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Thread: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

  1. #1
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Before you mods get itchy trigger fingers, notice how this thread is about Trump's (temporary) immigration and refugee ban, not about president Donald Trump or his policies more generally speaking. DO NOT merge this thread into the general one about Donald Trump and his presidency.

    Trump's immigration ban: Does he have the legal authority to block refugees?

    President Trump suspended the U.S. refugee program for 120 days, banned all immigrants from seven Muslim countries for 90 days and ordered his administration to develop "extreme vetting" measures for immigrants from those countries to keep "radical Islamic terrorists" out of the United States.
    As the USA Today article explains, those seven countries are Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Sudan, Somalia and Yemen.

    Even though they are on the State Department's list of state sponsors of terrorism, for the life of me I can't think of why he decided to add Iran to this list. It's a well known fact that global Jihadism targeting the West is a Sunni religious phenomenon. Iran is majority Shia and the small amount of Sunnis who live there have not conducted terrorist acts against Westerners, from what I can remember. There was a recent concern in Iran where Iranian authorities cracked down on a group in Kermanshah province trying to recruit ethnically Kurdish (and religiously Sunni) fighters for ISIS, but I don't think that has anything to do with Trump's decision.

    So what do you guys think? Do some of the countries on this list make any sense? Does it potentially block a bunch of people who shouldn't be blocked at all? Such as translators who worked closely and tirelessly with the United States military in Iraq. A similar episode happened with Afghanistan under Obama's watch, where translators whose lives were in danger so long as the Taliban could reach them needed sanctuary in the United States, but did not receive it. I bring that up just in case some people here think I'm making a partisan or polemic point against the Don himself, Donald J. Trump.



    To me, it does make sense to include Libya, Syria, and Yemen, where there are ongoing insurgencies and radical movements recruiting the locals. Sudan is a bit more curious. I'm assuming he included Somalia due to the Sunni terrorist organization Al-Shabaab, but then again I don't really understand his reasoning here either. Al-Shabaab hasn't really posed a threat to the West; neither have their sub-Saharan brothers over in Nigeria, Boko Haram. The only Sunni terrorist organizations that have managed to directly attack the West in recent memory are al-Qaeda and ISIS (or if you're an old fart who has a longer memory, the Black September Palestinian terrorist group who killed athletes in the 1972 Olympics staged in Munich, Germany). As for the Shia, there hasn't been one since the 1980s when Hezbollah in Lebanon was able to kill over 200 US marines during Reagan's watch. And that didn't even occur in the West; that was in Beirut, Lebanon.

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    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    It must be a coincidence that this ban doesn't include any of the middle eastern countries Trump has businesses in.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...t-of-interest/
    ttt
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Note: he's also blocked people that already had visas and green cards. That's probably what will give him the most trouble in my armchair lawyering opinion.
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    The terrorists of ISIS will be laughing their evil heads off that Trump now has America doing their work for them.
    “My grandad always said, "You should never judge a book by its cover." And it's for that reason that he lost his job as chair of the British Book Cover Awards panel.”
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    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by the_mango55 View Post
    It must be a coincidence that this ban doesn't include any of the middle eastern countries Trump has businesses in.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...t-of-interest/
    Exactly.

    Green card included in Trump Muslim ban,
    This means that people who are otherwise settled in the US but are abroad – on holiday or business trips, for example – will not be allowed back in.

    the ban does not apply to the following Muslim-majority countries (where Trump – conveniently – has business interests):
    · UAE
    · Saudi Arabia
    · Turkey
    · Egypt
    ----
    Donald Trump's seven-country Muslim ban sparks protests | The ...

    Many foreign leaders said they were aghast over the new US policy. Iran answered in kind by saying it would ban Americans from entering the country, calling Trump’s action insulting.
    ---

    François Hollande: Trump administration is encouraging extremism
    French president calls on European countries to stand ‘stand together’ at meeting of leaders in Lisbon.
    French president François Hollande has said that the Trump administration was encouraging “populism and even extremism“, as he and fellow southern European leaders urged unity to face an increasingly uncertain world.
    “We have to stand together in Europe,” Hollande said during a meeting in Lisbon on Saturday.
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    So what do you guys think?
    I seem to remember most of the 9/11 hijackers being from a country that's not on the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Sudan is a bit more curious.
    Sudan is ruled by a genocidal authoritarian Islamist regime which has clear ties to Islamist terrorism and no relations with us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I'm assuming he included Somalia due to the Sunni terrorist organization Al-Shabaab, but then again I don't really understand his reasoning here either. Al-Shabaab hasn't really posed a threat to the West
    How many terror attacks in the US have been carried out by Somalis? I can think of two without looking it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    As for the Shia, there hasn't been one since the 1980s when Hezbollah in Lebanon was able to kill over 200 US marines during Reagan's watch. And that didn't even occur in the West; that was in Beirut, Lebanon.
    Hezbollah has been involved in terror attacks around the world against Israeli and Jewish targets. They don't seem to care what country they're in. The 2012 Burgas bus bombing and 1994 AMIA bombing as examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_mango55 View Post
    It must be a coincidence that this ban doesn't include any of the middle eastern countries Trump has businesses in.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2...t-of-interest/
    Or because they are supposedly our allies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Has Trump banned skittles yet? I think they've caused more deaths (not from poison, from choking) than Muslim refugees in the US.

    Crazy overblown response to a problem that has not manifested yet. The 9/11 bombers came from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt, all off the list, this policy has nothing to do with reality.
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    It's such a pity; except for 9/11, most of the terrorist attacks have been from native borne U.S. Citizens, and not just Muslims. Immigration is what made this country what it is. It is unfortunate that now, Donald J. Drumpf, whose great grandfather came over here as an immigrant, is going to destroy the very fabric of United States ingenuity.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Or because they are supposedly our allies.
    Amazing allies, "we misled you"
    How the Saudis Are Coming Clean on Funding Terrorism - Politico

    In the past, when we raised the issue of funding Islamic extremists with the Saudis, all we got were denials. This time, in the course of meetings with King Salman, Crown Prince Nayef, Deputy Crown Mohammad Bin Salman and several ministers, one top Saudi official admitted to me, "We misled you".
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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I seem to remember most of the 9/11 hijackers being from a country that's not on the list.
    Yep, not just Saudia Arabia either, but also Egypt and the UAE escaped these bans.

    Sudan is ruled by a genocidal authoritarian Islamist regime which has clear ties to Islamist terrorism and no relations with us.
    Well, there's that, but it's not exporting terrorists at the moment, is it? Perhaps it is justified, but I'd need to see something a bit more substantial to warrant this.

    How many terror attacks in the US have been carried out by Somalis? I can think of two without looking it up.
    Come to think of it, wasn't there one just last year on a college campus in...Ohio was it? The guy who used a car and knife instead of a gun, shot dead immediately by campus police (I'm pulling all of this from memory, not looking it up). In other words, you might be right about that. So many college-related incidents happen it is hard to recall all of them.

    Hezbollah has been involved in terror attacks around the world against Israeli and Jewish targets. They don't seem to care what country they're in. The 2012 Burgas bus bombing and 1994 AMIA bombing as examples.
    Oh yeah! I forgot about those. Good point.

    Or because they are supposedly our allies.
    He's clearly targeting countries that he knows won't make too much of a diplomatic rumble in the US or abroad.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    I'm sure that Trump will go after Saudis as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by jockmcplop View Post
    The terrorists of ISIS will be laughing their evil heads off that Trump now has America doing their work for them.
    By impeding their ability to attack US? I think this statement would apply better to former president Barack Obama, who ended up "accidentally" providing assistance to ISIS and other terrorist groups in Syria.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    It's such a pity; except for 9/11, most of the terrorist attacks have been from native borne U.S. Citizens, and not just Muslims. Immigration is what made this country what it is. It is unfortunate that now, Donald J. Drumpf, whose great grandfather came over here as an immigrant, is going to destroy the very fabric of United States ingenuity.
    Except, that, you know, those immigrants were of European origin, a lot if not most of them were educated, etc.
    In this situation, we are talking about immigration from countries with a completely different cultural and social background, with strong presence of rape culture, absence of women's rights and LGBT rights, no freedom of speech, etc.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; January 28, 2017 at 05:06 PM.

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    Harith's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    On the good side, at least some folks will wake up from the meme "it's the land of the free" and realize that, unless you fight for your freedom and dignity, you will be stomped on regardless.

    Since this, I assume, will be a contentious topic, I would like to see if any keen members have a list of all "terrorists" acts committed by people form these countries in the US. I'll see if I can find anything, but it will probably take me a while.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jockmcplop View Post
    The terrorists of ISIS will be laughing their evil heads off that Trump now has America doing their work for them.
    Bingo.
    Iran suggests banning US citizens in response to President Trump's ...
    "Despite the claims of combating terrorism and keeping American people safe, it will be recorded in history as a big gift to extremists and their supporters.” the statement said.
    ------
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    ...absence of women's rights and LGBT rights...,
    Hmm, why I am I posting this?
    2017 Women's March - Wikipedia
    Absence of LGBT page from White House site worrying sign
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 28, 2017 at 05:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    strong presence of rape culture, absence of women's rights and LGBT rights, no freedom of speech, etc.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/u...ript.html?_r=0
    rape culture

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-01-2...-world/8206444

    Women's rights

    http://www.salon.com/2016/06/13/trum...tials_revoked/
    Freedom of speech


    I can't believe I just posted something from Salon.
    Shoot me now.

    The point still stands.


    Anyway anyone who supports this is just in the wrong. The human effect of this kind of rushed, poorly written, badly thought out legislation is catastrophic. There are people who have lived in the US for years who are completely unable to resume their lives because they were on holiday when it happened. Sorry guys, you were visiting Iran, your previous life is now on hold for a few months.
    People are getting turned back to Canada because one of their parents is Iranian. I'm no SJW but how the is that not racism. Pure racism enacted and endorsed by the President of the USA.

    This is Trump's first big screw up, believe me, and it needs to be reversed pretty quickly before it all goes very wrong.
    Last edited by jockmcplop; January 28, 2017 at 05:41 PM.
    “My grandad always said, "You should never judge a book by its cover." And it's for that reason that he lost his job as chair of the British Book Cover Awards panel.”
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jockmcplop View Post
    http://www.salon.com/2016/06/13/trum...tials_revoked/
    Freedom of speech


    I can't believe I just posted something from Salon.
    Shoot me now.

    The point still stands.
    I can't believe you posted THAT....do you know how freedom of speech works? Your point has no standing.

    But regardless...



    So what's next?
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  16. #16
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    What's next? a pertinent question - this is not going to end well...
    Trump's immigration ban sends shockwaves - CNNPolitics.com

    At the Cairo International Airport, Egyptian officials on Saturday began to turn back US-bound refugees and citizens of the seven countries now barred from entering the US.
    "This is a new era we are witnessing," a Cairo airport official said.
    The executive order is causing a really destructive impact on the Arab and Muslim community and on the Iranian community in the US.

    A senior White House official told CNN on Friday that the list of seven countries whose citizens are now banned from the US was likely just a starting point.
    The official said the administration would be "very aggressive" as it weighs how many more countries to add to the list
    .
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    Costin_Razvan's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    This is the first salvo on the open border folks. See how Silicon Valley is howling over having their source of cheap labor closed off.
    "It's bizarre though. Donald Trump, an ageing, orange skinned reality TV star with a history of selling steaks and conning people, a trophy wife and one of the most fragile egos I've seen pretty much just destroyed the head of the interventionist faction in the US State apparatus, Victoria Nuland, after literally becoming President of the United states. We must live in one of the more interesting timelines."

    "The Powell Doctrine is the bible of every foreign policy thinker."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine

  18. #18

    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Costin_Razvan View Post
    This is the first salvo on the open border folks. See how Silicon Valley is howling over having their source of cheap labor closed off.
    What's your opinion of all the US citizens now locked out of their entire lives?
    Shouldn't have been so brown, eh?
    “My grandad always said, "You should never judge a book by its cover." And it's for that reason that he lost his job as chair of the British Book Cover Awards panel.”
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  19. #19
    Costin_Razvan's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jockmcplop View Post
    What's your opinion of all the US citizens now locked out of their entire lives?
    Shouldn't have been so brown, eh?
    If they are citizens they have the right to a court, that's what CAIR and the ACLU are doing: Moving to protect American citizens who are affected by this. As for residents that's another matter.

    Meanwhile

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/n...tion/96723084/

    Really get off your race baiting BS, this is about open borders. Trump merely framed it as national security because the President is still God Emperor Bush power level when it comes to national security.
    "It's bizarre though. Donald Trump, an ageing, orange skinned reality TV star with a history of selling steaks and conning people, a trophy wife and one of the most fragile egos I've seen pretty much just destroyed the head of the interventionist faction in the US State apparatus, Victoria Nuland, after literally becoming President of the United states. We must live in one of the more interesting timelines."

    "The Powell Doctrine is the bible of every foreign policy thinker."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine

  20. #20

    Default Re: Donald Trump's Immigration and Refugee Ban

    Well forget the ideological stuff for a minute, any who is celebrating this is celebrating the absolute incompetence of Trump's administration. They have completely screwed this up beyond belief. When its something this important it needs to be thought out properly, the consequences assessed. That clearly hasn't happened here. Either that or Trump intended all of this chaos to ensue, which means he's a complete maniac.
    Incompetent, or a maniac?
    Maybe both.

    Canada is telling is citizens who have dual citizenship with one of those seven countries they have NO IDEA what Trump's legislation means for them, because the US hasn't communicated anything with Canada about it.
    Astounding.
    Last edited by jockmcplop; January 28, 2017 at 06:12 PM.
    “My grandad always said, "You should never judge a book by its cover." And it's for that reason that he lost his job as chair of the British Book Cover Awards panel.”
    Stewart Lee

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