Empire Greatswords are really weak and awful?

[Bogdanov89]

I was testing how Greatswords compare to other medium/high tier units on foot.
Custom battles were on normal difficulty, no forest, lords were generic and without any abilities (so they do not interfere with unit combat testing).
Armies were made so that they are equal in money, with the average value being around 5 Greatsword units + Lord (and equal gold value for the enemy army).

The results are below...

Greatswords lost to: Wildwood Rangers, Waywatchers, Deepwood Scouts (swift), Glade Guards (starshard), Black Orcs, Orc Big Uns, Dwarf Hammerers, Dwarf Longbeards (GWeapons), Tree Kin

Greatswords won against: Nothing so far.

I have not tested VC, Chaos and Beastmen because, frankly, after seeing Greatswords lose miserably to every unit i put them against i just gave up.

I ran every match up at least twice just to verify the results.
What is up with Greatswords being this cr*p?

[drillmaster]

Greatswords are ok. But they dont do anything better than halberds. I used to put them in the middle of the line but since the AI throws chariots and trolls on them i replaced them with halberdiers who have charge defence against large.

[Mhaedros]

I wouldn't use them as a frontline unit, rather as something of a hammer to the anvil made out of spearmen and regular swordsmen with shields.

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

Well to be honest, Greatswords aren't that good in the tabletop either. They are only humans so they are quite puny when compared to some of their opponents.
Their saving grace is that they had the stubborn rule which usually meant that you had to kill every one of them since they wouldn't run away or atleast it would be a slim chance of it happening.
They are essentially a anvil unit in the tabletop meant to have back up from knights.
That's how they are played in the tabletop, that's how I play them in the game and it works well.

[Ichon]

Well you stopped just before finding the units they do best against. Seriously though after nerfs Greatswords aren't going to stand on their own against many units but used combined arms with other Empire units they can still work well vs especially Chaos and Vampires. They have higher armor than most units but not quite high enough to make a huge difference vs high-tier units and they have lower melee defense than many similar cost units but their AP is strong and they have anti-infantry which makes them do quite well vs mid-high tier non- high AP enemy units.

Ideal matchups would be Savage Orcs, Orc BigUns, non-great weapon Grave Guard, Wraiths, all non-great weapon Chaos infantry (not monstrous), Bestigors (if can avoid charge).

Dwarfs I am not as sure- Hammerers, Iron Breakers should beat Great Swords but Longbeards it should be fairly close with Great Swords winning if they get charge I think. I haven't played this matchup much since Great Swords were nerfed so maybe Longbeards can beat them as they have higher melee defense in a long battle but I just can't see that being an equal match up very often. Great Swords by stats even after nerf should win that most of the time.

VS Wood Elves the Great Swords are interesting. They lose to most of the archers due to smaller numbers and low speed but vs Wardancers and Tree Kin it shouldn't be clear loss. I think Tree Kin might win most of the time because they have some AP damage, slightly lower armor but lot higher melee defense, base damage, and aren't infantry so the Great Swords anti-infantry bonus doesn't count but Great Swords have more than twice the AP damage and far higher unit numbers so I can't see Tree Kin winning 1 v 1 alot here though with ranged support probably will win most of the time.

Also just to keep in perspective Black Orcs will lose to most same cost in Wood Elves as well due to lower speed, unit counts, and not quite high enough armor to not take heavy losses vs ranged.

[Påsan]

Greatsword used to be the most cost-efficient unit in the game. They ere nerfed and now i think they are in a good spot. They were a crouch the Empire did not need. The empire strenght is bringing great diversity of units to the field. Their infantry was never meant to be the best.

[Chris P. Bacon]

Ya I agree Pasan. Now they just need to do the same to those new Foot Squires for the Bretonnians

[ShockBlast]

Doesn`t the Empire make good of some of the best artillery in game second only to the Dwarves ?

I have only seen the stats when a friend was playing but a mix of Greatswords and Halberdiers are good enough to hold the line against almost everything allowing you to flank with cavalry or make use the diverse artillery.

Also, don`t despair, Middenland will be released as a faction and they will have some heavy infantry coming, more than likely.

I wish they would introduce some replenishment mechanic or allow limited recruitment of some units based, let`s say, on number of provinces that way the Empire can make use of crack infantry without breaking the overall feel of the game because those units would be limited.

[drillmaster]

Makes sense to release province specific units but i dont think is going to happen. In 3 moths TWW will be 1 year old. So my guess is CA will start pushing the new title.

[econ21]

I tend to find Greatswords underwhelming in the early to mid game: despite their high armor, they seem to die almost as quickly as much cheaper swordsmen. I guess it's partly the lack of a shield against missiles. I don't bother with them against other Empire, Norscans or VC.

However, in the late game, against Chaos infantry, state troops just drop like flies and don't do much damage. Greatswords seem able to go toe to toe with most Chaos infantry. I still end a battle with much depleted units, but their AP weapons means they can return the pain.

[Bogdanov89]

In my experience GSwords are very underwhelming, often almost dying to cheaper armor-piercing infantry when both armies are worth the same total amount of gold.

They also lose HARD against any armor-piercing infantry above them in cost (armies same total gold cost).

Either way they just seem to cost too much considering they BARELY win against cheaper and severely lose against more expensive units.
At least reduce cost to 875... right now i just dont ever see a reason to invest money into GSwords.

[Påsan]

Well you got the best arty and cav in the game so your inf being slightly underwelming should not hurt you too much.

And GS are good vs high armor infantry like dwarves and chaos. Better than any other option you have including halbardiers. Vs low armor you might as well use flagerants.

[ShockBlast]

I don`t really understand how you guys are using them ?

Are you just throwing Greatswords against the finest the Dwarves has to offer and you expect them to with without making use of the cavalry and artillery arms of your army ?

The Empire has the biggest flexibility in the game, they are good in all 3 compartments with no obvious weakness .... maybe with the exception of a missing high end infantry unit with shields but the Greatswords have a lot of armour.

Theoretically, unless you are the Dwarves, and with even them, you should want to close the distance and get into melee as soon as possible against an Empire army, not skirmish with their artillery.

[♔atthias♔]

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...to+greatswords
use this mod