Diplomacy: Alliances and client states still messed up like in vanilla

[scipioafrianus]

Alliances and client states agreements still seem messed up. I had just negotiated Athenai to become defensive ally of me (Rome). The turn after Athenai had their only city, Athenai, conquered by the Basileion Odrysons. According to the diplomacy tooltip hovering over Athenai icon on the map (now representing their last army) I could read I got a -43 diplo penalty because of "Broken treaties with Athens"; and similar lesser penalties on friends of Athenai. Athens losing their city should not result in a broken defensive alliance, and it certainly shouldn't give me a hit to diplomacy with them and their friends and lower my reputation. For as long I have been playing RTW2 I can remember this happening from time to time and it's hugely destructive to the diplomatic game. Is DEI devs working on fixing these issues with diplomacy, or planning to overhaul it in the future?

[Maetharin]

I think this is hardcoded, so there´s nothing much the devs can do...
And IMO it also makes a lot of sense, you haven´t properly defended your defensive ally and they lost their last city,
why would they be friendly towards you?

[scipioafrianus]

Yeah I was a real backstabber when a faction attacked my ally the very turn after our alliance was established. So I somehow broke the treaty, even though that's what the whole treaty agreement is: an agreement that both parties are obliged to declare war on an aggressor should either be attacked.

"why would they be friendly towards you?". Because they were on the brink of destruction yet I chose to ally myself with them? After they lost their city they still had that army left which lived on for a few turns out in the sea. I could(and would) have sent an army to retake Athens and liberate it.

[Stilldead]

Yeah I was a real backstabber when a faction attacked my ally the very turn after our alliance was established. So I somehow broke the treaty, even though that's what the whole treaty agreement is: an agreement that both parties are obliged to declare war on an aggressor should either be attacked.

"why would they be friendly towards you?". Because they were on the brink of destruction yet I chose to ally myself with them? After they lost their city they still had that army left which lived on for a few turns out in the sea. I could(and would) have sent an army to retake Athens and liberate it.

Yeah you definitely would, try to send them an Email/letter explaining your exact intentions next time. Maybe they'll understand so it will prevent worsening your relations with em.

[scipioafrianus]

Yeah you definitely would, try to send them an Email/letter explaining your exact intentions next time. Maybe they'll understand so it will prevent worsening your relations with em.

First of all I DID send them a letter where I explained how I was very sorry that there would be no way my forces could reach Athens in time preventing Basileion Odrysons from capturing and looting it. The letter was delivered a few months to the surviving Athen army starving away out in the sea. FYI they actually understood my point, and was just about to forgive me when a giant sea turtle ate them all. so as you see, the diplo panalty was never removed although all was de facto forgiven. (<-True story). Anyways when we signed the agreement I was under the distinct impression that Athens was fully aware of the fact that no roman legion would stand any chance of traveling from the Italian peninsula to Athens in just one month (12TPY installed). However my divine presence at the negotiation table must have been just that: Divine and surely incited Athens into believing Rome could do anything imaginable. I has since become clear to me that Athens revered us as true Gods on earth and clearly expected us to deliver them from their doom. I will not make the same mistake again, at least not unknowingly.

In truth if not for that alliance I would still be at peace with the Basileion Odrysons; a mighty power that was steamrolling all of the greek nations. So why would I put my bum on the line, in an alliance that was sure to incur upon me the wrath of the hordes of the east? Because I was concerned for the greek states, but not because I have a particular love for greeks or am especially saddened to see them eradicated, but because I would value eventually having them as client states donating huge tributes to me each turn. And because I just love to be overlord over smaller client states. Also Basileion Odrysons had to be opposed before they got so big as to be virtually unstoppable. Of course I can still liberate Athens and achieve this; however it just doesn't feel right anymore, they don't deserve it, even if they did forgive me. If they saw us as Gods how could they ever dare to doubt our motivations and actions, however unfortunate things may may go? Maybe I'll still liberate Athens and give them their freedom, only then destroy them again as punishment, at least that would make some sense.

[Maetharin]

Concerning Client states, I'd recommend going for this submod in the submods forum which gets rid of them and renames satrapies vassals, it really helps with whacky Client State behaviour.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ies-to-Vassals

[scipioafrianus]

Concerning Client states, I'd recommend going for this submod in the submods forum which gets rid of them and renames satrapies vassals, it really helps with whacky Client State behaviour.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ies-to-Vassals

Thanks, that looks awesome. It's an old one though, hopefully it still works both with the game itself and with DEI.

[Maetharin]

It should work, if not just PM me.
I´m sure the tedious part of it was the txt editing, occupation options and so forth aren´t really too difficult.
I myself combined it with a submod of mine which takes away Barbarians ability to occupy, just subjugate, liberate and sack^^

[Dresden]

@Maetharin you know you can change the AI occupation options without changing the base options? In the cai_personality tables, it changes their priority. For example in DeI right now barbarians have higher chances to sack, etc. compared to other factions.

[Maetharin]

Funnily enough the AI still does expand with my submod, which is why I´m still using it^^
Especially if Barbarians are the only culture who are able to have client states, it becomes a pretty fluid affair.
I´m currently thinking of using the txt files from the satrapies to vassals submod and apply them to client states as well, this way the player is non the wiser what he´s actually creating xD

[Mickey.CJ]

I'm confused by what the unknown0 column is supposed to stand for?

[Dresden]

You can look in the assembly kit for column names