CALexit initiative - state constitutional amendment to allow secession suggested

[alhoon]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...te-nation.html

The gist: Californians that want to secede from the USA moved to the first step: They will start gathering signatures in order to put in the ballot a request to change California's constitution. If it is placed on the ballot and then it is voted, the road (from California's side) will be clear for a plebiscite to vote Leave or Stay within the USA. The proposal doesn't mention Trump.


My opinion: I find it horrid and appalling that 1/3 Californians put state (and party) interest above country. A country, mind you, that has given them so many opportunities. California has a great deal of influence in the USA. And frankly, they remembered it now that they lost an election. Losing an election is not a reason to secede. That's ... "Screw you guys, I go home" kind of tantrum that I'm used to see from Cartman, not the biggest state of the USA.
I mean, what crap is that: "In our view, the United States of America represents so many things that conflict with Californian values, and our continued statehood means California will continue subsidizing the other states to our own detriment, and to the detriment of our children,"
You don't like "so many things" (i.e. the president) in your country? It's a democracy and you are the most populous state. Mobilize, organize, don't put corrupt old ladies in the ballot and change them! You FIX your country when you see something broken, you don't leave it.

[Acco]

What if I told you that the Yes California movement had the approval of Vladimir Putin? Californian independence is an idiotic and traitorous notion, no question about it.

[Condottiere 40K]

Prior to Nine Eleven, there were noises that California split, and the entire Northwest secede, which I think was both White Nationalism and a reaction to the Clintons.

If a Progressive follows Trump, it will die down.

[Costin_Razvan]

It's nothing new, long before the election support was 20%. Now it's 30%.

[alhoon]

That's why it's not in the elections thread. The "I don't like it, I secede!" is temper tantrum and says a lot about the people that want to secede instead of try to fix their country.
And again, that country is not Nigeria or Ghana or any other country with high poverty and internal strife, it's the freaking USA.

I am beyond words, I literally can't believe, that 1/3 Californians wants to stab their country in the back at a time they believe their country is at a low point BTW, and go their way. Whether their country is indeed a ship getting water or not is beyond the matter. The mentality of "I run for the lifeboats" instead of "I work the pumps" is ... I mean... there are no words.

The grandfathers of those people enlisted enthusiastically in a war to go fight somewhere in Northern Africa and all the way around the Pacific when they (rightly) perceived their country was in trouble. Their great grandfathers were hunting rats in the Great Depression to eat, probably complained a lot about the politicians and the evil system and all, but they didn't think to secede.

[the_mango55]

Eh it's just one of the self important larger states getting all puffed up and cocky again, we have them on both sides.

Texas has been making noise about this for the past 8 years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8d6d310d9ad9
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/...-hillary-wins/

Now that a Republican is president California is doing it.

Nothing will come of it.

[Gaidin]

Eh it's just one of the self important larger states getting all puffed up and cocky again, we have them on both sides.

Texas has been making noise about this for the past 8 years.

Texas has been making that noise for a lot longer than eight years and pretty much has some wonky culturally ingrained thing there. The amount of noise you hear just depends on who's president at the time.

[Costin_Razvan]

They would have to get permission from the Federal Government and no one will give them that.

[alhoon]

I know Texas tried to pull that too, and I know they won't do it.
I learned something though; I learned that too many Californians are traitors.

[Iskar]

While I personally do not think CA should secede I do not think either that it is that easy to call "Treason!" on this.

The issue here is "statehood". US member states are not comparable to the dependent regions or federal countries of European states. They have legitimacy of their own and that is (to my chagrin and continued bewilderment) reflected in their election system for the Presidential election, where electors are allocated for population plus a fix number per state. This addition of a fixed number per state "overrepresents" the voters in less populated states compared to the inhabitants of highly populated ones - in terms of a democracy consisting of only one state holding primary legitimacy (like Germany, France, Greece, etc.). However, in the US the primary legitimacy resides with the member states, and the federal level holds its authority and legitimacy (at least historically) by their permission. As such, as long as electoral college votes are skewed in favour of states rather than pure vote numbers, one has to acknowledge at least the possibility of legitimate secession as based on legitimate independent statehood - both are two sides of the same coin.

Introduce actually proportional voting throughout the entire US and you can legitimately cry "Treaon", keep it as it is and you have to tolerate such thoughts.

[alhoon]

in terms of a democracy consisting of only one state holding primary legitimacy (like Germany, France, Greece, etc.).

But Germany is also a federal republic, and while I believe, I truly believe there are people in Hannover or Bavaria that want to secede, they don't reach 1/3. For states like the UK and Scotland \ Wales, those people were independent, different nationalities before conquest\union with England. Similar case with Catalonia.
But California? They were frankly not there 300 years ago. They were in the same "ethnogenesis" that made USA what they are. You don't have Saxons and Welsh living under Normans.
For Catalonia... I don't actually know if they are significantly different people with the other Spanish or not to say.

But back to Californians: They come from the same stock of pilgrims and European immigrants that made USA.

[athanaric]

They're welcome to try, lol. We all know how the last war of secession went in North America.

[Iskar]

I doubt California would be stupid enough to introduce secession by shelling Fort Sumter - or the Yuma Marine Corps base for a more appropriate analogue.

[athanaric]

I doubt California would be stupid enough to introduce secession by shelling Fort Sumter - or the Yuma Marine Corps base for a more appropriate analogue.

That doesn't mean that the federal administration would let them go, though. Doing so would be a fatal signal to all enemies and rivals of the US.

Im fact, I think I'm sticking with this analogy. California and the CSA have a lot in common.

In Germany the overarching state preceded the federal countries. There was recently a verdict by the Constitutional Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) that the federal countries held no legitimacy of their own and only derived it from being part of the state as a whole. (Bavaria as a historical thing has existed before, for sure, but not as the legal entity "Bavaria" as constituted after the war.)

There's also the point that German states subsume different ethnicities and traditional regions. If, for example, Bavaria were to secede, the Franks in turn might want to seced from Bavaria.
Although maybe it'd be best if Germany as a whole seceded from Berlin, and joined Poland or Denmark. Maybe leave Berlin with territories such as Bremen and the Ruhrgebiet, which could form a new and exciting failed state called New Somalia or something like that, governed by the Green Party.

[Love Mountain]

That doesn't mean that the federal administration would let them go, though. Doing so would be a fatal signal to all enemies and rivals of the US.

Im fact, I think I'm sticking with this analogy. California and the CSA have a lot in common.

You're gonna have to elaborate that, because as far as I can tell the CSA and California have almost nothing in common.

[athanaric]

You're gonna have to elaborate that, because as far as I can tell the CSA and California have almost nothing in common.

Do I? They're both agrarian powers ruled by a privileged class of rich, lazy white people with a sense of entitlement and religious conviction, who will fight tooth and nail to keep their privileges, one of which is the privilege to employ (wage) slaves, in California's case illegal immigrants.

California could be economically self sufficient, and annex Arizona and Nevada.

And get nuked?

[Love Mountain]

Do I? They're both agrarian powers ruled by a privileged class of rich, lazy white people with a sense of entitlement and religious conviction, who will fight tooth and nail to keep their privileges, one of which is the privilege to employ (wage) slaves, in California's case illegal immigrants.

Their economies are nothing alike. While agriculture is a massive industry for California, it makes a tiny percentage of their GDP in comparison to everything else. Californian economy is characterized by its extreme diversity, highest taxes, some of the highest regulations, and some of the highest costs of living in metro areas out of the country. Social mobility in California is also quite good, and I'd say its miles better than its peers who live along the Southern border. In fact, I'd much rather be an illegal in California than in any other border state. As far as being poor, I'd also much rather live in California than any other border state, considering their high minimum wage that was raised to 10.50$ on Jan 1, 2017, and their high levels of spending on social welfare.

So again, in what way is California similar to the CSA? If anything, California is the prototypical "model society" envisioned in the North during the abolitionist movement. It is industrialized, it has a highly motivated work force with much higher levels of social mobility than its border state peers, on average. The situation California finds itself in, if we are to use a civil war analogy, is that of a Southern supremacy trying to force the Union to adopt nationwide slavery laws and California wanting to do no part with that by declaring secession.

Quite frankly, I don't blame California for loudly beating their chests saying Trump is not their President. Unfortunately for them, we are all part of the same country and we have to live in it for better or for worse. Same goes for Republican morons who kept whining about their gun rights for some reasons.

[Iskar]

In Germany the overarching state preceded the federal countries. There was recently a verdict by the Constitutional Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) that the federal countries held no legitimacy of their own and only derived it from being part of the state as a whole. (Bavaria as a historical thing has existed before, for sure, but not as the legal entity "Bavaria" as constituted after the war.)

The UK is a different case as there you really have independent nations subsumed under one crown/state. It is in this much mor similar to the US and while of course the American states do not have much of a history or distinct ethnic identity to boast, that is ultimately irrelevant to questions of democratic legitimacy. For that only the constitutional framework and the politicially articulated will of the populace count.

[Big War Bird]

Sounds like the kind of thing that comes back around in the future and bits in the ass the people who thought it was a good idea at the time.

[Condottiere 40K]

I wouldn't worry, there's no underground railroad in California.