Use of Hoplite/Hellenic Armies?

[corsair831]

Hello, I've been playing as Rome on the latest version, due to the new manpower system I can't recruit endless Principe/Hastati as I used to (which is good), so I'm having to rely a lot more on the native Greek Hoplite units.

Regarding this, I have some questions about how Hoplite are supposed to be used in this version, and Hellenic Greek armies in general. In past versions of DeI Hoplite were balanced to be good charging units, who then did no damage and just tanked large amounts of incoming damage. In the current version however, I can't seem to find their main use; when I put them in regular mode (no formation) they all put their spears away and seem to act as relatively mediocre swordsmen, however when I put them in the Hoplite Phalanx formation they seem to tank a decent amount of damage but get literally sweet FA in kills; often they'll actually lose more men than they kill in a head on clash.

Further on this point, I'm a little confused about where your damage comes from with the new Hellenic armies; with Rome it's heavy Infantry, with Barbarians it's mass light inf/ranged/cavalry, with the Successor States it's Phalanx hammer and Anvil, etc. However for the Hellenic armies in particular, the cavalry seems relatively weak compared to their Macedonian cousins, the Hoplite seem to do absolutely no damage whilst still being significantly more expensive than other infantry and just somewhat inferior to Phalangitai, their ranged units seem very meh, and their light infantry are all either mediocre swordsmen or light Hoplite which suffer from the same damage problem as regular Hoplite (not to mention low numbers).

Right, that's the essay over, would someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong with them, and how I should be trying to play them , cheers!

[Maetharin]

They now work similar to Phalangitai, for defensive fighting, only attack once, for offensive fighting, you have to press attack more.
The more they press forward, the more of the back ranks start attacking.

[GMFH]

If you are using hoplites they should be an anvil type unit. I have found them to work best as a tank where you put them in a line in phalanx and don't issue attack orders as it can do weird things to their formation. Then use your heavy swords or lighter spears to hold your edges. The strong units for many non successor Hellenic factions are your peltasts. These work well to flank and use as your hammer after the enemy cav and ranged has been neutralized by your flank spears and cavalry. The peltasts are also good for dealing with cav if you have a spear or cav unit that can hold them. You just have to micro your javelins. There is a false center strategy in the guides subforum that can better explain how to win without elite swords or pikes.

[corsair831]

They now work similar to Phalangitai, for defensive fighting, only attack once, for offensive fighting, you have to press attack more.
The more they press forward, the more of the back ranks start attacking.

Thanks, I'll give that a try, see how it works out

If you are using hoplites they should be an anvil type unit. I have found them to work best as a tank where you put them in a line in phalanx and don't issue attack orders as it can do weird things to their formation. Then use your heavy swords or lighter spears to hold your edges. The strong units for many non successor Hellenic factions are your peltasts. These work well to flank and use as your hammer after the enemy cav and ranged has been neutralized by your flank spears and cavalry. The peltasts are also good for dealing with cav if you have a spear or cav unit that can hold them. You just have to micro your javelins. There is a false center strategy in the guides subforum that can better explain how to win without elite swords or pikes.

Hmm, interesting, but I'm playing against other players not AI so the more basic hammer and anvil tactics only work if the other player has a army/makes a cock up.

Regarding the hold the line strategy, I don't know if that really addresses the issue of no damage coming from the unit mixture; the light spear units really don't justify their cost in that matter, and regarding the Peltasts, whilst armoured javelinmen are absolutely brilliant they really don't justify their own cost either (basic armoured peltasts for 88 men are what, 150 or so upkeep, vs Hastati at ~~180 and 100 men).

Greek javelin cavalry is good, but beyond that basic Hippeis etc are just not very good at all, so I wouldn't count on winning many cavalry fights

[Garbad]

If you are using hoplites they should be an anvil type unit. I have found them to work best as a tank where you put them in a line in phalanx and don't issue attack orders as it can do weird things to their formation. Then use your heavy swords or lighter spears to hold your edges. The strong units for many non successor Hellenic factions are your peltasts. These work well to flank and use as your hammer after the enemy cav and ranged has been neutralized by your flank spears and cavalry. The peltasts are also good for dealing with cav if you have a spear or cav unit that can hold them. You just have to micro your javelins. There is a false center strategy in the guides subforum that can better explain how to win without elite swords or pikes.

/cries tears of gratitude

But for real tho, Hoplites are just a standard defensive infantry. Fix a unit, then flank them using whatever tools you have available. Cav, pelts, slingers, sword infantry, seriously anything works. Just have a plan and you can do it.

[corsair831]

Okay, did some tests as Sparta, if you keep the main Hoplite line 3 men deep in one long line, phalanx formation on, and stationary (don't charge, just using expert charge defence to reflect the other guy's damage back), and use light Hoplites on the flanks it can be very cost effective

Extremely weak to flanking, but from the front pretty formidable, if you do what Maetharin said and press attack they do move into range it's quite good actually,

Good job DeI team, liking this balance a lot better than previous iterations, seems more realistic

[KAM 2150]

I wanted to represent differences in martial ways of various cultures, both on a rise and decline with 1.2 version. Hoplites were getting a bit less usefull long before DeI campaign started (obviously not obsolete since they were still heavy infantry but their tactics were) and same goes for all typical Greek city states of those times. That is why these factions get access to newer units that might not have much in common with hoplite warfare because it would mean there is no point in going for example to more Thorakitai heavy army. With population system, getting access to units that are slightly weaker (Thureophoroi) but still good and easier to field in large numbers, gives you purpose to those units. Sparta after overhaul is great example, you have a lot of great units from start but they take from top population class and you need to make hard choices while after reforms you get a bit more people to use.

Also the "feel" of Greek armies is different compared to Diadochi armies as your hoplites will lose 1v1 against pikes and their cavalry with also beat yours but...that is how it went (if we talk about 1v1 scenario). It only makes it more interesting, since you won't play the same way with them as you need to adapt other tactics. Ok, so your cavalry is medicore or you do not have access to solid cavalry at all? Then use Ekdromoi hoplites to flank your enemies and put good use to their speed and high charge value. Again, early Sparta is great example as your crappy cavalry takes from 1st pop class but you also have access to Spartan Youths who can perform the same task or even be better at it. Then again, if enemy will have ranged cav or very light ranged units, those crappy Spartan horsemen might be a lot more useful than Spartan Youths.


As for hoplite mechanics, if you put them on defence, they will be great at being charged since they might kill more enemies than lose their own during it. Although, if you leave them in defence, they won't kill that much but will also take casualties much slower than most other units, but you need to check from time to time if their formation is not breaking under enemy pressure. If you want to press on against your enemy or you are afraid that their formation is losing cohesion, then press attack as they will push forward and reform ranks while also being a lot more agressive on attack (at the cost of higher chance of casualties). The most difficult thing is to feel the right moment since pressing forward too soon or against too strong enemies (if their is big quality gap) might do you no good as you will lose a lot of men but used at the right time will break enemies easily.

[corsair831]

I wanted to represent differences in martial ways of various cultures, both on a rise and decline with 1.2 version. Hoplites were getting a bit less usefull long before DeI campaign started (obviously not obsolete since they were still heavy infantry but their tactics were) and same goes for all typical Greek city states of those times. That is why these factions get access to newer units that might not have much in common with hoplite warfare because it would mean there is no point in going for example to more Thorakitai heavy army. With population system, getting access to units that are slightly weaker (Thureophoroi) but still good and easier to field in large numbers, gives you purpose to those units. Sparta after overhaul is great example, you have a lot of great units from start but they take from top population class and you need to make hard choices while after reforms you get a bit more people to use.

Also the "feel" of Greek armies is different compared to Diadochi armies as your hoplites will lose 1v1 against pikes and their cavalry with also beat yours but...that is how it went (if we talk about 1v1 scenario). It only makes it more interesting, since you won't play the same way with them as you need to adapt other tactics. Ok, so your cavalry is medicore or you do not have access to solid cavalry at all? Then use Ekdromoi hoplites to flank your enemies and put good use to their speed and high charge value. Again, early Sparta is great example as your crappy cavalry takes from 1st pop class but you also have access to Spartan Youths who can perform the same task or even be better at it. Then again, if enemy will have ranged cav or very light ranged units, those crappy Spartan horsemen might be a lot more useful than Spartan Youths.


As for hoplite mechanics, if you put them on defence, they will be great at being charged since they might kill more enemies than lose their own during it. Although, if you leave them in defence, they won't kill that much but will also take casualties much slower than most other units, but you need to check from time to time if their formation is not breaking under enemy pressure. If you want to press on against your enemy or you are afraid that their formation is losing cohesion, then press attack as they will push forward and reform ranks while also being a lot more agressive on attack (at the cost of higher chance of casualties). The most difficult thing is to feel the right moment since pressing forward too soon or against too strong enemies (if their is big quality gap) might do you no good as you will lose a lot of men but used at the right time will break enemies easily.

Thanks for the extremely detailed answer! Some very interesting points there. I love the way the realism re e.g. Sparta comes into play; IRL they couldn’t field large armies of Hoplite due to population issues, and that’s now excellently represented in DeI, brilliantly done.

I tried what you said about the light Hoplite, and they definitely seem to be significantly more useful than in previous versions; I can see using these as my main damage dealer considering the Spartan Youths are ~~60% the cost of a Hastati(early), and can almost hold their own, which is pretty nice.

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Regarding what some of the other players have been saying, I’m playing against quite experienced opponents not AI, so the typical anti-AI tactics do not cut the mustard unfortunately .

I tried what you guys said; heavy Hoplite holding the centre line and light infantry on the flanks with some supporting skirmisher cavalry, however my opponent countered this very easily as various barbarian factions by taking advantage of the close formation and low numbers of Hoplite by simply using cheap armoured barbarian spearmen to tie down 2 units at a time; as the Hoplite whilst they do win simply don’t kill fast enough (for half the cost per unit), meaning that your opponent can throw enormous resources at your flanks.

My opponent then took to sending his superior barbarian basic swordsmen, skirmishers and cavalry around my flank and soundly beat me in almost every battle. The only way I'm having any real success at all is using the Spartan god-generals with their 150 men per unit out of formation to kill anything in their path (when you upgrade them with general's abilities they're just amazing).

Not that I am complaining; the idea of Hoplite as being obsolete units in this time period is really quite an interesting dynamic, and I’m thoroughly enjoying it.

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(As a side note, I do actually have a plan to try a Roman checkerboard style system with the Hoplite, using heavy Hoplite in formation in the first rank of the checkerboard with wide spacing and ~5-6 men deep per unitso they're practically a square, and using the new light infantry as the second and third ranks to charge through the breach repeatedly. Will see how it goes . )

[KYREAPER]

Thanks for the extremely detailed answer! Some very interesting points there. I love the way the realism re e.g. Sparta comes into play; IRL they couldn’t field large armies of Hoplite due to population issues, and that’s now excellently represented in DeI, brilliantly done.

I tried what you said about the light Hoplite, and they definitely seem to be significantly more useful than in previous versions; I can see using these as my main damage dealer considering the Spartan Youths are ~~60% the cost of a Hastati(early), and can almost hold their own, which is pretty nice.

------------------------------------------

Regarding what some of the other players have been saying, I’m playing against quite experienced opponents not AI, so the typical anti-AI tactics do not cut the mustard unfortunately .

I tried what you guys said; heavy Hoplite holding the center line and light infantry on the flanks with some supporting skirmisher cavalry, however my opponent countered this very easily as various barbarian factions by taking advantage of the close formation and low numbers of Hoplite by simply using cheap armoured barbarian spearmen to tie down 2 units at a time; as the Hoplite whilst they do win simply don’t kill fast enough (for half the cost per unit), meaning that your opponent can throw enormous resources at your flanks.

My opponent then took to sending his superior barbarian basic swordsmen, skirmishers and cavalry around my flank and soundly beat me in almost every battle. The only way I'm having any real success at all is using the Spartan god-generals with their 150 men per unit out of formation to kill anything in their path (when you upgrade them with general's abilities they're just amazing).

Not that I am complaining; the idea of Hoplite as being obsolete units in this time period is really quite an interesting dynamic, and I’m thoroughly enjoying it.

You're not understanding the point of hoplites.

You say "The idea of hoplite as being obsolete units in this time period.." is completely wrong.

Hoplites are a DEFENSIVE unit. Where they shine is having a line of 4-5 of them in phalanx.. versus like 10 units smashing into the front of them. The hoplites wont win obviously, but they will last longer than any other unit in the game. This frees up (you guessed it) 4-5 of YOUR units to smash them in the flanks. If you are outnumbered by 3-4... well now youve only got 1-2 units free, but u can still flank them hard at one particular point.

I play as Sparta exclusively... and the first "spartan hoplites" you get are the ones before they bring the Agoge back. The REFORMED ones kick all kinds of ass.

But they use isnt to kill their opponent, but to hold out longer than any other unit. If you compare a Spartan hoplite unit against a high level barbarian unit going 4v10, the spartans are gonna last way longer. Thats their use. They are obsolete, but they are a shield

[corsair831]

You're not understanding the point of hoplites.

You say "The idea of hoplite as being obsolete units in this time period.." is completely wrong.

Hoplites are a DEFENSIVE unit. Where they shine is having a line of 4-5 of them in phalanx.. versus like 10 units smashing into the front of them. The hoplites wont win obviously, but they will last longer than any other unit in the game. This frees up (you guessed it) 4-5 of YOUR units to smash them in the flanks. If you are outnumbered by 3-4... well now youve only got 1-2 units free, but u can still flank them hard at one particular point.

I play as Sparta exclusively... and the first "spartan hoplites" you get are the ones before they bring the Agoge back. The REFORMED ones kick all kinds of ass.

But they use isnt to kill their opponent, but to hold out longer than any other unit. If you compare a Spartan hoplite unit against a high level barbarian unit going 4v10, the spartans are gonna last way longer. Thats their use. They are obsolete, but they are a shield

No half decent opponent is going to charge the front of a Hoplite phalanx with that many units; they're going to take advantage of the low numbers and close formation of the Hoplite phalanx to tie them up with cheaper medium spearmen whilst sending the rest of their men to the flanks.

[Aristeides]

No half decent opponent is going to charge the front of a Hoplite phalanx with that many units; they're going to take advantage of the low numbers and close formation of the Hoplite phalanx to tie them up with cheaper medium spearmen whilst sending the rest of their men to the flanks.

That could be countered by defending flanks with hoplites (and peltasts etc) and pushing for a breach in the center with makhairoi against their rabble.

[Maetharin]

What KAM just said in Video

[Wolf Priest]

What KAM just said in Video

I had to reverse-storyboard that entire scene in Storyboard class in university, so thank You for giving me Vietnam-style flashbacks.

[Wolf Priest]

Hello, I've been playing as Rome on the latest version, due to the new manpower system I can't recruit endless Principe/Hastati as I used to (which is good), so I'm having to rely a lot more on the native Greek Hoplite units.

Regarding this, I have some questions about how Hoplite are supposed to be used in this version, and Hellenic Greek armies in general. In past versions of DeI Hoplite were balanced to be good charging units, who then did no damage and just tanked large amounts of incoming damage. In the current version however, I can't seem to find their main use; when I put them in regular mode (no formation) they all put their spears away and seem to act as relatively mediocre swordsmen, however when I put them in the Hoplite Phalanx formation they seem to tank a decent amount of damage but get literally sweet FA in kills; often they'll actually lose more men than they kill in a head on clash.

Further on this point, I'm a little confused about where your damage comes from with the new Hellenic armies; with Rome it's heavy Infantry, with Barbarians it's mass light inf/ranged/cavalry, with the Successor States it's Phalanx hammer and Anvil, etc. However for the Hellenic armies in particular, the cavalry seems relatively weak compared to their Macedonian cousins, the Hoplite seem to do absolutely no damage whilst still being significantly more expensive than other infantry and just somewhat inferior to Phalangitai, their ranged units seem very meh, and their light infantry are all either mediocre swordsmen or light Hoplite which suffer from the same damage problem as regular Hoplite (not to mention low numbers).

Right, that's the essay over, would someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong with them, and how I should be trying to play them , cheers!

Peltasts?

[KYREAPER]

Hoplite tactics, very simple:

1. If using phalanx as main battleline...
--Form a wall of hoplites in defense mode --> they will hold the enemy in place longer than anyone else.
--Now flank with youre reserves or pelasts.

2. if flanking any unit with hoplites...
---Turn off phalanx and let them use swords(they will kick ass now when flanking). Otherwise they will not actually flank, but keep their distance from the backs of enemies.

3. If using phalanx as 1v1 unit in open field...
---use phalanx, but once they engage the enemy unit, DOUBLE click to attack the enemy unit again. This will make put them in offensive phalanx and you will see them push forward with their phalanx, allowing the 3rd row of the phalanx to now attack, giving them an incredible edge in the fight.
---(if using as main battleline, dont ever double click for them to attack... they will go out of position and get flanked and die quicker).

[Maetharin]

I had to reverse-storyboard that entire scene in Storyboard class in university, so thank You for giving me Vietnam-style flashbacks.

My Pleasure

Hoplite tactics, very simple:

1. If using phalanx as main battleline...
--Form a wall of hoplites in defense mode --> they will hold the enemy in place longer than anyone else.
--Now flank with youre reserves or pelasts.

2. if flanking any unit with hoplites...
---Turn off phalanx and let them use swords(they will kick ass now when flanking). Otherwise they will not actually flank, but keep their distance from the backs of enemies.

3. If using phalanx as 1v1 unit in open field...
---use phalanx, but once they engage the enemy unit, DOUBLE click to attack the enemy unit again. This will make put them in offensive phalanx and you will see them push forward with their phalanx, allowing the 3rd row of the phalanx to now attack, giving them an incredible edge in the fight.
---(if using as main battleline, dont ever double click for them to attack... they will go out of position and get flanked and die quicker).

My favourite tactic for using them offensively is simply attacking on the right end of the battle line, as flanking mali aren´t as bad on their shield side.
This way I can either gain local superiority and swoop them over from their right, or one by one let them start attacking offensively.

Kind of also fits with hellenic offensive thrusts traditionally coming on the right side of the battlefield.
I usually put my best Hoplites and a stronger complement of flanking troops there^^
Sometimes I even use an oblique advance if my left flank Hoplites aren´t very good

[Kassandros]

Peltasts and machairophoroi will absolutely tear through anything engaged with a hoplite phalanx. They're quick and agile, and you can rack up hundreds of kills on each unit.

[gornoviceanu]

I love using Alexandrian tactics as Hellenic factions:

Use a pike phalanx as your center line. I use 4-6 units, 6 ranks deep to keep my center line solid. In front of them, a thin line of greek peltasts, to absorb all that javelin fire since pikes are vulnerable to javelins. After the melee clash, move your center pikes up to support your peltasts while you retreat them behind the pike line. Keep these peltasts in reserve for the rest of the battle. Make sure you don't push your pikes too much so they don't get ahead of your flanks.

On one of your flanks, the one with more open and easier terrain, stack up your cavalry (general + 2 more shock/melee, + 2 more skirmish cav - tarantine cav is very reliable) supported by peltasts. This will be the flank you will be using to envelop your enemy. Use the peltasts to quickly support any melee cav engagement or counter enemy skirmisher cav. When you are richer, you can invest in royal peltasts since having elite melee on this flank works wonders.

The other flank's purpose is to shield your center from flanking until you flank your enemy. Hoplites and peltasts are your best choice. Again, use the peltasts in front of the hoplites to absorb the initial javelin and charge clash and send your hoplites into support when your peltasts are close.

[Maetharin]

I can imagine Hoplites to work rather well as sort of wavebreakers, with maybe 2/3 of an enemy units width between them and some narrow fronted shock infantry to push through those gaps.
This way, if an enemy attacks any one of your hoplites he may get in their respective flanks, but he won´t be able to countercharge your own gap attacks.
Another possibility would be peltasts pelting through those gaps.

[corsair831]

I can imagine Hoplites to work rather well as sort of wavebreakers, with maybe 2/3 of an enemy units width between them and some narrow fronted shock infantry to push through those gaps.
This way, if an enemy attacks any one of your hoplites he may get in their respective flanks, but he won´t be able to countercharge your own gap attacks.
Another possibility would be peltasts pelting through those gaps.

You're right the peltasts are pretty good, but again they're inferior to their barbarian counterparts, and the superior numbers of barbarian units as well as the close formations of greek phalanxes mean their own peltasts will inevitably be more effective.

The guy saying that Makiaphoroi will push through the centre; Makiaphoroi against barbarian swords isn't even a fight, barbarian swords are vastly superior and more cost efficient.

The other chap saying that Hoplite are a standard defensive unit meant for pinning an enemy down; you're right they're a pretty good defensive unit, but the cost of a bog standard Hoplite unit is ~900+, whereas you can get armoured barbarian spearmen for ~600 (which also have javelins, run faster, and have greater numbers per unit). The idea of using them to pin an enemy in place whilst you attack from the rear; this is the point I was making earlier, the Hellenic armies have no damage for that kind of strategy, a lot of their cavalry is borderline worthless and their swords and ranged units are pretty below average, so where's the damage for this hammer and anvil tactic coming from? (Not to mention that Phalangitai seem superior for a hammer and anvil).

As far as I can tell, the only way to make Hoplite cost efficient (again I'm playing against experienced and skilled players, not the AI) seems to be to use them to very (extremely) slowly grind units down. The problem with this being that by the time they've ground something down, their huge cost means they're almost always outnumbered, their slow movement speed means they can't really react to enemy movements and feints, and they're usually flanked by light infantry/javelins/slingers, which means that due to their extremely close formation a couple of waves of javelins will absolutely decimate a unit.

The light Hoplite are pretty decent, but their lack of javelins and lower numbers make them kind of "meh". I don't really know if there's any way that the Hellenic armies are not inferior to Macedonian/Generic Barbarian armies, unless anyone can think of anything I'm missing?