[SUBMOD: a Slower Paced DeI Campaign] TESTUDO v.1.7 + Custom Packs [upd: aug.09/20] - OUTDATED

[Falco]

Woohoo can't wait!

[Jake Armitage]

eh... it will take some time for sure

But I would like to release a newer and more polished 1.7 version pretty much soon
I finally played until 4th imperium level (350 turns with huge pergamon) and I've tracked down things that need to be fixed/rebalanced, which is a good thing.

If someone has some reports (for a confrontation/implementation) I would be glad to hear them

[Falco]

Good stuff, testudo is amazin.

[gnosis89]

Look for those scripts ! I guess the idea behind them are useful to incorporate into Testudo, I think. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...chtext=mk+1212. I mean the first two,
- Annex Vassals: Diplomatically annex vassals who have been subjugated for 10 or more turns.
- Buffer States: Release vassal buffer states from conquered territories where your direct control may be tenuous.
Also, reading inside other .lua ones, ex. population.lua, they introduce more concepts related to populations (https://github.com/DETrooper/MK1212S...on_economy.lua). Excellent ideas and much more to come as it is wrote to coming soon.

This would be amazing in Testudo....(especially the buffer state). This, with the limited AI diplo options based on distance and finally a trade regions would be INCREDIBLE.

I think I've thanked you 1,000 times now Jake for all the wonderful work/implementation, but I shall now have thanked you 1,001.

[Jake Armitage]

I really don't think I'll return to that limited "diplo based on distance" thing.
Not soon at least, I got bored by it.
It's not so needed actually, diplomacy seems to be pretty much balanced anyway to me (and there are other things I still plan to insert here, for diplo).
More importantly, I'm pretty sure its lags would be really too many to be actually bearable.

[gnosis89]

That's alright, so long as the trade regions makes it in....

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah
Now I'm waiting for some vanilla DeI fixes kam and dresden are working on, after that I will probably release a last 1.7 version.
And then start seriously working on the spawn buttons thing which will be fundamental for a complex trade region system.

[ForVictory]

Can you add this mod to the Steam workshop?

[Falco]

Can you add this mod to the Steam workshop?

Jake's already said that's not going to happen I do believe.

[Jake Armitage]

Reason is that, if you count how many packs testudo has... how many steam pages would I have to use?
50?
This will also make things much less clear for users, believe me, mostly if they are JUST steam users, you know...
The technical reason above + the fact that I don't give a poop about steam nor advertise things around...
Well.. yeah, I don't really think I'll ever do that but you may never tell...

You have tons of simple methods for having mods working
1) steam manager, not always but most of the times
2) mitch mod manager
3) wh2 mod manager
4) script method which is 100% easy and secure

[justlol]

some things about politics:

politics are the main reason I got this mod cause with vanilla DEI it seemed all i did was embezzle money which was basically just free money

1) what is the point of politics in this version?
2) I see half the political options are [removed], that means they just arent enabled in this version right?
3) "FAMILY CLIENTELISM" tooltip is cut off cause the UI isn't scaled big enough to show all the effects and requirements
4) As Rome even when I disband my leader general i cannot use most of the political options because it says my character is "currently in command". Is this a faction leader thing or a bug?

Also , this isnt really the fault of this submod but 12tpy is completely broken with rebellions because it takes you so long to get to the city the rebellion spawned next to (even if you know its coming and try to position your Army centrally, like after a conquest), while the rebel army still grows by 3 units per turn. So they will attack the city before you get there, or keep growing to an even larger size, and of course you can't recruit your own units without at least 50% movement points.

[Jake Armitage]

1) check infos here https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...-upd-jun-09-19
2) [removed] are just removals of some vanilla texts which are no more needed
3) eh well it happens
4) that's vanilla, not moddable

If it's the first time you play testudo then you'll need to understand the pace and build some more experience by playing it.
Rebellions are easily avoidable, if you are having some it means you are rushing too quickly and leave uncontrolled lands behind you, you must work on PO through agents, generals, the civil admin intrigue and taxes.
I honestly never had a single rebellion in any testudo campaign, and I always play the most difficult version, so it's just a matter of finding the correct way to avoid them.

[justlol]

thanks for the reply!
1. so basically like vanilla.. keep your party influence in the sweet spot of 30-40% to keep a balance of research/PO/loyalty/upkeep etc positives vs negatives, using actions to do so if needed, and also keep loyalty up to avoid a civil war (no PO effects, right?)
just a couple of questions about some of the new actions you added:
-civic administration & military admistration - both cost a bunch of money. and have opposite penalties/negatives. I can see civic being useful in an emergency if you need to quickly increase PO to prevent a rebellion, or need some more food cause youre in the negative. military admistration dont really see much use
-economic stimulation is a one time investment of gold and loyalty that permanently increases your economic trust (so a small % increase in tax rate/loyalty/PO) etc , like a long term money sink but you'll eventually make back your investment?
4. nm it seems to be working now, maybe i disbanded the wrong general and not my faction leader.
yeah if you follow the standard strategy as Rome of queing up your buildings and moving one of your armies (while training some more units so you need to keep taxes high) to take Arretium in the first few turns and unite Latinum ASAP and then immediately head south to hold off Epiros (so you cant exempt Rome for taxes ) you will reach -100 PO within a few turns due to the -20 conquest malus . theres probably a different opening game you can play but its whatever

also dont know if its your mod or the 12tpy thing but i thought i would be safe raiding just inside the border of Taras but much to my surprise their army is able to go from the middle of the Ionian Sea to well into Cosentia in 1 turn, whereas it would take me more than 2 turns even with a 1 unit army. Is this normal somehow or is the AI getting some kind of boost?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Jake Armitage]

1. more or less yeah
- military administration: gives you 1 recruitment point more in the province and lowers recruitment costs, I actually use it pretty much when I'm in need
- economic stimulation: I tend to use it pretty much (no more than once per year/every 12 turns), being at good trust level will always favour you
4. I think that political actions can't be used by any just disbanded character, as the vanilla description says he's just travelling

opening is correct, tax level isn't, lower it and you won't have problems (don't spend too much money on buildings at start, you'll do that later)

that's a vanilla issue, known from start and unmoddable (tried many ways). When a unit is inside city range (I've lowered them) it won't spend movement and when it goes from sea to land its movement points will be refilled
there is nothing doable here, except lowering strat movement and city ranges, things I already did. Try with vanilla DeI and you'll see that thing is much worse

[justlol]

thanks, so that issue is only for the AI right



also the replenishment system seems very opaque/hard to understand for me at least and the tooltips are vague

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. for example, during winter none of my troops in Italia were replenishing. even in the Replenish stance, even when garissoned. in Rome where i had a general unit it was replenishing fine whether garissoned or not

2. next turn, all the units in the lower army (the 4 star general) started replenishing but only 3 units in the higher army with the 2-star general were replenishing. Moving the 4 star general into the city more than doubled his replenishment rate. Replenish stance seems to have no effect one way or another.

3. Next turn the 2 star general army still only has 3 units replenishing. Moving him into the city makes all his units replenish properly. Moving the 4 star general out of the city stops all replenishment, despite being able to slowly passively replenish even outside the city only 1 turn before

I just dont understand any of this. I gather that its not a simple on-off switch and there's various bonuses and negatives that can push your replenishment rate to 0% or below, but if anything the 2 star general has higher total bonuses (mainly from the "TESTUDO Army precentage and culture" part which I don't understand, his percentage is 40/44% and he has a higher bonus to replenishment than the other guy, but really both have a very similar mix of roman/italian/mercenary troops). Even then, it doesnt make any sense that only some units in a stack would be regenerating and not all or none.

also, what does Food have to do with all this? I'm negative in food production but I still have plenty of stores left and I assume only global food supply matters right. Turning off taxes in Italia also makes no difference to replenishment btw

thanks for your patience

[Cool_Ranch]

Hey Jake, do you happen to have a beta patch for the population script fixes or something? I'd be happy to test it out. Been wanting to fire up my rome campaign again and actually have some proles to recruit.

[Jake Armitage]

replenishment is mostly similar to DeI except for
1) numbers have been lowered so yeah, sometimes you won't be able to replenish
2) you should be able to replenish even if you lack a pop type. In DeI, if you have sufficient pop for the specific class but you don't have enough of another one then you can't replenish.
3) replenishment effects come from many places in testudo

So, there is no technical issue.
If you can't then you just can't, you'll have to wait

If you have negative food or you have a disease/pestilence/whatever you won't replenish anything (that's for DeI and Rome2 vanilla too)

[justlol]

replenishment is mostly similar to DeI except for
1) numbers have been lowered so yeah, sometimes you won't be able to replenish
2) you should be able to replenish even if you lack a pop type. In DeI, if you have sufficient pop for the specific class but you don't have enough of another one then you can't replenish.
3) replenishment effects come from many places in testudo

So, there is no technical issue.
If you can't then you just can't, you'll have to wait

If you have negative food or you have a disease/pestilence/whatever you won't replenish anything (that's for DeI and Rome2 vanilla too)

thanks. it appears i was confused by the fact that a lot of these replenishment effects dont kick in until the next turn. ie, you set an army to the replenish stance and/or move them into a city (i assume this stacks) and nothing happens, but next turn it shows them replenishing properly

i agree not being able to replenish an army cause 1 unit doesnt have its pop type as in vanilla DeI is a bit rough. I've seen people complaining about that here and someone saying its hard coded into the engine that replenishment is all or nothing , which is why i'm still confused why sometimes only a few units are replenishing (albeit very slowly).

just a couple more things:

-people saying 12tpy is slower and more 'realistic' in limiting your expansion however it just seems longer cause the turns take so much time to get through all the factions. its much more tedious to turtle in Italy and try to delay your expansion as Rome. does it also disadvantage the AI to some degree? I've heard complaints on other boards about TW games in general that the AI cant make long term plans and is re-assessing the situation every turn , which leads to armies being moved back and forth seemingly aimlessly. Do you agree with this, and if so, would less tpy (and thus more movement possible per turn) help the AI more?

...although it does help give you some warning of incoming armies such as from Epirus.. Speaking of, do you know if your sub-mod mod can or has changed the willingness of AI to declare war? Syracuse wouldn't accept peace without me giving them all my hard earned money despite their armies being gone and me besieging their city. I assumed this would mean Epirus, which was across the water and still kept pumping out armies , would never accept a historical -style peace with Rome without me going over there , but then they eventually asked for it themselves , i guess because they were also at war with carthage?

[Jake Armitage]

To check current replenish you'll have to re-click on the army.
Replenish stance: put them in replenish and then re-click on the army to check real current values.

The only thing a 12tpy does is setting seasons and years differently, nothing else.
Building something properly 12tpy is a completely different thing.
We had many internal discussions (DeI devs channels) regarding AI behaviours, it's not easy to set them right but we are doing some advancements.
Next testudo version will have some suggestions coming from Seleukos, let's see if they work.

Diplomacy is another thing which is pretty much difficult to control, that's also why I've begun to script it via DIGS features.
In time testudo will have custom systems letting you handle diplomacy better, without the new systems there is pretty much anything you can do.
Modding is a slow process, the only way is one step per time.

[Jake Armitage]

Hey Jake, do you happen to have a beta patch for the population script fixes or something? I'd be happy to test it out. Been wanting to fire up my rome campaign again and actually have some proles to recruit.

sorry, I see this now
nope I haven't begun modding testudo again yet, I'm messing with the spawn button thing
also, there are many internal DeI fix packs (battle stats too) so I'll have to recheck most of the things

give it a try with these, pop packs for first 1.6 version
for what I remember some old version was better than the one we have now but I saw some complaints about having too few pop at that time, so I worked on those values and probably messed up them
let me know how these packs are doing pop things, thx
http://www.mediafire.com/file/ul30q7vcsjtcoos/file