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Thread: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

  1. #21
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    ^Consider not posting in a thread of the actual history forum with your above rather mundane and sentimental opinions, not backed by something people can read. It is not fair to Roma, who went into the trouble of writing a wiki article with more than 400 references to established history sources. You can't seriously be of the view you post some counter-argument.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  2. #22
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    It isn't sentimental since I cannot have any sentiments to the children of someone 2200 years ago, but rather the most serious fact, that they died and din't inherit him, as did Alexander die only after 12 years in rule, being poisoned, by the greeks. Isn't Diogenes Laertius a good historian and a source for you ? Why, should I quote the greek prime minister ?! Is it necessary every historian in the Antiquity to have written about it ?! lol


    People have started paying attention to details rather than a long mindless oratorio.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; February 06, 2017 at 01:49 PM. Reason: Irrelevant question removed.

  3. #23
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    I don't speak Romanian but as far as I can gather, the Romanians make little differentiation between the adjectives 'Roman' and 'Romanian'. I believe the words for 'Romans' and 'Romanians' are respectively 'Romani' and 'Românii', which must barely be distinguishable in speech. They literally refer to themselves as 'Romans' despite the fact they are perhaps the least Roman of all the Romance speaking countries in terms of culture and genetics. Also a good portion of Romania was never even conquered by the Roman empire, and for a long time nearly all of it lay outside the empire with the Danube as the frontier. As far as I am concerned if they want to call themselves Romans they can, but I don't see that they are much more Roman than the FYROM Macedonians are Macedonian. India is not really a proper exonym considering it derives from the term Hindustan which is widely used today in Hindi and other Northern Indian languages. Also English is one of India's official languages, but Indians choose to use the word 'India' when they could easily have changed the name to 'Bharat' even in English.
    The Romanians claim ancestry from romanized Dacians and latin colonists, both who were present on the territory of modern day Romania, in addition to that they speak a language derived from latin and have been calling themselves "ruman" centuries before emergence of Romania as a nation state. Slavic Macedonians don't live on the territory of Ancient Macedonia, therefore they don't descend from Macedonians of northern Greece, they descend from Paeonians. Modern Macedonians of northern Greece can at least, with great difficulty understand some of Ancient Macedonian, which is an attested language.


    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers II View Post
    What makes you think that Greek Macedonians are such pure Greeks? This map of Ottoman ethnicites shows northern areas of what is now Greek Macedonia (including Pella) largely populated by Bulgarians, Romanians and Turks:
    I don't consider any Greek and most of all other peoples apart from isolated tribes to be pure. People of modern day greek Macedonia descend from original ancient Macedonians, settlers from other parts of Roman Empire, slavic people, medieval balkan romance language speakers and turkish settlers. During the late Antiquity local people of modern day greek Macedonia were greek-speaking christians. During the Middle Ages the local people of modern day greek Macedonia have been partially assimilated to by slavic newcomers and later by Turks, despite linguistic changes they still remained descendants of original greek-speaking polytheists and later greek-speaking christians.

    After Greece had acquired original homeland of ancient Macedonians many slavic-speaking christians switched to greek language, for the same reasons people changed their language historically, only this time they were living in the age of nationalism, therefore the Greek State certainly did what it could to speed up assimilation and the church promoted conversion of Muslims who then also switched to greek language, if they were turkish speaking.

    The language is a factor in determining similarity between cultures, but not the only one.

    The non-minoan speaking Greeks of Crete are not Minoans, but they do descend from Minoans and that is part of their heritage;
    The non-ancient macedonian (which is known to be a greek dialect) speaking Greeks living on the territory of Ancient Macedonia are not Ancient Macedonians, but they do descend from Ancient Macedonians and that is part of their heritage;
    The non-ancient macedonian (which is known to be a greek dialect) speaking Slavs living on the territory of Ancient Paeonia are not Ancient Paeonians, but they do descend from Ancient Paeonians and not Ancient Macedonians and that is part of their heritage;

    This extremely detailed map shows the extension of Ancient Macedonia, that is Macedonia proper, before Philip II conquests and his appointment as Tagus of Thessaly: https://sites.google.com/a/umich.edu...attredirects=0

    As you can see there is a city named "Stoboi" north of it, in the region of Paionia. In this wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stobi you can see the location of Stoboi in the middle of modern day Republic of Macedonia, outside Ancient Macedonia proper, "Scupi", near modern day Skopje, the capital of Republic of Macedonia, is further to the north.
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  4. #24
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    ^ To add to that, Paeonia was finally annexed by Antigonus II in the middle of the 3rd century BC, a century after the reign of Philip II.

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    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Yeah I extensively reworked both of them, but they need more work. I did a little on the Huns page although mostly what I did was just try to keep nationalists from vandalizing it. I'd imagine you're in a similar spot with the Macedonia article.

  6. #26
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Been looking this over and the organization is excellent. Also you went into detail about the Antigonid military which... chen hao!

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  7. #27
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    Yeah I extensively reworked both of them, but they need more work. I did a little on the Huns page although mostly what I did was just try to keep nationalists from vandalizing it. I'd imagine you're in a similar spot with the Macedonia article.
    Actually, to my surprise it hasn't been vandalized much at all since I started editing. However, the week before that there was a temporary bout of edit warring between a large group of editors on competing sides of one issue (that being the insertion of a single word into one sentence in the lead: "Greek" before "kingdom"). I can only assume, since it quickly petered off and most of them went packing, that this sudden activity was somehow inspired by some sort of current event or news story about FYROM and Greece. It's perhaps a good thing it didn't happen right in the middle of my expansion and rewriting of the article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Been looking this over and the organization is excellent. Also you went into detail about the Antigonid military which... chen hao!
    I know, right? The Antigonid period military always gets ignored for obvious reasons of being overshadowed by Philip II and Alexander III's army. I was pleasantly surprise, then, to find out that someone had already written an article about the Antigonid military. It's not a particularly large or in-depth article, but at least someone else (perhaps a large group of key editors) took the time to write it. I didn't feel the need to consult it when writing my own sub-section about it in the main article for ancient Macedonia, but I at least provided a prominent link to it in several spots.

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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Yeah you can pretty much turn all of Eastern Europe and most of Mongolia into a flame war with a single factual statement about the Huns.

  9. #29
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    Yeah you can pretty much turn all of Eastern Europe and most of Mongolia into a flame war with a single factual statement about the Huns.
    Typical. Sorry to hear about your woes there!

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    2)Although you use a quite extensive and recent literature i suggest also to use NGL Hammond's tremendous works https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._G._L._Hammond
    Remember apart from scholar background he had a great first hand experience of the place itself. His suggestion that Vergina was Aigai was confirmed and his assertion that Macedonian dialect was closely related to Doric and Northwestern Greek was also supported by the discovery of Pella course tablet.
    You'll be happy to know then that I've now added several citations from Hammond and Walbank's History of Macedonia, v. III (2001). Thanks for the suggestion! His views already seem to be old-fashioned among academics in this field (especially in regards to the ambiguities around constitutional monarchy and governance), but the book I've read thus far is a good solid tome.

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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    I really need to go add more to the Hun Warfare section now that I have some good papers on Central Asian Qum Darya-Type Bows.

  11. #31
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Their language contained elements (or at least some loanwords) of Thracian as well as Illyrian and Phrygian. However, archaeological finds such as the Pella Curse Tablet indicate that they spoke a dialect of Northwestern Greek similar to the Thessalians. In either case the aristocracy and army all spoke Attic (and then Koine) Greek in Alexander's day. By the time the Romans conquered Macedonia their native dialect had been completely replaced with Koine Greek.
    I remember Herodotus suggests Macedonians were a mixture of Greeks and local population, in other words, not pure Greeks.
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    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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  12. #32
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    ^It must be why the description of Alexander's campaign against Persia was "Alexander and Greeks, apart from Lacedaemonians". I suppose there were no "macedonians" in that campaign
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  13. #33
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Roma_Victrix, just wanted to say that you inspired me to overhaul a Wikipedia article as well. While it's due to the few sources neither as long nor in-depth as yours it's still tons of work.
    However, this painting:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    is, as far as I know, from the second and not the third century BC.

  14. #34
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Roma_Victrix, just wanted to say that you inspired me to overhaul a Wikipedia article as well. While it's due to the few sources neither as long nor in-depth as yours it's still tons of work.
    Excellent! I'm very glad to hear it.

    However, this painting:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    is, as far as I know, from the second and not the third century BC.
    Interesting. The Wikimedia page says "3rd century BC" but it could be wrong. Do you have evidence to the contrary? I could certainly change the caption if you found a source that contradicts what the uploader at Wikimedia had to say. As a reminder, this work of art is housed in the Istanbul archaeological museum.

  15. #35
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Just for the sake of stirring the hornets' nest, I'm going to say something controversial: Alexander the Great, although a brilliant commander, was a lesser man compared to his father Philip II of Macedon.

  16. #36
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    As much as I want to edit Wikipedia my Jimmies would get seriously rustled if someone changed it.
    Instead I'll just make a new article. Here are some that I started.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templa...f_Oda_Nobuhide

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_In%C5%8D

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yesil_Kol_Nor
    (unfortunately I had this one done but it didn't save and I lost the damn thing)

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  17. #37
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Interesting. The Wikimedia page says "3rd century BC" but it could be wrong. Do you have evidence to the contrary? I could certainly change the caption if you found a source that contradicts what the uploader at Wikimedia had to say. As a reminder, this work of art is housed in the Istanbul archaeological museum.
    Yes, I am relying on Petros Dintis dissertation "Hellenistische Helme" ("Hellenistic Helmets"), page 144. He says it dates from the first half of the second century BC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    As much as I want to edit Wikipedia my Jimmies would get seriously rustled if someone changed it.
    Instead I'll just make a new article. Here are some that I started.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templa...f_Oda_Nobuhide

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_In%C5%8D

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yesil_Kol_Nor
    (unfortunately I had this one done but it didn't save and I lost the damn thing)
    Well, now I also must post my article (Still WIP):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alodia

    I made everything except of the last two paragraphs of chapter 1.2 and the entire chapter 1.3, but I will replace them later. Also made the map.

  18. #38
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    As much as I want to edit Wikipedia my Jimmies would get seriously rustled if someone changed it.
    Instead I'll just make a new article. Here are some that I started.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Templa...f_Oda_Nobuhide

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_In%C5%8D

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yesil_Kol_Nor
    (unfortunately I had this one done but it didn't save and I lost the damn thing)
    These are great! Good job, Oda. Don't worry; I don't think too many people are going to (significantly) mess with your articles. That would be way worse if you tried to retain a version of the page for, I don't know, (the prophet) Muhammad, Albert Einstein, or Madonna. Everyone from here to Timbuktu would be gunning to edit, distort, reword, and mess with what you provided due to the high number of page views for such articles.

    Quote Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax View Post
    Yes, I am relying on Petros Dintis dissertation "Hellenistische Helme" ("Hellenistic Helmets"), page 144. He says it dates from the first half of the second century BC.
    I personally have massive respect for masters and doctoral theses and I always take them seriously because I know that they are vetted by professors, but unfortunately I would need something published by a university press or equivalent institution, like a museum. Dissertations are usually not considered reliable sources at Wikipedia and Wikimedia, which sounds funny because most people readily assume (and in some cases rightly so) that Wikipedia itself is unreliable. However, that's just the way things work over there. If you were able to find the (possible) source that his dissertation used to come to this conclusion, then that could most certainly be cited. Is there a little footnote, perhaps?

    Well, now I also must post my article (Still WIP):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alodia

    I made everything except of the last two paragraphs of chapter 1.2 and the entire chapter 1.3, but I will replace them later. Also made the map.
    Excellent! Good work! You and Oda both.

  19. #39
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    I'm not anywhere near finishing those articles though, I only just started them. I will try to do all the ones in the campaign box for Oda Nobuhide and some of the other ones.

    @Linothorax, cool I'll check it out. Never even heard of Alodia.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  20. #40
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    Default Re: I present to you, Macedonia (ancient kingdom) on Wikipedia, my present project

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I personally have massive respect for masters and doctoral theses and I always take them seriously because I know that they are vetted by professors, but unfortunately I would need something published by a university press or equivalent institution, like a museum. Dissertations are usually not considered reliable sources at Wikipedia and Wikimedia, which sounds funny because most people readily assume (and in some cases rightly so) that Wikipedia itself is unreliable. However, that's just the way things work over there. If you were able to find the (possible) source that his dissertation used to come to this conclusion, then that could most certainly be cited. Is there a little footnote, perhaps?
    He either refers to some magazine named "AA", fig. 36, released in 1968 or to some book called "Die ostgriechischen Grabreliefs" ("Eastern-Greek funerary reliefs") by E. Pfuhl, 1979, fig. 317. Sadly I can't specify.
    The helmet itself is by the way a special variant of the Boeotian helmet, that came into existence in the late 3rd century BC and was popular until the second half of the second century BC.

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