Questions about Asia circa 12th century AD

[Conrad The Mad]

I am working on a plan for a mod centered around the Mongols. A tentative starting year for that mod is 1186 or 1187. The map will span from Japan in the east to Persia in the west. I plan on editing this post to add questions as they come up. I ask these questions, because I have hit a wall in my research, and would like input from the community.

I find in an effort to orient myself with this sort of research that this map has been very helpful. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hem_1200ad.jpg

Index: (copy & paste headers into browser's "find" function for easier navigation)

Question Category A: Japan [Answered]
Question Category B: The Ghurid Sultanate and then later The Delhi Sultanate [Answered]
Question Category C: Hindu India [Answered]
Question Category D: Qara Khitai Khanate [Answered]
Question Category E: Mongolia [Input still greatly needed. Refer friends that may know about Mongolian history]
Question Category F: Faction List & Symbolism (Ensigns, Herarldry, Flags, etc.) [Updated April 15, 2017-Progress being made. Input needed]


Question Category A: Japan [Answered]

Answer/Resolution:
I have decided on a mostly unified Japan under the Minamoto Bakufu. Depending on the starting date, this faction may appear as Kamakura Shogunate. I may also include The Oshu Fujiwara Bakufu as either a playable or independent faction. Thanks to Rollingwave, and mad orc for their contribution on this subject.

Summary:
This is the Kamakura era. My understanding is that the Kamakura Shoguns were little more than puppets to the Hojo (a branch of Taira) clan's Shikken (Regent of sorts.) Given the division, and nature of this situation, it makes a lot of sense to me for there to be at least two Japanese factions. I am, however, having trouble justifying territorial holdings, and further, just what those factions should be for the sake of being as accurate as possible.

1. Should it be Minamoto & Taira, Minamoto & Hojo, Kamakura Shogunate & Hojo's Shikken?
2. Can I get clarification on the following: "The Shogun is to the Shogunate, as the Shikken is to the Shikkenate." I think this is probably incorrect, but I DID see a reference to Shikkenate somewhere. What is the appropriate equivalent? So that I can better name such a faction outside of the more generic "Hojo Clan," or "Taira Clan."

Question Category B: The Ghurid Sultanate and then later The Delhi Sultanate [Answered]

Answer/Resolution:

Due to a variety of input given by TWC users, I am leaning more and more towards The Ghurid Sultanate, and a non playable emergent faction--The Delhi Sultanate. There was an additional question about symbolism, etc that is still open in the "Symbolism" section, but I'm saying that this category is closed. Thanks to mad orc & Copperknickers II for invaluable contribution here.

Summary:
Sultan Mu'izz ad-Din Muhammad of Ghor set up Qutb-ud-din Aibak as master of slaves. Qutb-ud-din Aibak went on campaigns into India, and eventually succession of the Ghurid Sultanate fell to him. He founded the Delhi Sultanate under the Mamluk (slave) dynasty.

1. Is the following a fair assumption. All attempts to find a Ghurid flag, or symbolism have failed. However, this is said to be the Delhi Sultanate's flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_...lan_atlas).png . Given the close relationship between the Ghurid & Delhi Sultanates, would it be fair to assume the Ghurid flag may have been similar?
2. Does it make sense that the Ghurid Sultanate would eventually be reformed into the Delhi Sultanate (parallel modding example from TATW. Eriador becomes Numenor.)

Question Category C: Hindu India [Answered]

Answer/Resolution

Thanks to Copperknickers II & especially mad orc. I have decided to have four playable Indian factions, and Delhi Sultanate as an emergent faction. I do plan on India being a territory dense area, similar to Germany or France in various mods. Given the cultural diversity and interest of this area, if you really want to press the issue, I may look at altering my decision here. Keep in mind, though, this is a Mongolian mod. Creating immersion and diversity in Mongolia takes precedence over the immersion of India.

Summary:
India in this period seems to be divide among many different kingdoms. It's size and historical significance, to my mind, warrants multiple factions.

1. Are the following good faction choices? [Revision] Kingdom of Suena (Yadavas Maratha), Chola Empire, Sena Empire, Chauhan Rajputs, (emergent) Delhi Sultanate

Question Category D: Kara Khitai Khanate [Answered]

Answer/Resolution:
I cannot justify three factions on a relatively uninteresting, and spread out area of the map. I will acknowledge the Kara-Khanid Khanate via units, buildings, descriptions, etc, but the faction will not appear neither as playable nor independent. I MAY include Kingdom of Qocho as a playable vassal of the Kara-Khitai. Kara Khitai Khanate will be included as a singular playable faction. I may include a script for the event of Kutchlug's usurpation of the Qara Khitai leadership.

Summary:
Mongol related people the "Western Liao" formerly the Liao dynasty displaced by the Jin dynasty moved westward. Ruling over the Kara-Khanid Khanate, and Uyghur Kingdom of Qocho (these seem to have been their vassals)

1. Would it be a good idea/accurate to include Kara-Khanid Khanate & Uyghur Kingdom of Qocho as vassal factions of the Kara Khitai? It makes sense given the Uyghur significance to the time period. They surrendered seperately to Genghis Khan and were given quite a bit of status because of their peaceful surrender. Would you disclude one or both? Why?

Question Category E: Mongolia

Summary:
I have never seen or heard of any mod doing the Mongolians real justice. There were so many factions involved, and I would really like to expand on this particular area. It has, however, been difficult to pin down precisely the "who, what, and where" of the period. It seems to me that Temujin (not yet Genghis Khan), has been made Khan of the Khamog Mongols. Jamukha is his rival, and is allied with the Keraites... etc etc. It's complicated inter tribal stuff.

1. Tentatively, would the following factions be accurate: Jadaran Khanate (Jamukha's Tribe Coalition, declared universal Khan or Gur Khan by tribes hostile to Temujin) Keraite Khanate (allies of Jamukha,) Naiman Khanate (allies of Jamukha,) and Mongolian Khanate (Temujin's faction) -- could these be named better?
2. Are any of the remaining tribes especially significant to be included as a faction in their own right? Taichuds, Tatars, Merkits, etc. At this point most of the less significant tribes were either backing Jamuga, or united under Temujin (correct me if I'm wrong.) It seems a bit ridiculous that there should be more than the four already included.
3. Can I get some clarity as to precisely what these factions might hold territorially? I understand The Naimans were significantly western. The Keraites would have been south west of the Khamog Mongols, The Khamog Mongols would have been more easterly. Where and what Jamukha would have held though is somewhat confusing to me. Would it be fair since Jamukha was declared universal khan by so many territories, that the bulk of non Khamog, Keraite, and Naiman territory would more or less fall under his control, in the context of a Total War faction?

Question Category F: Faction List & Symbolism (Ensigns, Herarldry, Flags, etc.)

Summary:

[Update/Progress:] I have found a great template for a less stereotypical faction symbol design. I still need help with symbolism, but have already completed several faction symbols. Depending on interest I may upload a few at a time, or post all once I've completed them.

One reason for this section, is to clarify the best names for factions re: faction specific cultural & historical accuracy as they would best appeal to a primarily English speaking audience. E.g. Song Dynasty is readily recognized, however the Song Dynasty seemed to preside over a monarchy, with an emperor present, etc. Given other factions, "Kingdom of Dali," "Kingdom of Qocha," etc. would it be better to refer to the Song as a kingdom, an empire, or is Song Dynasty going to be the very best name?

Also important, given the nature of the time period, it has frequently been difficult to find appropriate symbolism to include as part of faction symbols. As a reference to this category, rather than numbered bullet points, I will enter a complete list of potential faction names, and what I think their symbol should include. If the entry is blank, I have no idea how to proceed. To refer to this question category, as per the very first paragraph, you may want to say "QF: [Faction name]" e.g. "QF: Song"

While it seems appropriate to include Chinese Kanji and other scripts to some degree, I am absolutely not interested in mixing Chinese Kanji with strictly non Chinese factions. e.g. Dai Viet, Khmer Empire, etc. While at the time China was the "big kid on the play ground," so to speak, these peoples had their own culture, and I do not want Chinese Kanji everywhere.

Just because script & kanji may be present along with a graphic, doesn't mean I am not open to discussing and learning more on the subject. By all means, reply about any faction.

Citations: ¹ Kanji & other scripts are nice to work with, but it would be better to also include a symbol (dynastic, astronomical, animal, flora, etc.) ² Kanji seems especially inappropriate here, because the faction isn't actually Chinese, strictly speaking.

[Faction Symbols Complete]

- The Khamog Mongols & Mongolian Khanate: (Event will be present to transition one to other re: Temujin becoming Genghis Khan)

- Keraite Khanate

- Jadaran Khanate

- Naiman Khanate

- Kara Khitai Khanate

- Minamoto Bakufu

- Fujiwara Bakufu

- Kingdom of Goryeo

- Jin Dynasty

- Song Dynasty

- Khmer Empire (Cambodia)

- Dai Viet (Lý dynasty)

- Bagan Empire (Myanmar)

- Chola Empire

- Kingdom of Suena

- Chauhan Rajputana

- Delhi Sultanate

- Ghurid Sultanate

- Khwarezmian Empire

- Malikate of Oman

- Cuman Khanates

- Timurids

[Incomplete, but all resources present]

- Kingdom of Dali

- Kingdom of Guge (Tibet)

- Sena Empire

[Rough or no idea, HELP GREATLY NEEDED)

- Kingdom of Qocho (Buddhist Uyghurs): [Long shot: anyone know much about old Uyghur script? Can someone convert modern Uyghur to old Uyghur for "Kingdom of Qocho" sized @ ~200x200px using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Uyghur_alphabet ?]
- Xi Xia (Tangut/Minyak Empire): 西夏² [Can someone fluent with ?Mandarin use this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tangut_script and other "Tangut Script" equivalency sources to construct 120x120px of the Tangut script equivalent to Xi Xia?]

[Conrad The Mad]

I do not have time to continue this project right now, but I figure I owed you all at least what I managed to throw together--A map including proposed factions, area, etc. I hope to resume work on this mod at some point in the future. There are a few faction symbols missing, and I want to revamp the Mongolian faction symbols. Hopefully at some point in the future I will resume this project.

[Copperknickers II]

I am working on a plan for a mod centered around the Mongols. A tentative starting year for that mod is 1186 or 1187. The map will span from Japan in the east to Persia in the west. I plan on editing this post to add questions as they come up. I ask these questions, because I have hit a wall in my research, and would like input from the community. When addressing an answer, you can use short form designation referencing questions. E.g. if you want to answer a question re: "Question Category A: Japan, 1st numbered bullet point" simply type "QA1" to refer to it. Once I have answers, I will follow the bullet points with "[Answered]" with a link to the answer in the form of a post edit

I find in an effort to orient myself with this sort of research that this map has been very helpful. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hem_1200ad.jpg

Firstly, have you read Al-Biruni's Tarikh al-Hind? You seem to have done your homework so I you may well have done, but it's essential reading for Medieval Khwarezm and India if not (minus the technical astrology related parts of course). Easily and legally available online in various places.

Question Category B: The Ghurid Sultanate and then later The Delhi Sultanate

Summary:
Sultan Mu'izz ad-Din Muhammad of Ghor set up Qutb-ud-din Aibak as master of slaves. Qutb-ud-din Aibak went on campaigns into India, and eventually succession of the Ghurid Sultanate fell to him. He founded the Delhi Sultanate under the Mamluk (slave) dynasty.

1. Is the following a fair assumption. All attempts to find a Ghurid flag, or symbolism have failed. However, this is said to be the Delhi Sultanate's flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_...lan_atlas).png . Given the close relationship between the Ghurid & Delhi Sultanates, would it be fair to assume the Ghurid flag may have been similar?
2. Does it make sense that the Ghurid Sultanate would eventually be reformed into the Delhi Sultanate (parallel modding example from TATW. Eriador becomes Numenor.)

That's a slightly simplified version of events. What happened was that Muhammad of Ghor, who was assassinated in 1206, had no male heirs. So the Ghorid state was divided among the mamluk (slave warrior) generals, with Qutb ud-Din Aibak taking the Indian part (and also part of Afghanistan, until he was forced out of it). Aibak died in 1210 whilst playing polo, and was replaced by Iltutmish, his son-in-law and the most famous Delhi sultan (well, after Iltutmish had defeated rival claimant Aram Shah in battle near Delhi).

So in reality the Ghorid state ended with the death of Muhammad of Ghor. In a way it was the Afghan part that was the true successor state rather than the Indian part - Ghor after all is a region in Western Afghanistan. Although the Indian part was the larger and more powerful successor. Anyhow, I think it's entirely reasonable to reform the Ghorids into the Delhi sultanate for gameplay reasons, since if you start as the Ghorids in 1186 then you want to be able to play as the Delhi Sultanate later on, otherwise they'd have to be unplayable I guess and then it wouldn't be a great mod would it, if you couldn't play as the most important state in medieval India. In an ideal world when Muhammad dies you should have the option to play as Qutb ud-Din Aibak, or Taj ud-Din Yildiz (his rival in the west), and get the western or eastern part of the empire depending on which you choose. But TW is an imperfect way of representing dynastic struggles and I'd definitely choose Aibak's Indian dominion over Yildiz's as the more important.

Question Category C: Hindu India

Summary:
India in this period seems to be divide among many different kingdoms. It's size and historical significance, to my mind, warrants multiple factions.

1. Are the following good faction choices? Kingdom of Suena (Yadavas dynasty,) Hoysala Empire, Sena Empire (Bengal). Would you add a faction, or remove one of these as insignificant? Why?

Let's take a wider look at the history of medieval India:

Hindu India in 1186 was divided into about 12 kingdoms. Some of them were more prominent than others for various reasons:

The Cholas were one of the oldest kingdoms in the world, dating back to the time of the Punic Wars in Europe and predating the Han dynasty in China. They rose and fell over the centuries, but their zenith was achieved just 100 years before 1186, when they conquered about a third of India, including Bengal, and became the only indigenous Indian kingdom to become a major maritime power, as they mounted raids on South-East Asia and briefly established hegemony over Malaya and parts of Sumatra. However not long after 1200 they were defeated by their neighbour and nemesis, the Pandyas, with whom they had a rivalry stretching back for over a thousand years.

Sena Bengal had been founded in the 11th century when the Senas, a leading Hindu noble family in the Pala Empire who possibly migrated from South India during the period of Chola rule, conquered their (very Hindicised) Buddhist overlords and established their own kingdom. It was the first and last great Bengali Hindu kingdom, Bengal being one of the most distinctive and historically important regions of India, after the heartland Hindi belt and the Dravidian South. In 1186 it was ruled by Lakshman Sen, an expansionist who supposedly captured Assam, Bihar and even briefly the holy city of Varanasi, although the records are slightly patchy and may be exaggerated. It persisted into the latter half of the 13th century until it was eventually conquered by the Delhi Sultanate.

The Chalukyas were a kingdom founded in the 11th century by King Vikram-Aditya, ruled from his impressive capital of Kalyani. They presided over an interesting but tumultuous period of religious and cultural conflict between upper caste Hindus, Shaivites (rural low caste worshippers of Shiva in his pre-Indo-Aryan form) and Jains, out of which came various important literary and juristic works. In 1186 they had just seized back power from Kalachuri Bijjala, a fanatical Jainist tyrant (not often you get to say those three words in the same sentence!). The Yadavas and Hoysala were vassal kingdoms of the Chalukyas who achieved independence when the latter began to decline: Hoysala continued on in pious obscurity without showing much of an appetite for military matters until they were conquered by the Delhi sultanate. The Yadavas conquered the Chalukyas not long after 1186 but they too were also conquered by the Delhi sultanate.

Out of the ruins of the Chalukyas and their successor states came the fabled empire of Vijayanagar, the last great Hindu kingdom of India and the preservers South Indian literature, architecture and traditions against the Mughals. The empire did fall to the Mughals but its legacy lived on in the minor kingdoms such as Madurai which remained largely independent until the British conquest.

Other kingdoms included Malwa, the Chauhan Rajputs under the formidable King Prithviraj, and his rival King Jaichand based in Varanasi: when the Ghorids were putting the Rajputs under pressure, Prithviraj supposedly requested aid from Jaichand, but Jaichand refused to give it (because Prithviraj had taken his daughter as a wife without permission), leading to the Muslim conquest of Delhi and subsequently all of North India, and making 'Jaichand' the Indian equivalent of the Christian 'Judas'.


If it were my choice, I would choose:

The Cholas, the Senas, the Chauhans and the Chalukyas. That gives you one South Indian, one Bengali, one Rajput and one extra. The Chalukyas could be substituted for the Yadavas or Hoysala but you don't need more than one of those three, and the Chalukyas have a slightly more characterful identity than the other two imo. All three of them are so obscure that it would be unlikely anyone would ever play as them but at least the Chalukyas are less obscure than the other two.

Question Category D: Qara Khitai Khanate

Summary:
Mongol related people the "Western Liao" formerly the Liao dynasty displaced by the Jin dynasty moved westward. Ruling over the Kara-Khanid Khanate, and Uyghur Kingdom of Qocho (these seem to have been their vassals)

1. Would it be a good idea/accurate to include Kara-Khanid Khanate & Uyghur Kingdom of Qocho as vassal factions of the Qara Khitai? This would add a third Islamic faction (1. Khwarezmian, 2. Ghurid/Delhi Sultanate 3. Kara-Khanid Khanate) It also makes sense given the Uyghur significance to the time period. They surrendered seperately to Genghis Khan and were given quite a bit of status because of their peaceful surrender. Would you disclude one or both? Why?

Are you not including Oman or the Ghaznavids? I can't imagine a map that includes Khwarezm and South India but doesn't include Eastern Arabia, and the Omanis were a maritime power who established colonies in Africa. A bit of alternate history having them colonising India would be fun without being ridiculous. Also they would make a change from the ubiquitous Turkic hordes. But maybe I'm just biased against Turkic hordes because I play too much Broken Crescent and always have my infantry slaughtered by horse archers whenever I play an Indian faction.

Anyway good luck with the mod. I tried to start an Asian mod myself many years ago: Rise of the Mughals, for Med2. We got a barebones map and a bit of artwork but then it kind of petered out unfortunately. Sorry I can't help with symbols or East/North Asian stuff but I hope the above proved useful in some way.

[Conrad The Mad]

Very very helpful. Thank you

[Owlparrot3]

Jayc hand of the To mara dynasty was based in kanauj not Varanasi. Prithviraj was based in Almer .By this time Cola rule had weaken replaced by Pandy as .If you are interested I will give a more detailed view of India today evening .Because here autocorret is murdering me .

[Copperknickers II]

Jayc hand of the To mara dynasty was based in kanauj not Varanasi. Prithviraj was based in Almer .By this time Cola rule had weaken replaced by Pandy as .If you are interested I will give a more detailed view of India today evening .Because here autocorret is murdering me .

Indeed. I should have mentioned, there's a kind of legend associated with Kings Prithviraj and Jaichand which is rather historically inaccurate. I was describing the legend, hence the word 'supposedly', but perhaps I didn't make that clear enough. Prithviraj was actually based in Ajmer not Delhi, as the legend claims.

[Owlparrot3]

First of all the people above me have written good information .I would just like to add a little more .Since India is more better at the south ,lets begin from the south .

Srilanka was a feudoatry of the Cholas but it would be better to just makethem independent for the game .

The Cholas were not at the peak of their power in 1187 as the smaller Pandya and Chera and Hoysala kingdoms had taken the territory from them .But then around this time the Cholas got the land of the eastern chalukyas .The eastern chalukyas did not decline or absorbed in the chola empire .Rather the eastern chalukya prince and king became Kullotanga of the Chola kingdom thus merging the 2 kingdoms .

The Suena Yadavas came to power in western deccan at this time .Their empire would continue for about a 100 years more .For units ,you can give the Yadavas a strong unit called Maratha sardar as the Yadavas themselves were a Maratha family .

Then we come to the Solankis in modern day ‘Gujurath’ .The Solankis were not rajputs but were closely related to them .Just some time before in 1144 Raja Jaysimha the greatest ruler of the Solankis had died .He had expanded their power by leaps and bounds .Thus the Solankis had also defeated the Paramaras .The Solanki army though could be same as Rajput and part Yadava armies also incorporating some aspects of the middle east .

To the south the Pandya,Hoysala and Chera kingdoms are on the rise but not there yet .In game they will have the same units as the Cholas .

The Paramaras were severly weakened by 1187 .They had been defeated on all fronts and had been reduced to their core territory in Malwa .Their army will be Rajput of course .But yet the Paramaras were still a major power (you could compare them to Austria Hungary in 1914)

Then the Chauhans,the chauhans which ruled from Ajmer had a ruler called Prithviraj whos semi legendary tale is quite false .He had become king at the age of 13 in 1181 .The chauhans ruled a big territory of almost a big part of modern day ‘Rajasthan’ and also Delhi and some other smaller areas .Their army however was not the most strongest as many think .Also the Tomaraa land was theirs too .

The Gadhvals ruled a strip of land in Kannauj .Their army was the strongest or atleast one step more than the chauhans .Jaichand was a Tomar lineage king on the Gadhwal throne .Their army will also be predominantly Rajput .

At 1187 the Senas who ruled Bengal were under their most illustrious ruler Lakshmansena who would historically go on defeat just about all his neighbours .Their army units would be more armoured than any other in India because historically Bengali armies are the best when it comes to armour .

The Soomras ruled in Sindh .Not much is known about them to me except that they were very hard to conquer because of the terrain .They were Islamic and should have Islamic armies .

Nepal was a free kingdom at this time and ruled by some minor Rajput rulers but Tibet is like a big danger howering upon them .

The kingdom of Kamarupa was an indian kingdom which ruled over modern day ‘ASSAM’

Then we have Chedi which you can keep as playable simply for the fact that you can keep cool Gond tribals in their army and they are too major a power to not be playable .They are ruled by the Kalachuri dynasty .

The Chandelas are a regional people close to the Chedis .

Then the Rashtra kutas who once ruled half of india in the 9^th century are now a minor poer to the north .They can be kept playable if you want because they have a rich legacy .

The Kalachuris and Chandellas should get unique units called Gonds which were fierce hindu tribals living in the areas .The paramaras should get them too and they should be available as mercenaries to all .Later on in the 14^th century the Gonds became fully independent .

All the Rajputs except Nepal should also get Bhils ,another type of mercenaries tribals who share a strong bond with Rajputs .Rana Pratap the great 16^th century ruler and his ancestors crowned themselves at the hands of Bhils.

Of course the Ghurids who are very weakly servants of Persian rulers were at the height of their power ruling modern day Afghanistan,Punjab,Multan ,Panipat and also various parts of Sindh and Balochistan .They were at that moment of 1187ad poised to attack India under Mohhamed Ghori .

Of course this is not perfect and there are still many loopholes and maybe(though mostly not)some inaccuracies regarding the Chandellas and Kalachris .I will clear them in the coming days .I will soon show you a detailed map too .
Soon I will also take help of Wikipedia as all this was written offline through various books and knowledge that I had .We will then get a more clearer picture for the actual mod .
More soon .



Violet :Chandelas
Big strange blue blob to south:Yadavas
Dark blue.Chauhans
Red-Paramaras
Pink -Senas
Strange out of map blob East to senas -Kamarupa
Light green -Persia
Red-Paramaras
Grey-Soomra
Grey south -Pandyas
Dark green-Ghurids
Black -Cholas
Brown-Gadhwals

Yellow bright-Solankis
Dark yellow north-Rashtrakutas

[Conrad The Mad]

Hot damn, dude. This is awesome. This is precisely the kind of detail I have been hoping for. I look forward to hearing more from you. +rep

[Owlparrot3]

Tibet was still under the U Tsang in 1187 .These were basically not so centralized people .Kham to the north was independent .



In this eu4 map see only UsTang and Kham .Yes its a 1444 map ,but in 1187 Tibet was the exact same as in 1444 map above .Ladakh is the same too .Ignore the rest of it .

U stang is the Blue blob on top of India and Kham is green small blob on north east of U stang .

[Conrad The Mad]

U Tsang is a province. A province which has been presided over by many different governing bodies. During my time table, Tibet was going through "The Era of Fragmentation." I simply chose Guge as the faction, because of all the warring factions (various warlords, etc) the Kingdom of Guge seemed to be the most prevalent. I can't justify identifying Tibet as fully united under one power during this period, and am still researching as how best to proceed on the subject.

I am in complete disagreement with identifying "U Tsang" as a faction, and especially a united one. "Between 842 and 1247, no central authority was in control of Tibet." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era_of_Fragmentation

[Owlparrot3]

I meant Guge only .It's like Guge people ruling utsang province so the kingdoms name is not yet Tibet because of Kham .

[Conrad The Mad]

Ah, OK. Sorry, my mistake.

[Owlparrot3]

I was referring to that eu4 map .Think of it like this .Those u stand in that map were ruled by guge in 1187 .Just substitute u stang there for guge on that map .

[RollingWave]

That's what all under heaven mod tried to do mostly but they couldn't really get all the way through to a finished product..

For your Japan question

1186-87 is just the conclusion of the Genpei war, which means a mostly unified Japan. the only other faction that clearly is separate from them at this point was the Oshu Fujiwara clan and the various Emishi tribes

The Song merely called itself Song, but the kingdom / empire designation are arbitrary for most of these anyway, no one really called themselves a "Khanate" either for example, and the "Shogunate" is also a later day designation. (granted, they did call themselves to some extend the Bakafu . ) . since the Emperor was the leader of the Song the common standard if your going to use these designation is probably to just say they're an Empire. (as well as the Jin )

Hojo was never a separate power from the Miyamoto, the thing is that Hojo was the first Daimyo's wife, and because his main line died pretty soon after the Hojo became the effective power who can decide who's Shogun ( it was usually kids or powerless nobles, even the direct royal relatives. ) essentially they hijacked the shogunate.

You could describe the Miyamoto by it's split fiefs but that's kinda weak as well.

[Conrad The Mad]

Awesome, Rollingwave:

AUH seems to be claiming that it's not dead here and there, even recently, but that it's a one man team in Yëlu Dashi. Is it in fact dead? Regardless, what I really wanted in a mod of Asia, was to create all the eastern answers to the questions raised by Stainless Steel and meet the two somewhere in Persia. I'm afraid the scope of the map proposed by AUH is inadequate to my mind. I feel that excluding India, but moreso the Khwarezmians (arguably the main reason Genghis Khan bothered going as far west as he did,) would have been a tremendous mistake on the part of AUH. Their claim was to be smaller for the sake of quality. I argue that when it comes to Total War, quantity is a HUGE part of quality. They're definitely NOT mutually exclusive. The more factions, the more territories, etc--the better.


Re: your answers

A lot of this information was the direction I was leaning, but I just couldn't get that solid clarification, and I am starting to lean towards a smaller, but fully unified Japan given its proximity to Korea. Your input was definitely an influencing factory in my decision here. Thank you very much.

I should add that my goal is to try to emulate the layout of Stainless Steel's territory density. Eg. Japan would be something like the British Isles (the second faction was to replace Scotland, and I may still include the Fujiwara.) Korea, China & South East Asia, would be something like Europe (France, Germany, Italy, Iberia.) While there is a lot of water out that way, there is no central sea like the Mediterranean. My solution for this will be a navigable Huang Ho, Yangtze, and perhaps a river in India or somewhere else. My goal is to get 199 land regions, with 1 water region like Stainless Steel.

[Roma_Victrix]

The Jin-Song Wars would be a neat thing to simulate, although your mod seems more oriented as being a prelude to the Mongol invasions. Fascinating, though!

[Conrad The Mad]

The Jin-Song Wars would be a neat thing to simulate, although your mod seems more oriented as being a prelude to the Mongol invasions. Fascinating, though!

I am not opposed to simulating events like this though. Anything to add body to the mod, provided that it is relevant to the period. Given the tentative starting date, I see this being around the time the Jin-Song Wars were ending.

Events I'm toying with:

- Ghurid Sultanate succeeded by Delhi Sultanate
- Kutchlug fleeing Genghis Khan, and usurping Qara Khitai
- Minamato eliminating Oshu Fujiwara and forming the Kamakura Shogunate
- Temujin Khan of the Khamog Mongols becomes Genghis Khan

What I don't like about a lot of these events is that many of each will waste a faction slot, and I'd prefer to have as many factions as possible. I may have to revisit the starting date for the faction balance/immersion to be as interesting as possible.

I'd appreciate input on ideas here as well, but I am still very much an amateur at modding, and at this point am more interested in addressing the map, factions, symbolism, etc.

[RollingWave]

Awesome, Rollingwave:

AUH seems to be claiming that it's not dead here and there, even recently, but that it's a one man team in Yëlu Dashi. Is it in fact dead? Regardless, what I really wanted in a mod of Asia, was to create all the eastern answers to the questions raised by Stainless Steel and meet the two somewhere in Persia. I'm afraid the scope of the map proposed by AUH is inadequate to my mind. I feel that excluding India, but moreso the Khwarezmians (arguably the main reason Genghis Khan bothered going as far west as he did,) would have been a tremendous mistake on the part of AUH. Their claim was to be smaller for the sake of quality. I argue that when it comes to Total War, quantity is a HUGE part of quality. They're definitely NOT mutually exclusive. The more factions, the more territories, etc--the better.


Re: your answers

A lot of this information was the direction I was leaning, but I just couldn't get that solid clarification, and I am starting to lean towards a smaller, but fully unified Japan given its proximity to Korea. Your input was definitely an influencing factory in my decision here. Thank you very much.

I should add that my goal is to try to emulate the layout of Stainless Steel's territory density. Eg. Japan would be something like the British Isles (the second faction was to replace Scotland, and I may still include the Fujiwara.) Korea, China & South East Asia, would be something like Europe (France, Germany, Italy, Iberia.) While there is a lot of water out that way, there is no central sea like the Mediterranean. My solution for this will be a navigable Huang Ho, Yangtze, and perhaps a river in India or somewhere else. My goal is to get 199 land regions, with 1 water region like Stainless Steel.

SS's British Isle is probably over representing it's population by a pretty large margin. (which is why my sub mod for it greatly cut back on their region .) the thing is people tend to forget that Today's population proportion is not the same as it was in the 12th century (aka Britain today roughly = France, but that was NOWHERE close to the case in 12th century.)

The Yellow River is / was not really navigable, at least not by large crafts for any extended length. The Yangtsi is very much navigable for almost the entirety of it's mid to lower reaches and that played a huge part in how the Mongols eventually Conquered the Song.

Unfortunately, the M2TW engine's sea battle is non-existent

AUH: I dunno, there was a semi working alpha version already many years already (with a map and music and some of the units and they even used a trick to make wonder like structures on the map.), but Yelu never answer my request to just let me have the whole files so I can finish it . ( I can do basically everything that doesn't involve making original content.)

[RollingWave]

I am not opposed to simulating events like this though. Anything to add body to the mod, provided that it is relevant to the period. Given the tentative starting date, I see this being around the time the Jin-Song Wars were ending.

Events I'm toying with:

- Ghurid Sultanate succeeded by Delhi Sultanate
- Kutchlug fleeing Genghis Khan, and usurping Qara Khitai
- Minamato eliminating Oshu Fujiwara and forming the Kamakura Shogunate
- Temujin Khan of the Khamog Mongols becomes Genghis Khan

What I don't like about a lot of these events is that many of each will waste a faction slot, and I'd prefer to have as many factions as possible. I may have to revisit the starting date for the faction balance/immersion to be as interesting as possible.

I'd appreciate input on ideas here as well, but I am still very much an amateur at modding, and at this point am more interested in addressing the map, factions, symbolism, etc.

1. changing faction names involve basically using a faction slot, which I generally don't recommend doing as there's a fairly limited number of those. however you could obviously make an emergent faction event. But the first Delhi Sultanates were effectively a continuation of the Ghurids anyway, just a different dynasty so to speak.
2. Similar issue, you could spawn character and make him the faction leader and then change diplomatic status, Kutchlug's Qara Khitai was still more or less... welll Qara Khita.
3. This could simply be an event after you take Tohoku and unlock certain things. The faction would be the Miyamoto Bakafu anyway.
4. Similarly, this could be an event that gives Temujin a trait that has an epithet on it. So his name show up becomes Temujin - Genghis Khan

[Conrad The Mad]

My understanding regarding #1 is that the Ghurid Dynasty continued for a while in the Afghanistan successor state, and the Delhi Sultanate began more in the Indian territories, but I could be wrong. I think Copperknickers or mad orc said something about this.