, KAM knows history and KAM knows DeI, he made hoplite rework, so if he says anything about it, its truth. If he says everything I just said is false, its false (well beside last part, as it would be paradox). I generally really dislike Polish people, so he must be really great for me to say (well write) all this, and he is. Also, there is not a singe useless or worthless units in DeI, I won battles with leavies (non-AoR units from main building chain, lovingly named "trash mob") only, its just that some units are more flexible than others.

[KAM 2150]

Also 1v1 tests are never something to consider as that is not how it works in battle plus in 1v1, hoplites will be always flanked. As for the thing with single man isolated, it is in the game and it has own mechanics, it just lacks proper visual representation as there are no 2v1 animations.

[Wolf Priest]

It just switches pairs, I think, but I am not sure. I am sure however its way less effective than in Rome 1. When I say 1 vs 1, I meant armies not units (my army vs his in multiplayer).

[Whitehead221]

This is one aspect I am truly enjoying about DEI. The diversity among factions keeps the battles interesting. Each faction for the most part requires a different play style. I failed miserably in my first Sparta campaign. My problem was using too many hoplites (especially early on), I couldn't maintain a treasury and they are not intended to plow through other troops. During my second attempt I utilized the hoplite's in a more elite manner (only having a few in an army) and keep them as a main line to hold the enemy while a flank with my cheaper lighter troops. It hasn't failed me yet! (In campaign anyways)

[Beedo83]

It may be helpful to repost what you were explaining in the other hoplite thread. I also had no idea how to properly utilize hoplites until I stumbled on that thread. The way hoplites work now are not advertised in game very well and it can get frustrating quickly in the heat of battle and hoplites are seemingly acting strangely or not obeying orders.


-From KAM2150
"Also the "feel" of Greek armies is different compared to Diadochi armies as your hoplites will lose 1v1 against pikes and their cavalry with also beat yours but...that is how it went (if we talk about 1v1 scenario). It only makes it more interesting, since you won't play the same way with them as you need to adapt other tactics. Ok, so your cavalry is medicore or you do not have access to solid cavalry at all? Then use Ekdromoi hoplites to flank your enemies and put good use to their speed and high charge value. Again, early Sparta is great example as your crappy cavalry takes from 1st pop class but you also have access to Spartan Youths who can perform the same task or even be better at it. Then again, if enemy will have ranged cav or very light ranged units, those crappy Spartan horsemen might be a lot more useful than Spartan Youths.


As for hoplite mechanics, if you put them on defence, they will be great at being charged since they might kill more enemies than lose their own during it. Although, if you leave them in defence, they won't kill that much but will also take casualties much slower than most other units, but you need to check from time to time if their formation is not breaking under enemy pressure. If you want to press on against your enemy or you are afraid that their formation is losing cohesion, then press attack as they will push forward and reform ranks while also being a lot more agressive on attack (at the cost of higher chance of casualties). The most difficult thing is to feel the right moment since pressing forward too soon or against too strong enemies (if their is big quality gap) might do you no good as you will lose a lot of men but used at the right time will break enemies easily."

-From KYREAPER
1. If using phalanx as main battleline...
--Form a wall of hoplites in defense mode --> they will hold the enemy in place longer than anyone else.
--Now flank with youre reserves or pelasts.

2. if flanking any unit with hoplites...
---Turn off phalanx and let them use swords(they will kick ass now when flanking). Otherwise they will not actually flank, but keep their distance from the backs of enemies.

3. If using phalanx as 1v1 unit in open field...
---use phalanx, but once they engage the enemy unit, DOUBLE click to attack the enemy unit again. This will make put them in offensive phalanx and you will see them push forward with their phalanx, allowing the 3rd row of the phalanx to now attack, giving them an incredible edge in the fight.
---(if using as main battleline, dont ever double click for them to attack... they will go out of position and get flanked and die quicker).

[Daergar]

Just had to chime in that I've found hoplites to be completely awesome in 1.2.

Playing Arche Bosperus for the first time, the basic levy hoplite let me conquer my nearest neighbours (12 hoplites, 7 archers) by just forming a line in phalanx mode and wearing them down. Same deal now that the campaign has evolved a bit, just with the basic ("three times the cost"-basic) Bosporian hoplite and those fellas never break.

I even deploy them in pure squares now; form a basic stretched line, then reduce the frontage with the keyboard shortcut until you got a line of spiked boxes ala Roman checkered formation. Anything that charges you takes a nice hit in the center of their line and when wrap around the box, ready to be hit with missile fire or another unit.

I find that the hoplites hold even better than a phalanx since they can actually cover their own flanks without going to pieces.

Saying they are nerfed is basically proclaiming you are clueless, sorry.

[Kolaris8472]

I don't like the new Hoplites either, but if I'm in the minority then I'm glad. They certainly look the part, but I don't find them historically accurate nor particularly effective units. Plus the AI's Hoplites work much differently than the player's.

[KAM 2150]

but I don't find them historically accurate

Than please give me examples how to make them historically accurate, because besides Hellenika (which has the best hoplites in TW games so far but their ideas are not possible in our timeframe due to other formations in work), there is no better way to make hoplites work historically. If you think the way they worked in 1.1 or vanilla is better, than I am not even bothering with further reading. Currently you can use hoplites in phalanx, both as defensive and offensive force, you can push enemies back or let them push you back, you can fight out of phalanx and use many other tactics.

[Kolaris8472]

Than please give me examples how to make them historically accurate, because besides Hellenika (which has the best hoplites in TW games so far but their ideas are not possible in our timeframe due to other formations in work), there is no better way to make hoplites work historically. If you think the way they worked in 1.1 or vanilla is better, than I am not even bothering with further reading. Currently you can use hoplites in phalanx, both as defensive and offensive force, you can push enemies back or let them push you back, you can fight out of phalanx and use many other tactics.

I don't have much experience with vanilla so I don't mean that you've somehow made things worse than whatever CA threw together. Quite likely this is the best that can be done within the limits of the game engine.

The basic issue I have is that hoplites act like phalangites. They're the anvil for your Peltasts and Ekdromoi, but that's how Macedonians fought not Greeks. I guess you could argue that if the Greeks had fought that way they'd have been more effective, and I have no response to that. But trying to use your hoplites as an offensive hammer is ineffective, even in situations where it historically excelled.

The other problem is flanked Hoplites. Rather than being extremely vulnerable to flanking I find them particularly resistant to it due to their compact formation. But, again, I'm not saying this is a design decision on your part - just the deficiencies of the warscape engine.

[KYREAPER]

To make Hoplites historically accurate:

I say you give them a nice buff to their combat abilities(making them more effective at killing and defending) ... THEN increase the moral penalty for BEHIND flanks... not side flanks bcuz that always happens even if the unit isnt really flanked from the side.

Make the behind flank bonus much much harsher, because if a phalanx got flanked in the back it was SHATTERED.

This way, phalanxes KICK ASS from the front against everything besides pikes.. so they can actually kill and finish enemies dumb enuff from the front.. assuming peltasts didnt skirmish them down...

This makes them more historically accurate, and against players their buffs will allow them to be a more effective killing unit, making their wall of spears much better, and if they get in a 1v1 and dont get flanked, they should win. Now they would be good vs players.

Against the AI, sure they will just run into the front, but if your edges arent secure and the end of ur line breaks, and u get flanked in the back(yes, the AI does this if ur wings get broke) then now with the BEHIND flanking penalty you will get shattered, route, be too slow bcuz of all the army and mass that you suffer massive casualties..

Historically accurate, more effective, makes sense.

Just my opinion.

[pastinho]

Which ones can hold line longer in your opinion ? Phalangati or hoplites ? It is 192 vs 150 on large squads, it seems make a difference.

[KYREAPER]

ANOTHER option: Hear me out on this one till the end... had a big breakthrough thought... Kam think about it, test privately maybe..

MAKE PHALANX FORMATION LOWER MORALE.

"what?? why the hell would phalanx lower morale?"
-- Dont think about it in terms of realism.. think about it in terms of how it would play-out in the game, and then realize that what im about to explain would be realistic.

1. Make hoplite phalanx DRASTICALLY increase melee defense BIG time.. more closer to the pike bonuses..

2. Then, increase the penalty for being flanked directly from BEHIND.. not from the side, for reasons explained in the previous post.

3. Make Phalanx formation LOWER morale from its base amount.
--Why?
Answer: This would cause the phalanx to break sooner if attacked from directly behind(realistic) due to lower morale from being locked in tight formation in phalanx... suddenly everyone is facing forward and getting stabbed in the back taking big casualties, then breaking bcuz formation was shattered. But from the front, their huge melee defense would make them very hard to defeat. It requires strategy to beat them instead of muscle - (either flanking them or skirmishing them down before charging).

When they are NOT in phalanx mode, they would have their base morale and act as swordsmen in loser formation - capable of turning to fight flankers, thus not getting the morale penalty by being in phalanx mode(with my idea). The penalty for this would be being less effective fighters overall bcuz of not getting a huge melee defense buff to make them handle enemies from the front..

4. LOWER the morale penalty for flanking from the SIDE.
Why?
-- Because I believe I read that the way flanking penalties work is... if you get flanked from behind, you have the "side flanked" and "back flanked" penalties BOTH place on you... which means that the little bug when a hoplite unit gets auto flanked from the side just bcuz a few soldiers wrap around the formation wont cause the phalanx's lower morale to shatter just bcuz the a few guys wrapped around the unit, not really flanking it.

So lower the side penalty.

The REASON its OK to lower the side flanking penalty is because a unit being side flanked STILL basically has the automatic penalty of being outnumbered and probably gonna lose anyways... it doesnt NECESSARILY need a moral penalty for being flanked in the side. Just let them being outnumbered and hit 1v2 or 1v3 be enough for them to die out and route anyways...

THIS way the lowered morale from the phalanx formation wouldnt cause them to break at all from the buggy side flanks... but instead would more reliably break from being hit in the BACK... which then justifies buffing them big to stats to balance them.

Their buffed stats would basically be simulating their incredible fighting skill from the front... bcuz the moral penalty would simulate their fighting skill being diminished when hit from the back causing them to break due to shattered formation.


Think about it..
It may work PERFECTLY..

Personally, i think from the front, hoplite phalanx units should be able to win fights vs 1 tier ABOVE them(from the front). Versus 2 tiers above them they should lose.. but they should win vs 1 tier above them to simulate the fighting skill of the formation.

This, i think, would make them perfect and historically accurate.

NOW... the REASON its important to make the PHALANX formation give lower morale... is so that just "behind flanking" every other non-phalanx unit in the game doesnt make THEM break as fast as it would the phalanx.. Like Roman principes or something.

THEN you would actually need to BUFF the morale of every unit in the game so that the increased "behind flanking" penalty doesnt cause every other unit type in the game to route instantly.

You would have to give everyone a nice morale buff(even phalanx units) to make sure that if a unit gets "behind flanked" out of phalanx, they would not route as fast as a unit IN phalanx who was flanked directly from behind...
This would ensure that the phalanx units would be SUPERIOR from the front.. and the method for beating the would be to out maneuver them and get behind them.. or outnumber them from the side to get free hits.

This would allow something like the 300 spartans to more realistically achieve such a feet in game(but im not saying make them THAT strong to kill 10,000 men from the front).

So what you would have to do is:
1. Make phalanx formation give a MUCH bigger melee defense boost, while lowering morale a bit

2. Increase the "behind flanking" morale penalty, then lower the "side flanking" penalty... so that the buggy wrapping around against the phalanx doesnt cause a massive morale penalty ontop of the already lowered morale from being in phalanx.. like i said, just let the penalty from beinde flanked be bcuz they are now outnumbered and will lose anyway. I mean, let their still be a side flank penalty, but not really a substantial one to win a fight with it.. just allow them being outnumbered to take care of that outcome.

3. Raise the morale of all units in the game so make it so non-phalanx units dont route as fast as phalanx units when hit from behind. Also this morale boost would ensure that being flanked in the back wouldnt make units route faster than they CURRENTLY do, bcuz of the behind flank penalty increase...

I think this would be perfect.

Obviously test the out of it... but I think that could be a serious breakthrough for you guys..

[JCB206]

They hold a line very well. But no they are not that effective in this time period. They were replaced by more maneuverable troops. In DEI 1.1 you could use them on the flank of your pike units and they became the ultimate flanking force. Armored, quick, and unstoppable. That was not realistic. We have better balance now and more historical. Just my opinion.

Try Hellenika. It is very hoplite centric and very historical for that time frame. Its a lot of fun.