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Thread: How can anyone be a conservative?

  1. #1

    Default How can anyone be a conservative?

    I have very strongly held beliefs about justice and equality. That's why I was so appalled, for example, when most of the UK's Conservative Party voted against marriage. That's unforgivable. How can anyone support a party that opposes gay marriage?

    I believe developed countries are societies of extreme inequality. The only political issue I care about is ending as quickly as possible the oppression of certain parts of society by the rest. We decide that people with certain randomly picked traits ought to be treated as second class citizens. Women, working class people, people of colour, gender and sexual minorities. Conservatives seem to the ideology of people who don't understand this. How can anyone be a conservative?

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    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    I have very strongly held beliefs about justice and equality. That's why I was so appalled, for example, when most of the UK's Conservative Party voted against marriage. That's unforgivable. How can anyone support a party that opposes gay marriage?
    Marriage is between a man and woman. Plenty of folk that still feel strongly about this one, it's really not that surprising.


    We decide that people with certain randomly picked traits ought to be treated as second class citizens. Women, working class people, people of colour, gender and sexual minorities. Conservatives seem to the ideology of people who don't understand this. How can anyone be a conservative?
    I dunno about second class citizens. But one can also say the same for incestual relationships (to use as an example), between a daughter and her father, maybe even wanting to get married and start a family. It doesn't not mean that they should be treated like second class citizens due to their randomly picked traits (incest). However I am willing to bet most people would not approve such relationships/marriage, again no big surprise.

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    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Recent sociological studies suggest, that, valid at least for developed countries, the people of these societies, its citizens, "go for" values rather than for wealth self-interest or income (basic needs) security - probably because in most cases, that's merely basicly secured, thus "thoughts" can go around other "world items". Such as worldviews aka also "values".

    The human's mind and behaviour are formed by their socialisation, thus certain conservative traits are imprinted during this phase. And probably, with certain circumstances together, firmly built. Thus progressive thinking is not possible, merely out of question. The result is the reactionary mind.

    And else, for the past times, fe. middleage and forth, the people have been very god-fearing and parallel of course uneducated (aka no school, couldn't read/learn anything above their "godgiven roles"). The "worldview" at these times was a firm view, given by purely family/clan/village traditions and some doctrines from the church and non-churchal authorities.
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    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    I have very strongly held beliefs about justice and equality. That's why I was so appalled, for example, when most of the UK's Conservative Party voted against marriage. That's unforgivable. How can anyone support a party that opposes gay marriage?

    I believe developed countries are societies of extreme inequality. The only political issue I care about is ending as quickly as possible the oppression of certain parts of society by the rest. We decide that people with certain randomly picked traits ought to be treated as second class citizens. Women, working class people, people of colour, gender and sexual minorities. Conservatives seem to the ideology of people who don't understand this. How can anyone be a conservative?
    Do conservatives think that women, working class people and people of colour should be treated as second class citizens? Certainly not mainstream European conservatives. There are plenty of female, working class, minority ethnic conservatives after all. I find it difficult to see how liberals refuse to acknowledge the problems of decay of traditional values, excessive immigration, and toxic socioeconomic holes that people fall into. I'm a centrist rather than a conservative mind you so I do think that many conservatives are just plain selfish and simply don't care about people worse off than themselves, or believe that such people are in that position of laziness or self-indulgence.

    I also don't see the issue with gay marriage. What I say to those who are against it is, if you don't like gay marriage then don't get married to someone of the same gender! Who cares if two people want to express their love for each other? If you believe it's against your religion then let God be the judge, it doesn't affect you in any way so either preach the Bible to save their souls or leave them be, don't make it a political issue. I have more respect for the '[British slang for cigarettes] burn in Hell' types than ostensibly moderate religious people who just 'don't like marriage being devalued' (the same people who are probably cheating on their spouses and regularly break several of the Ten Commandments).
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

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    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    I have very strongly held beliefs about justice and equality. That's why I was so appalled, for example, when most of the UK's Conservative Party voted against marriage. That's unforgivable. How can anyone support a party that opposes gay marriage?

    I believe developed countries are societies of extreme inequality. The only political issue I care about is ending as quickly as possible the oppression of certain parts of society by the rest. We decide that people with certain randomly picked traits ought to be treated as second class citizens. Women, working class people, people of colour, gender and sexual minorities. Conservatives seem to the ideology of people who don't understand this. How can anyone be a conservative?
    Conservatives look at the evidence and don't think there are different classes of citizens. Women are better off then men. The working classes want to work, they don't want hand outs. People of color are among the most successful members of our society. Gender and sexual minorities have the same rights as everyone else.

    A gay man has the same right to marry a lesbian woman as a straight man has to marry a straight woman. A trans man has the same right to marry a trans woman as a cis woman has to marry a cis man.

    Including same sex couples in marriage is not something I object to, or defend.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; February 21, 2017 at 06:59 PM.
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    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
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    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Conservatives look at the evidence and don't think there are different classes of citizens. Women are better off then men. The working classes want to work, they don't want hand outs. People of color are among the most successful members of our society. Gender and sexual minorities have the same rights as everyone else.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Conservatives look at the evidence, ignore it, and then spout ridiculous and patently absurd nonsense. At least, that applies to those who actually believe any of those things, which I don't think is even half of conservatives in the US let alone Europe.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  7. #7

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    I also don't see the issue with gay marriage. What I say to those who are against it is, if you don't like gay marriage then don't get married to someone of the same gender! Who cares if two people want to express their love for each other? If you believe it's against your religion then let God be the judge, it doesn't affect you in any way so either preach the Bible to save their souls or leave them be, don't make it a political issue. I have more respect for the '[British slang for cigarettes] burn in Hell' types than ostensibly moderate religious people who just 'don't like marriage being devalued' (the same people who are probably cheating on their spouses and regularly break several of the Ten Commandments).
    Gay marriage is a bit of a misnomer. The actual issue is government recognition of gay marriages and awarding them "legitimacy", as well as some economic benefits. I highly doubt many people want to criminalize private gay relationships that call themselves marriages.

    The, "if you don't like gay marriage don't get one" argument doesn't work either. You could easily call for repealing all business regulations with the same logic. "If you dislike jobs that pay $2/hour, don't get one." Or how about ownership of weapons; "If you don't like nuclear weapons don't get one." It's a logically inconsistent argument.

    Personally I see no reason why the government should recognize any marriage, so I certainly oppose government recognition of gay, hetero or other types of marriage.

  8. #8

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    I have very strongly held beliefs about justice and equality. That's why I was so appalled, for example, when most of the UK's Conservative Party voted against marriage. That's unforgivable. How can anyone support a party that opposes gay marriage?
    Because they don't care about that particular issue. I also don't care actually, and if the American Republicans aligned with me on all other areas, I would be a Republican.

    I believe developed countries are societies of extreme inequality. The only political issue I care about is ending as quickly as possible the oppression of certain parts of society by the rest. We decide that people with certain randomly picked traits ought to be treated as second class citizens. Women, working class people, people of colour, gender and sexual minorities. Conservatives seem to the ideology of people who don't understand this. How can anyone be a conservative?
    Your title is misleading. That's not all there is to being a Conservative.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    I have very strongly held beliefs about justice and equality.
    You believe in disenfranching Northern Irish people based on their religion, you have no understanding of what the words equality and justice mean, Enros.

    That's why I was so appalled, for example, when most of the UK's Conservative Party voted against marriage. That's unforgivable. How can anyone support a party that opposes gay marriage?
    I dunno mate that's sort of how democracy works. You're allowed to be against gay marriage and if it's that important to you, vote accordingly. I wouldn't not vote Conservative just because a slim majority of voting Tory MPs (I think you are wrong to say most, because you have not considered abstentions) voted against it, especially since a Conservative Government supported that bill.



    I believe developed countries are societies of extreme inequality. The only political issue I care about is ending as quickly as possible the oppression of certain parts of society by the rest. We decide that people with certain randomly picked traits ought to be treated as second class citizens. Women, working class people, people of colour, gender and sexual minorities. Conservatives seem to the ideology of people who don't understand this. How can anyone be a conservative?
    Mostly because parties aren't really single issue platforms mate.

  10. #10

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    You believe in disenfranching Northern Irish people based on their religion, you have no understanding of what the words equality and justice mean, Enros.
    The Ireland-wide vote on reunification wouldn't disenfranchise anyone. Everyone on both sides of the border would get a vote. The split in 1922 was undemocratic gerrymandering, after all. The idea that it might be unification against the will of NI was because NI might vote against it while an overall majority might vote for unification. But that's democracy. Like Scotland and brexit for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Mostly because parties aren't really single issue platforms mate.
    I didn't name a single issue. I referred collectively to every the majority of domestic problems UK faces today. That tiers of citizenship exist based on one's gender, skin colour etc is disgusting and any candidate who fails to denounce it should not be elected. The conservatives fail to denounce it, and that is unforgivable. How are you accountable to the victims of our society if you vote for them? What are you doing for the victims?

  11. #11

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    I believe developed countries are societies of extreme inequality.
    And un-developed countries? Do they have less inequality? If you think so, what are your sources?


    We decide that people with certain randomly picked traits ought to be treated as second class citizens.
    Who's "we"?


    Women, working class people, people of colour, gender and sexual minorities.
    Source?


    How can anyone be a conservative?
    It's called growing up.

  12. #12
    Stario's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post

    I also don't see the issue with gay marriage. What I say to those who are against it is, if you don't like gay marriage then don't get married to someone of the same gender! Who cares if two people want to express their love for each other? If you believe it's against your religion then let God be the judge, it doesn't affect you in any way so either preach the Bible to save their souls or leave them be, don't make it a political issue. I have more respect for the '[British slang for cigarettes] burn in Hell' types than ostensibly moderate religious people who just 'don't like marriage being devalued' (the same people who are probably cheating on their spouses and regularly break several of the Ten Commandments).
    I guess that depends on how you feel about the family unit, and ones own community. There are those who turn the other cheek and then there are those who don't.

  13. #13

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    And un-developed countries? Do they have less inequality? If you think so, what are your sources?
    They usually have even less equality than developed countries.
    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Who's "we"?
    Our collective actions as a society.
    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Source?
    I will use the UK as an example, but the same problems apply to other developed countries:

    Sexism: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10386937.html http://www.parliament.uk/business/co...e-check-forum/

    Racism: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36964916

    Homophobia: http://lgbt.foundation/About-us/medi...s-and-figures/

    But surely you are already familiar with this, right?

  14. #14

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    You know Enros, this is exactly the kind of rhetoric that has the Forum accuse my "side" of political correctness. You are not questioning Conservative values, you are attacking them.

  15. #15

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    I have very strongly held beliefs about justice and equality. That's why I was so appalled, for example, when most of the UK's Conservative Party voted against marriage. That's unforgivable. How can anyone support a party that opposes gay marriage?
    They have a different system of values.
    I consider myself a conservative, even somewhat reactionary, but gay marriage is a non-issue for me.
    I believe developed countries are societies of extreme inequality. The only political issue I care about is ending as quickly as possible the oppression of certain parts of society by the rest. We decide that people with certain randomly picked traits ought to be treated as second class citizens. Women, working class people, people of colour, gender and sexual minorities.
    Not really. Most Western countries don't have policies that discriminate anyone by race, sexual orientation or gender.
    Conservatives seem to the ideology of people who don't understand this. How can anyone be a conservative?
    Conservatives is a blanket term for dozens of different ideologies. The only problem are the so-called "neo-conservatives", mainly because they use general conservative sentiment to advance corporate globalist agenda.

  16. #16

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    They have a different system of values.I consider myself a conservative, even somewhat reactionary, but gay marriage is a non-issue for me.
    That is good to hear, I like people like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Not really. Most Western countries don't have policies that discriminate anyone by race, sexual orientation or gender.
    No they don't. Those countries even have laws to prosecute businesses who discriminate against employees and customers. But they are still totally full of discrimination. Look at the articles I linked. Here's an article that says over half of women have experienced sexism in the workplace: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...k-9029535.html

    This means that the victims of discrimination are reduced to poverty and death through no fault of their own. It needs to be abolished as soon as possible.

  17. #17

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    The Ireland-wide vote on reunification wouldn't disenfranchise anyone.
    Won't do this in this thread. But you neither understand nor desire justice and equality.

    I didn't name a single issue.
    Is this thread about gay marriage or not?

  18. #18

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Is this thread about gay marriage or not?
    That is just a single examples. As a rule, the conservative-leaning parties seem to care less and have more members who actual endorse all forms of the discrimination I listed above.

  19. #19

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    That is good to hear, I like people like that.No they don't. Those countries even have laws to prosecute businesses who discriminate against employees and customers. But they are still totally full of discrimination. Look at the articles I linked. Here's an article that says over half of women have experienced sexism in the workplace: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...k-9029535.html
    This means that the victims of discrimination are reduced to poverty and death through no fault of their own. It needs to be abolished as soon as possible.
    That sounds similar to the whole wage gap thing.
    Just because you didn't get a promotion doesn't mean you are being discriminated against.
    Just because you are a minority, doesn't mean anybody owes you anything.
    People who complain about inequality are just blaming society for their own failures, which is the result of their own laziness.

  20. #20

    Default Re: How can anyone be a conservative?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    That is just a single examples. As a rule, the conservative-leaning parties seem to care less and have more members who actual endorse all forms of the discrimination I listed above.
    Yeah. And? What are we discussing?

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