Medieval Kingdoms Total War : The Khwarazmian Empire and the Armies of Iran

[zsimmortal]

Tawashi means eunuch in fact.


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As per David Ayalon, Mamluk historian, it was for free-born 'professional' soldiers (i.e. non-Mamluks/Ghulams). They received Iqtas and had comparable training to Mamluk Fursan, only during the Mamluk period (so, after the Ayyubid period, especially from the works of ibn Khaldun) did it mean eunuch.

[nnnm]

No, the troops in a "Tulb" a unit as it known in Ayyubids terms were free born but their commander was a Tawashi. That why they called Tawashiyyah


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[zsimmortal]

No, the troops in a "Tulb" a unit as it known in Ayyubids terms were free born but their commander was a Tawashi. That why they called Tawashiyyah


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I don't know, take it up with the guy that wrote the books on the Mamluks. It's quite possible that's also what was referred to, it just sounds a lot broader than simply unit commanders. Regardless, it's a term I will have to replace.

[zsimmortal]

Finished uploading all the tier 1 stuff. Definitely open for suggestions on the Kurdish-oriented stuff as these are the best names I can come up with with some research into the regional history, along with some further research in Zangid and Ayyubid Kurdish troops.

[Danishmend]

Great work, it is not easy to create Salgurid, Hazaraspid etc rosters as we have little-to-no information about their military apart from some assumptions.

The only thing that bothers me about muslim factions is that all of them have same "Eastern skin" from vanilla game. From Andalusia to Kharezm they have same faces, I know you don't have many options since there are a few skin templates from vanilla game you can use so I think the best way to overcome this is to add some Asiatic/Hunnic faces from Vanilla to the Turkic units (1/3 of the unit for example), it would make them more "Central Asian" looking, currently they look indistinguishable from Iranian and Arab units.

As for their beards, Ibn Fadlan (10th century Arab traveler) clearly mentioned that Oghuz tribesmen shaved their beards and had moustaches, only elders grew beards.

[zsimmortal]

Great work, it is not easy to create Salgurid, Hazaraspid etc rosters as we have little-to-no information about their military apart from some assumptions.

The only thing that bothers me about muslim factions is that all of them have same "Eastern skin" from vanilla game. From Andalusia to Kharezm they have same faces, I know you don't have many options since there are a few skin templates from vanilla game you can use so I think the best way to overcome this is to add some Asiatic/Hunnic faces from Vanilla to the Turkic units (1/3 of the unit for example), it would make them more "Central Asian" looking, currently they look indistinguishable from Iranian and Arab units.

As for their beards, Ibn Fadlan (10th century Arab traveler) clearly mentioned that Oghuz tribesmen shaved their beards and had moustaches, only elders grew beards.

Sources suggest turkish inhabitants of Khwarazm (and likely tribes that were settled in Iran) were indistinguishable from native Iranians for the most part. The Arabic factions get the charlemagne arab skins, so its possible to make greater use of those for non-ghulam or mamluk troops. I don't see why I wouldn't use the locally accurate skins. Keep in mind that Central Asia had a demographic shift with the Mongol invasions.

Interesting about the mustaches. I'll look into more miniatures but I'm sure I saw beards in the Seljuk stuff. It might just be once converted to Islam and persianized though.

[Danishmend]

Sources suggest turkish inhabitants of Khwarazm (and likely tribes that were settled in Iran) were indistinguishable from native Iranians for the most part. The Arabic factions get the charlemagne arab skins, so its possible to make greater use of those for non-ghulam or mamluk troops. I don't see why I wouldn't use the locally accurate skins. Keep in mind that Central Asia had a demographic shift with the Mongol invasions

I aware of the demographic shift following the Mongol Invasion, Kazakhs and Uzbeks are a mix of Turkic and Mongol tribes for instance. But unlike Kazakhs and Uzbeks, Turkmens have no Mongolian clan among them and they look neither Mongolian nor Iranian, they look Eurasian if you ask me:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Interesting about the mustaches. I'll look into more miniatures but I'm sure I saw beards in the Seljuk stuff. It might just be once converted to Islam and persianized though.

They probably started growing beards after converting to Islam.

From Ibn Fadlan;

About Oghuz:
"When we had crossed that mountain we came to a tribe of Turks called Oghuz. They were nomads, who live in felt tents and come and go ..........
.... All Turks shave their beards, except for moustaches. Sometimes I saw a decrepit old man who plucked his beard and left a little bit of it under his chin, and he wore a fur coat. If a man sees him from afar he would not doubt that is a goat."


About Pechenegs:
"At last we reached the Pechenegs. They were encamped at the edge of a body of water resembling a sea, for it was not flowing. They had a dark brown complexion, their beards were shaven and they were poor compared to the Oghuz. In fact, among the Oghuz, I have seen people who possess 10.000 horses and 100.000 head of sheep....."

[zsimmortal]

I aware of the demographic shift following the Mongol Invasion, Kazakhs and Uzbeks are a mix of Turkic and Mongol tribes for instance. But unlike Kazakhs and Uzbeks, Turkmens have no Mongolian clan among them and they look neither Mongolian nor Iranian, they look Eurasian if you ask me:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They probably started growing beards after converting to Islam.

From Ibn Fadlan;

About Oghuz:
"When we had crossed that mountain we came to a tribe of Turks called Oghuz. They were nomads, who live in felt tents and come and go ..........
.... All Turks shave their beards, except for moustaches. Sometimes I saw a decrepit old man who plucked his beard and left a little bit of it under his chin, and he wore a fur coat. If a man sees him from afar he would not doubt that is a goat."


About Pechenegs:
"At last we reached the Pechenegs. They were encamped at the edge of a body of water resembling a sea, for it was not flowing. They had a dark brown complexion, their beards were shaven and they were poor compared to the Oghuz. In fact, among the Oghuz, I have seen people who possess 10.000 horses and 100.000 head of sheep....."

Honestly, posting modern pictures of an area that was under Mongol control for a long time is not particularly convincing to me. Let alone for adding faces that are purely Altaic. Like I've mentioned before, I've done some thorough research on Khwarazm and (northern) Khorasan, what is described is a profound mixing of both Turkish and Iranian demographics by the 13th century (actually before that, but that's our mod's starting point), to the point of not being able to tell one apart.

As for beards, nothing that is contemporary really suggests that the Turkish groups only had mustaches (and even then, out of the 80% chance of having a beard, the unit will then have 67% of a chance to have a mustache). Here's some Seljuk art that does show beards :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I really don't see anything that would push me to change what there is right now. If you have some more contemporary stuff, whether it's written or art, I'll definitely reconsider.

[Knight2708]

Just beautiful! People who say video games aren't art definitely haven't seen this mod.

My only request would be to add a brief description to the units. This will probably be quite the task due to the huge number of units in this single preview, but it would be really cool to learn a bit more about these units and what sets them apart from another

[zsimmortal]

Just beautiful! People who say video games aren't art definitely haven't seen this mod.

My only request would be to add a brief description to the units. This will probably be quite the task due to the huge number of units in this single preview, but it would be really cool to learn a bit more about these units and what sets them apart from another

I actually intended to do that originally but I was too tired on Sunday. I'll see what I can do about it later today.

[bigdaddy1204]

Thank you zsimmortal, these screens are very exciting!

For me the armies of Iran are the heart of this game. I can't wait to play these amazing and colourful units. Great job - well done and thanks for sharing!

Dast-e shoma dard nakoneh my friend!

[OutsiderKK]

The beards became popular among Turks after they started to be educated in madrasa schools(mostly). Oghuz tribes at this time had nothing(at least as long as they were nomads) to do with madrasa. About skin; I agree with Danishmend.

[Dontfearme22]

Just a thought, what if "shave their beards" was meant to imply that they groomed or trimmed their beards while they let their mustaches grow freely? In a lot of those Seljuk pieces they definitely look like very closely maintain chinstrap and goatee-style beards with long mustaches, so that might make sense.

[Visarion]

Nice! A lottle more diversity for Faris Archers trousers and Naffatun tunics wouldn t hurt

[Visarion]

Yeah the color

[zsimmortal]

So in an effort to further streamline Iran heading into Tier 2, I've decided to dismiss the Fars Spearmen and Kurdish Spearmen, being both replaced by a more historically appropriate and generalized 'Siege Infantry' unit to serve as a basic spear unit.

Speaking of Tier 2, I've spoken to a few people about this and while I have some content prepared and some sources saved up, I'd very much appreciate anyone with any quality information, whether miniatures, modern representations or text regarding 14th century (or even 15th for later use) military equipment of non-Mongol soldiers from Iran. This could include, but not be limited to, military personnel from the Ilkhanate or such dynasties like the Kartids, Sarbadars, Muzzafarids, Mihrabanids and Jalayirids. Early Qara Qoyunlu stuff would also be great.

[Sarcasm_pt]

Great work by all parties guys. Nice to see people bringing to the table lots of great sources, particularly written ones, and being able to discuss them and learn from each other.

Hell of a good job, and the units are looking great.

[Danishmend]

Speaking of Tier 2, I've spoken to a few people about this and while I have some content prepared and some sources saved up, I'd very much appreciate anyone with any quality information, whether miniatures, modern representations or text regarding 14th century (or even 15th for later use) military equipment of non-Mongol soldiers from Iran. This could include, but not be limited to, military personnel from the Ilkhanate or such dynasties like the Kartids, Sarbadars, Muzzafarids, Mihrabanids and Jalayirids. Early Qara Qoyunlu stuff would also be great.

I would recommend "The Age of Tamerlane" from Osprey's Men-at-Arms series. There you can find Jalayirid, Qara Qoyunlu, Aq Qoyunlu stuff (14th and 15th centuries). The equipments of Turkomans of East Anatolia and Iran were similar to that of Ottomans of West Anatolia.

Also, we have Mehmed Siyah Kalem's drawings (14th or 15th century - Turkomans of East Anatolia or Iran) http://www.warfare.meximas.com/Turk/Turkmen-Haz2153.htm

and http://www.warfare.meximas.com/Turk/Turkmen-Haz2152.htm

[kultegin]

Units look awesome. Can you give me the sources where it says medieval turks looks like arab? i have never seen a central asian turkics (especially qangli or qipchaq) that look like arab lol. Current Qipchaqs are interesting group. They have fair golden skin and blondish hair with asian face. I guess they did mix with slavics when they used to live up north in medieval times. No offense but turkic units do not look turkic at all. You can go to central asia and wont find any arab looking turkic.

Someone mentioned that turkmens are not mixed with mongols unlike UZ and KZ. Even turkmens do not look like arab or middle eastern.

[zsimmortal]

Units look awesome. Can you give me the sources where it says medieval turks looks like arab? i have never seen a central asian turkics (especially qangli or qipchaq) that look like arab lol. Current Qipchaqs are interesting group. They have fair golden skin and blondish hair with asian face. I guess they did mix with slavics when they used to live up north in medieval times. No offense but turkic units do not look turkic at all. You can go to central asia and wont find any arab looking turkic.

Someone mentioned that turkmens are not mixed with mongols unlike UZ and KZ. Even turkmens do not look like arab or middle eastern.

Well they shouldn't look Arab to begin with since the skins used are the Iranian ones. Regardless of the argument that they shouldn't look like Iranians, they sure are hell don't look like the Mongolian Hunnic skins.

I'd have to go through it again, but from my recollection, it's from the Cambridge History of Iran. Since the part I used (number 5) is over 700 pages, I'd have to skim through it to find the passages.