Medieval Kingdoms Total War: Republic of Genoa

[warman222]

Tier 1(Early):

Levy Archers

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Levy Crossbowmen

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Arceri

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Balestrieri

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Levy Spearmen

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Levy Swordsmen

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Foot Berrovieri

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Lanceri

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Spadaccini

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Dismounted Guelph Men at Arms

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Foot Signori

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Mounted Crossbowmen

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Berrovieri

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Guelph Men at Arms

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Signori

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General's Bodyguard

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Tier 2(High):


Communal Arceri

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Communal Balestrieri

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Arceri

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Balestrieri

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Shiopettari

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Communal Lanceri

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Communal Swordsmen

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Foot Berrovieri

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Sestieri Lanceri

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Roconieri

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Picchieri

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Spadaccini

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Ducal Guard

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Foot Signori

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Mounted Crossbowmen

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Berrovieri

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Equitatores

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Signori

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General's Bodyguard

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Tier 3(Late):


Communal Arceri

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Communal Balestrieri

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Communal Shiopettari

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Arceri

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Balestrieri

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Shiopettari

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Communal Lanceri

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Communal Swordsmen

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Foot Berrovieri

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Sestieri Pavesari

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Roconieri

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Picchieri

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Spadaccini

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Ducal Guard

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Foot Signori

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Mounted Crossbowmen

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Berrovieri

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Equitatores

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Signori

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General's Bodyguard

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[Filips Augustus]

Awesome! I bet the Templars are jealous of the amount of red and white present in the faction .

[Slytacular]

Here is my criticism on the roster:

Tier 2 has a very 15th century looking barbute

The Italian bascinets aren't using the aventail I made specifically for them.

The tier 2 nobility and aristocratic units need aventails in general. It looks weird without them.

The heraldic transitional chainmail needs their MIPmaps recreated (run through BOB again). The texture doesn't display correctly when the camera faces the mesh from a distance.

Could use a little more diversity in colors on some units than red and white.

The names could use some help (although I'm sure you just generically named them just to get them out of the way).

Some of the white glares like Jesus. Could use a little bit of gray on the diffuse texture to dim it down.

For a faction that is pushed out in a week, Its not bad, but it could use a little more imagination and research.

[chleader]

Looks decent, but I think it could get more work. I don't think its up to the standard of the other factions. With some work it could get great ����

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Great work! I disagree with sly about the colors somewhat. Black, white, red, and yellow seem to dominate (with considerably more red and white, but that is to be expected). The uniformity isn't exactly historical, but it isn't anachronistic to the point that I think it is detrimental, plus I think it is important to have some uniformity for the purposes of the game. That being said, I know from working with Templar units that the white is a to get looking right, and I think my Templar units are still too white. The problem I found is that it's nearly impossible to get it looking right, it seems to either glares like crazy in direct light or look too gray. If there is a middle ground, I have yet to find it to my satisfaction.

I would second most everything else sly points out, though, especially the aventails. Even the poorest soldiers would likely have at least worn a hood of some kind underneath the helmet for padding, but honestly they just look strange without aventails, especially the noble units.

A few additional notes:

Most everybody in Tier 3 has WAY too much armor on. At the very least, I think the gauntlets should be removed from bowmen and gunners, who would have needed more fine motor-skills to perform their wartime functions. In most period images, everyone but the men at arms are wearing little more than a brigandine or padded jacket, maybe a breastplate in the 15th century. Even the pavesiers and certain foot soldiers are rarely depicted with full leg harness. Even this mounted man at arms from the 15th century painted by Durer only has harness covering his thigh, which was common at the time:

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As to names, perhaps some of these might be useful to you:

1. Lanceri--spearmen
2. Balestrieri--applied to crossbowmen. Balestrieri ad molinellum were heavy crossbowmen
3. Arceri--archers. Many professional archers in the 14th century in Italy were English, but they mostly disappeared by about 1430
4. Picchieri--pikemen
5. Rotularii--men who used small round shields
6. Targhieri--pavisers
7. Shiopettari--handgunners
8. Stradioti--light cavalry usually recruited from the balkans
9. Equitatores--knight's mounted assistants, equivalent to esquires or sergeants

[Vonchiefer]

On a note of the Italian States, when(if) will there be a showcase of the Papacy?

[Slytacular]

Never. We're never going to make the Papacy.

[Diocle]

Wonderful work!

Just a little note about livery colours and heraldry: even though I see a lot of good work about historical accurate aristocratic coat of arms and liveries, I would like to see just a bit more "Imperial Eagles" (Doria, Cattaneo, Giustiniani, etc. ..) and even more variety in symbols and colours.

Here a small repertory of Genoese blasons of the main aristocratic families, or families' groupings (Alberghi), of the most serene Republic of Genoa, between the XIV and the XVI centuries.

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Assereto, Cattaneo della Volta, Centurione, Chiavari, Cybo, De Fornari


Doria, Durazzo Grimaldi, Fieschi, Franchi, Fregoso, Gentile



Giustiniani, Grimaldi, Imperiale, Lercari, Lomellini, Di Negro



Negrone, Pallavicino, Pinelli, Promontorio, Sauli, Spinola.



quick link to some examples of Genoese heraldry: http://wappenwiki.org/index.php/Republic_of_Genoa

Astonishing work, + Mega rep!

[Heisenburrg]

I really like that roster, too. Yeah, some names like "Swordsmen" are a too generic, but the roster has a well rounded unit composition, some "special units" like Condottieri or Zaffones and an own colour-scheme which defines Genoa from other factions but which has also some diversity in heraldry. Can´t give much criticism, which could not be solved with some little adjustments. Furthermore; the speed at which the roster was done is breathtaking. Nice job!

[warman222]

Allow me to address some of the criticisms:

Names: I will change the names of the OP, I had them named differently in the build anyway and I'll update to the OP with Fawn's suggestions with my own naming.

Colors: I kept to the red and white because at the time idk what third color I could reasonably use besides yellow. And I REALLY didn't want to use yellow because then it would literally be Sicily's colors. That being said I got some more reference pictures from Sly and will be adding in some lighter blues to mix up the palatte.

Aventails/Helms: I will adjust these complaints asap.

@Diocle Are those imperial eagle ones Ghibelline houses? I thought Genoa was like the capital of the Guelph movements. I also can take pride in the fact I got a lot of your suggestions already in the Genoese Nobles unit:

In particular, Centurione, Chiavari, Cybo, Fieschi, Grimaldi, Lercari, Lomellini, Pinelli, Sauli I also took the following emblems courtsey of Wappenwiki(I already knew about this source ) Adorno, Ardimenti, Boccanegra, Fattinanti, Fornara, Garibaldo and Guarco


Also Fawn's "Rotularii" name reminded me of some units with those shields I forgot about so I'll look into add and adjusting this roster further.

[Diocle]

@Diocle Are those imperial eagle ones Ghibelline houses? I thought Genoa was like the capital of the Guelph movements. I also can take pride in the fact I got a lot of your suggestions already in the Genoese Nobles unit:

In particular, Centurione, Chiavari, Cybo, Fieschi, Grimaldi, Lercari, Lomellini, Pinelli, Sauli I also took the following emblems courtsey of Wappenwiki(I already knew about this source ) Adorno, Ardimenti, Boccanegra, Fattinanti, Fornara, Garibaldo and Guarco

Ghibelline? OMG no, they aren't!



.. maybe just .. White Guelphs? Actually the fascination for the Imperial Eagles never left the aristocratic families in Italy (and Germany is very close ..).
In any case my post was not a criticism, I'm totally mesmerized by the quality of your work, so, to look impartial, I had to invent something resembling to a criticism!
Forgive me, and keep up the good work!

A good site of Genoese reenactors: "Balestrieri del Mandraccio" ('Mandraccio's crossbowmen', Mandraccio is an ancient part of the medieval habour of Genoa).

Few pics from their site:

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Side note about helmets: I think one of the most widespread helmets in Italy in those years was the "Chapeau de fer":



Just a small note about armour and urban levies: Italian towns were very wealthy during the Reinassance, so, the Communal militia could afford the best weapons and armours, being formed by citizens organized in "arti" (art and crafts associations) and free companies based on professional belonging. Instead, the feudal levies coming from the feudal estates were poor armed peasants, so, for example, the Guelph militias were expected to be armed and dressed with the best equipment we can expect for that age, instead the Ghibelline forces, based on feudal aristocracy and coming from countryside, were poorly armed and equipped, if compared to their Communal counterpart.

[warman222]

Ghibelline? OMG no, they aren't!
.. maybe just .. White Guelphs? Actually the fascination for the Imperial Eagles never left the aristocratic families in Italy (and Germany is very close ..).

That must of been confusing to some involved. I thought it was like a Guelph thing where they had the Anjou/French stuff on the top of their shields(see the Guelph MAA units for my depiction of that). I thought this was a similar thing. Nice reenactment photos btw, some of the Genoese units have that same "Chapeau de fer" helm already.

[Wallachian]

Just a small note about armour and urban levies: Italian towns were very wealthy during the Reinassance, so, the Communal militia could afford the best weapons and armours, being formed by citizens organized in "arti" (art and crafts associations) and free companies based on professional belonging. Instead, the feudal levies coming from the feudal estates were poor armed peasants, so, for example, the Guelph militias were expected to be armed and dressed with the best equipment we can expect for that age, instead the Ghibelline forces, based on feudal aristocracy and coming from countryside, were poorly armed and equipped, if compared to their Communal counterpart.

True the communal militias were well equipped but I really don't think they all wore heavy plate armour. Happy to accept any sources which state that they did but as far as I know full plate armour was only really used by men at arms and professional soldiers. I mean even the re-enactors that you posted do not all wear breastplates but a mix of chainmail, brigantines and plate (I know they are XIVth century ones but still).

Also, question for you, when did the Ghibelline/Guelph conflict become irrelevant? Was it still relevant in the XVth century? Or is it more of a XII-XIIIth century thing?

[Wallachian]

I agree with the previous posts in regards to the exaggerated armour of the troops. Generally the Italian troops were quite lightly armoured. Most common armour was the brigantine and

This is how a typical pavesari would look like

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Other images of typical 15th century Italians

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A breastplate would be the most a regular foot soldier would have and even those ones were quite rare.

[anders99]

the Archers from tier 2 and 3 look very well equipped, are they a professional unit?

[Slytacular]

@Wallachian, I think how common certain armour is, would always be up to debate. 13th century is supposed to mark as the time in Medieval history when armour becomes a common feature on the battlefield. Then I see modern professors make skeptical comments about how often they see chainmail in the 13th century. Look at any medieval illustration, and armour seems plentiful and almost a regular thing. 15th century also marks the time when its easier to purchase a breastplate over chainmail.

On my trip to Washington D.C. I took photos of the National Gallery of Art which has lots of 14th-15th century Italian paintings. I made a lot of the security guards nervous from how close I was to the paintings.

http://www.warfare.altervista.org/15...o_dAntonio.htm

Here is one of the pieces Druzhina has managed to upload for me.

[Wallachian]

I don't doubt that breastplates and heavy armour was used. But I think sometimes we have to keep in mind that art may not 100% portray reality. Fully armoured men at arms were usually professional soldiers or nobles.

Common soldiers and footmen were usually urban or peasant militias which rarely had the funds to buy heavy armour. Even in the painting you provided the infantrymen do not wear armour but they wear arming doublets which were very common in Italy at the time

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Beautiful painting by the way

[Visarion]

You are forgeting the fact that Genoa, Venice, Amalfi and Pisa were somewhat city states, ports like the ancient Greek Megaras with lots of Emporions so most likely they had the core made up of citizen nobles, merchent mercenaries and burghers.

Edit: Anyway some diversity wouldn't hurt like that black armor The Fawn Rescuer made for Toulouse.

[Wallachian]

Well that doesn't have any bearing, most Italian city states used very similar militias and mercenary armies during this time period.

The most common piece of armour among the Italian city states infantry was the arming doublet

The ratio of breastplates was quite low among these infantry troops (I would say like 1 to 10)

Artistic impressions

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And some reenactors

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The work put in here is fantastic but some units just have a bit too much armour especially the archers, the swordsmen and the pavise spearmen which i presume represent Italian communal militias.

[warman222]

Alright I updated the OP with some new screens. Showing the additional blue colors I added, I lightened the armors on many of the tier 3 units. I added the aventails, adjusted the names a bit and added some additional communal units that are gonna function as militia/levy units for tiers 2 and 3. I'm still not done, I really want to add a rotaluri shield unit once Sly makes the model. Also naming is still a WIP.