messy roman recruitment and other things...

**Goffredo85** · February 25, 2017, 08:50 AM

Already posted this in the suggestion thread, but since it got swallowed by the swarm of other posts without an answer i'm trying again here.
During polibyan reforms romans have access to the same aor troops than any one else but they can also build a buiding chain that gives acces to mostly the same exact aor troops, albeit with slightly better stats (the "romanized" ones). After marian reforms the auxilia, which as a more standarized branch came into being only after augustan\imperial reforms, become available. This is not only historically inaccurate, but also gives an early and unfair advantage to any roman player as it gives acces to a lot of very good troops in almost any province avoiding the cultural requirement for factional troops in newly conquered settlement. Most of them are superior to the troops of other factions, especially cavalry, and are even better than their roman marian counterpart as their stats are more in line with imperial time legionaries. So my suggestion would be:
1)remove all the duplicate AOR units if we already have the "romanized" version.
2)during polibyan/marian times have the auxiliary building chains give access to more local "romanized" cavalry units which historically the romans made large use of (germanic heavy cavalry in germania, gallic one in gallia etc). Right now it seems to me that the cavalry compartment is a bit lacking, the only true "heavy" cavalry recruitable in the west portion of the map being the Remi Mareipos limited to 8 units.
3)move all the auxiliary troops to the imperial reform as it should be
4)after marian reform remove certain types of aor and mercenaries troops from italy altogether. There is really no way you should recruit samnite cavalry or etruscan hoplites after marian reforms, it really breaks the immersion!

Finally about hollow square formation. I really dislike this formation and it really breaks immersion for me, it just seems an ugly leftover from napoleon total war. Is there not another option for a defensive formation in the game engine that is more historically accurate for the marian/imperial legionaries?something like a shield wall?
That being said i'm really enjoying 1.2 right now and this mod is the only reason i still bother playing rome2, so i hope that my ideas are not taken as offence by the mod team.

**KAM 2150** · February 25, 2017, 09:01 AM

To be honest, no formation will work better then hollow square as this game has no shield wall. You can only use pike related formation and change the animation but it will also make them unable to engage hoplites and pikes. Vanilla shieldwall will just turn off when you press attack or if unit is attacked, which makes it pointless. We are experimenting with some stuff but so far, no luck. Not to mention making AI use it too...

**Hoplitus** · February 25, 2017, 09:58 AM

This is not only historically inaccurate, but also gives an early and unfair advantage to any roman player as it gives acces to a lot of very good troops in almost any province avoiding the cultural requirement for factional troops in newly conquered settlement

there is no cultural requirement anymore, only the availability of population classes will restrict your recruitment, so this argument is not vaild.

remove all the duplicate AOR units if we already have the "romanized" version

the romanized troops are there for a reason. Rome should have this advantage, thats what makes them special! Also removing AOR feature just for Rome doesn't make any sense, it would give them a serious disadvantage since you need the aux barraks to recruit the romanized version.

There is really no way you should recruit samnite cavalry or etruscan hoplites after marian reforms, it really breaks the immersion!

This is a very personal view! Some people might still want to use them. It's a matter of variety if you ask me. And if it really breaks immersion for you, well then don't recruit them! Nobody forces you to do so.

So all in all I must say I strongly disagree with you in almost every point you made.

**Wolf Priest** · February 25, 2017, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Hoplitus

there is no cultural requirement anymore, only the availability of population classes will restrict your recruitment, so this argument is not vaild.

the romanized troops are there for a reason. Rome should have this advantage, thats what makes them special! Also removing AOR feature just for Rome doesn't make any sense, it would give them a serious disadvantage since you need the aux barraks to recruit the romanized version.

This is a very personal view! Some people might still want to use them. It's a matter of variety if you ask me. And if it really breaks immersion for you, well then don't recruit them! Nobody forces you to do so.

So all in all I must say I strongly disagree with you in almost every point you made.

Variety is more bad thing than good, too much variety ruined many mods for me, and Samnites and Etruscans became fully Romanized and don't exist after reforms. AoR is only feature in DeI I don't like. I agree with you and disagree with OP on rest though..

**Hoplitus** · February 25, 2017, 12:10 PM

I think variety is good, redundancy would be bad though

But I think there is no redundancy here.

How can you not like the AOR system?

It's one of the greatest features in DeI I think and it makes most sense for the time period the game is playing in.

**Wolf Priest** · February 25, 2017, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Hoplitus

I think variety is good, redundancy would be bad though

But I think there is no redundancy here.

How can you not like the AOR system?

It's one of the greatest features in DeI I think and it makes most sense for the time period the game is playing in.

Yes, but I have really low threshold for redundancy, DeI somehow just hit that sweetspot for me. I like about AoR that I can just ignore it and never use it, but I like reading units descriptions, to get some "backstory". When I say AoR I don't include roman auxilia.

**Hoplitus** · February 25, 2017, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Wolf Priest

Yes, but I have really low threshold for redundancy, DeI somehow just hit that sweetspot for me. I like about AoR that I can just ignore it and never use it, but I like reading units descriptions, to get some "backstory". When I say AoR I don't include roman auxilia.

"I have really low threshold for redundancy"

made my day! And you're not asking for a removal, makes you somehow likeable

@Goffredo I would have answered more widely but I guess there isn't much to add to Dresden's post.

**MisterClever** · February 25, 2017, 09:05 PM

Consider this tho.
1. Since Romans have a "romanized" version anyways as an option, then why would you have them recruit the vanilla AOR units of the same type and model when there is no reason to recruit them.
2. The AOR system is fantastic, but yes for Rome in particular some units are redundant and not even historical - after Marian reforms all 'italic allied' units should be removed.

**Wolf Priest** · February 26, 2017, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by MisterClever

Consider this tho.
1. Since Romans have a "romanized" version anyways as an option, then why would you have them recruit the vanilla AOR units of the same type and model when there is no reason to recruit them.
2. The AOR system is fantastic, but yes for Rome in particular some units are redundant and not even historical - after Marian reforms all 'italic allied' units should be removed.

1. Already answered: "the romanized troops are there for a reason. Rome should have this advantage, thats what makes them special! Also removing AOR feature just for Rome doesn't make any sense, it would give them a serious disadvantage since you need the aux barraks to recruit the romanized version."
2. I agree, but I don't think it works that way.

**Goffredo85** · February 25, 2017, 02:21 PM

Hoplitus you're right about the first point, i was used to the old system. But you're not about the others. First of all i invite you to read more carefully what i've wrote or is my english such bad?
I've never said that AOR troops should be removed for rome i just said that there is no point in having the recruitment list cluttered with several identical units, one aor and one romanized. There are several cases of this, take for example the iberi funditores or the leuce epos or liguriae epos etc etc. You now what would be unique? Having the auxiliary building give acces to more elite local units than other factions. This is already the case in some instances but it could be expanded further. Besides, historically speaking, there is nothing unique in the way the romans used foreign units when they needed to. It was a widely common pratice for other power as well. On to the second point: with over 1800 new units you fear that you'll lose variation because you don't have acces to just a bunch of old units after marian reforms? Seriously? This mod is about new gameplay elements as much as it is about more historical authenticity. The team spent years to give us more historical rosters, we even have unit names in original language! We could ask them to add back beasts of war units or gladiators, just for the sake of variation then. Besides from a gameplay perspective we would hardly notice those units not being available anymore. In fact by the time we get to marian reforms our wars would be far from italy and we would have access to better alternatives. Take it as a chance to try new units to replace those that you don't have anymore. Is this not variation? Being forced to try something new? After all tynig positives to negatives has been a trade mark of DEI since the beginning.

**Dresden** · February 25, 2017, 02:30 PM

The Roman auxiliary recruitment provides something pre-Marian for those buildings to use. It draws in AOR troops from surrounding regions, not just that region. So, you can build one in a province and have access to AOR troops from provinces around it, even if you don't own that province. These are improved AOR versions. Its been this way since...forever in this mod. I don't agree with your points about it being useless or pointless. It seems your argument is just that it clutters the recruitment panel, which I agree it does a bit.

And to the argument saying AOR is one of the bad parts of the mod, I don't even know what to say to that. I am fairly certain its not just one of the more popular features but its also one of the most interesting and well implemented parts of the mod that provide an interesting and engaging campaign experience as you expand into new lands.

**Goffredo85** · February 25, 2017, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dresden

And to the argument saying AOR is one of the bad parts of the mod, I don't even know what to say to that. I am fairly certain its not just one of the more popular features but its also one of the most interesting and well implemented parts of the mod that provide an interesting and engaging campaign experience as you expand into new lands.

Not my argument. Never said nor tought that.

**Wolf Priest** · February 25, 2017, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Dresden

And to the argument saying AOR is one of the bad parts of the mod, I don't even know what to say to that. I am fairly certain its not just one of the more popular features but its also one of the most interesting and well implemented parts of the mod that provide an interesting and engaging campaign experience as you expand into new lands.

Don't hate me Dresten, I love you <3. Why you do ALWAYS misunderstand me? I said I don't like AoR troops in my armies, I like reading unit descriptions. I would use them as garrisons if that was possible. I like AI attempting to use it. If I were to consider AoR troops, they are ether add nothing to my army (horse archers in Skythia if you already have horse archers), or make it too flexible (horse archers in Skythia if you don't already have horse archers), are too weak (*insert trash troop name here*) or too strong (apulian extracools). My favorite feature is KAM-s hoplites and unique cities and ports (latter a bit more). I support mod 1017%, but that doesn't mean I have to like AoR and Epirus.

**Kolaris8472** · February 25, 2017, 02:46 PM

Yep, AoR units are one of my favorite parts of the mod. I love creating new Alae of local units and adding them to the Roman war machine.

I tend to stick with the standard, non-Romanized versions myself, reasoning that if they were Romanized they would fight in the Roman fashion - from a Legion Barracks. Yet the Auxillary Barracks is still useful because like Dresden says it pulls in some units that won't appear in the main chains. I don't need them everywhere, but a few throughout my empire are very useful.

**Dresden** · February 25, 2017, 03:57 PM

I didn't say it was.

**Dardo21** · February 26, 2017, 02:44 PM

Tying them to the pre-Marian age would be possible, but that would mean tying them to the reform script, which would mean a heavier script load. Although another possibility for a submod perhaps, would be simply removing them from the 3rd and 4th level barracks, since those are locked to the Marian reform.

**Dresden** · February 26, 2017, 02:51 PM

I had planned on doing that and I forgot, thanks for reminding me. Some units are already that way (anachronistic ones for the later time period). But, I think maybe more should be that way.