[SUBMOD: a Slower Paced DeI Campaign] TESTUDO v.1.7 + Custom Packs [upd: aug.09/20] - OUTDATED

[Jake Armitage]

Sure, but honestly both your posts take us back to the fact that the situation is serious and must not be understimated.
And, sure, you could build a sort of philosophical curtain where you say that this is simply a common recurrent issue for a complex system like our planet and that the issue is minimized if you confront it with other ones which belongs to "darwinian ranges".
You could also say that since we are biological beings and we are the direct biological "advancement" [through the replication/evolution of the dna which flows from a "giving life" being (parent) to a "receiving life" being (son)] of dinosaurs then we still have information (printed somewhere in the dna) of the catastrophic events which erased dinosaurs... and so, again, covid-19 could be considered just a water drop inside an ocean.
But if you relativistically relate the covid-19 to our human context of early 2020 the situation is simply serious and must not be understimated.
Deaths, hospital/sanitation crisis, economical crisis and total lockdowns are things that change a lot of things.
Try to be a little more empathic inside net chats, leo, there is no need to have a too much binaristic (yes/no) behaviour.

If you were simply referring to the fact that I'm wrong when I respect the law dispositions of my government... , then, believe me, I didn't and tomorrow probably I won't (since I will surely move around the city without legal reason, most probably). I really rarely care about law dispositions. Because most of the times they are simply obvious.
I've begun following them more strictly just this from this week 'cause last friday we (me, clients and workers) decided to stop every construction site operation, because we realized that the situation is serious and must not be understimated. We did this 'cause we thought it was the right choice to do for ourselves, our families, our city, our country, our continent, our planet (even if laws are going to prohibit it from tomorrow, actually).

[Aureliae]

@leonardusius
You can hold whatever opinion you want about how serious this is, on the condition that you respect social isolation/quarantine, sanitation, and behave in a way that is not a threat to public health. It's much less risky to overestimate it (less bad consequences) than to underestimate it (more bad consequences). If you want "natural immunity", that's what vaccines are for...

@Jake Armitage
You be safe out there in Italy. I'm at a university in a relatively smaller city in the Appalachian Mountains of the U.S.A., and things have changed here very rapidly in the last few weeks: almost all sports in the U.S. have stopped, all university classes for me are now online, some of my university's operations have ceased or slowed, majority of students here have left the dormitories, most businesses in the city are changing their operations or temporarily closing, my friend who worked at a restaurant can't go to work and has no income, grocery store shelves are empty, etc, etc. Now I'm stuck inside my dormitory apartment doing schoolwork online, only coming out for groceries and maybe a walk in secluded areas to stretch my legs and keep my blood flowing and get fresh air (the windows in my dormitory apartment can't open). The Olympics in Tokyo will probably be moved to next year. It's all very weird indeed, very surreal. I have family in San Francisco, California and things are EXTREMELY different there. I do have some problems with how our federal govt is handling things here. The Italian politicians shutdown their country, American politicians sold their stocks so they wouldn't lose money and our President was telling us over the last few months that we're safe and there's nothing to worry about...

[Jake Armitage]

the windows in my dormitory apartment can't open
oh men, you're doomed...

the thing that surprised me (more than politician's behaviours) is the world health organization, honestly.
I'm not the kind of guy who has the tendency to criticize but... jesus... how is it possible that this thing had the time to build itself at the level we are now? Basically in the absence of any prevention? Buh...

[gnosis89]

Because Jake, we're more intent on spending Trillions of $$$ on militarizing our nations than protecting our species from such things...yay for homo not so sapiens.

And if something were to happen to you Jake old boy, the DeI community will have lost an essential submod. (I now find it to be necessary to the DeI experience, can't play without it.) So for the 1,000 times, many thanks my good sir.

[leonardusius]

Sure, but honestly both your posts take us back to the fact that the situation is serious and must not be understimated. I've begun following them more strictly just this from this week 'cause last friday we (me, clients and workers) decided to stop every construction site operation, because we realized that the situation is serious and must not be understimated. We did this 'cause we thought it was the right choice to do for ourselves, our families, our city, our country, our continent, our planet (even if laws are going to prohibit it from tomorrow, actually).

Jake, it's good to take measures and protect yourself. But, if we look just some years ago, there were hysteria of pig flu, aviary flu, and I can list another 10 plagues of each sort for only the last 15 years. That, only mathematically/statistically is going to say SOMETHING is really fishy worldwide. Because otherwise, we will get those 'periodic cliche' on and on from now on ! For example pig flu epidemic, which in terms of medical biologic approach is the half brother of this covid; and killed 18500 peoples worldwide but there was no such hysteria panic of any kind. SOMEBODY wants with all efforts to channel the humans globally in a discrete direction. For me it's OBVIOUS. For others, it's only what authorities say, and nothing more. Tomorrow they will get another portion of panic and ....virus.

[Aureliae]

the windows in my dormitory apartment can't open
oh men, you're doomed...

The good news is my campus has trails through the woods nearby, so I can still go be with nature. I'm still jealous of all the balconies that Europeans have...

Because Jake, we're more intent on spending Trillions of $$$ on militarizing our nations than protecting our species from such things...yay for homo not so sapiens.

And if something were to happen to you Jake old boy, the DeI community will have lost an essential submod. (I now find it to be necessary to the DeI experience, can't play without it.) So for the 1,000 times, many thanks my good sir.

Too true, too true, with every point you made. Homo not so sapiens and I can no longer play DeI without Testudo.

For example pig flu epidemic, which in terms of medical biologic approach is the half brother of this covid; and killed 18500 peoples worldwide but there was no such hysteria panic of any kind.

A fair point, and I'd like to know more about what is different between now and then to explain this. Other than shadowy figures trying to pull the puppet strings of the world...

Maybe the swine flu having been so deadly is the reason why we have hysteria now, because we've finally learned to be more careful?

SOMEBODY wants with all efforts to channel the humans globally in a discrete direction. For me it's OBVIOUS.

That's certainly not "obvious". Obvious things are the sky is blue, water is wet, salt tastes salty, the Ancient Greeks liked young boys, and Steppe nomad armies consisting exclusively of cataphracts and cavalry archers are powerful and terrifying...

[Aureliae]

@All Testudo Users

This is a pack file derived from my own personal submod, uploaded here for testing with Testudo: http://www.mediafire.com/file/s92f3r4fnlgj7ws/%2521_Conquest_Options_and_DV_Conf%252BVass.pack/file
I can reupload it in 2 weeks when it comes off MediaFire, because I'm not a registered user there. I've been using these in my personal submod for years, long before I ever started playing DeI with Testudo.

It contains 3 different db tables:

1. The first is based on an older mod originally entitled "Stop Barbarian Empires". You can find the original file here, but it's not the original upload. It changes the available options to the 4 different culture groups when a faction conquers a new region, affecting how different cultures will expand on the campaign map. The options are as follows:

• Barbrian Culture Faction: Loot, Sack, Raze
• Eastern Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Sack
• Hellenic Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Sack
• Roman Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Raze
• All 4 Culture Groups: Subjugate, Liberate

I've considered testing it with Barbarian Cultures only being able to Sack, Subjugate, and Liberate (i.e. they can't gain direct control of new land), but have not yet. This is a more extreme change and probably shouldn't be done when playing as a Barbarian Culture faction...but might be a good idea for us to try when playing non-Barbarian factions. If anyone would like to test it that way, you can either make the change to the pack file yourself or I can upload another version with the difference.

2. The second is originally copied from Ygraine's Data Venia submod for DeI. It simply removes the ability for factions to make client states, and instead every faction can create vassals instead, both via diplomacy and subjugation. Any client states that exist on the map at the start of the campaign remain as they are (changing them would require making edits to the startpos, and no one wants to do that, trust us), but this is mostly only relevant for Carthage, I believe. This alleviates the "diplomatic drama" between tributary states, their masters, and other factions; and vassals tend to get along better with their masters than client states do. I also believe that the behavior of "vassals" in Rome 2 is more historically realistic than the behavior of "client states".

3. The third table is also from Ygraine's Data Venia. It vastly expands the confederation options available to all factions: more factions have the diplomatic options to confederate and they can confederate with more other factions. This makes the campaign map far more dynamic and interesting, and gives the player another option for expansion when playing as most factions.

The text files in the pack are simply aesthetic changes: "vassals" are now called "tributaries" on the campaign map and some confederations have been renamed to something more suitable.

More discussion about this pack file can be found in these posts from the DIGS thread.

[Jake Armitage]

@ gnosis
geez man... are you sending it to me?

@ leo
true but the contextual situation is pretty different. There will be tons of "not happend situations since 1945" that will define things differently, not depending by both what curve the pandemy will take and its "fishiness". Both privately and worldwidely.
Earth will surely keep going around the sun for billions of years but if you ask me then... I think the postmodern era will be historically considered ended (by future historians) from this epidemic "phoenix point". It is contaminating too many things, not just perception and psychology. And, obviously, it will be used as a pretext from our commanding chain.

@ aureliae
Nice
I'll check the pack, eventually integrate some parts of it in next version or put it/them as a/different Turtle_Weight pack/s

I've added you to a TWC closed group (DeI submodders alcove). Lot of people inside but don't expect it to be extremly active. Although, you can find discussions and tutorials inside. Feel fre to post what you want.
TWC is the main site where DeI is developed but keep in mind that, since we're in 2020, some parts of the "modding process" are moving to discord... I was extremly skeptical at beginning and I was one of the last ones ("devs" considering) to enter there but... it can be useful.
If you want to join here is the link https://discord.gg/Wez6GSY
We have closed chats for submodders in discord too.

[marseu]

Hi Jake, I'm enjoing your submod and while playng I'm thinking about 2 things.

First, I think that joining war offers should play a much important role in diplomacy. As it is now, the factions seem to not accept it, even if offered as a gift.

Second, will you explore war weariness mechanics? I hope it should be useful to deal with offering of peace for the player and ai that are winning battles against long lasting enemy factions. As it is now I'm winning defensive battles over battles against a still strong chartaginian empire, but they insist to not accept my peace offer. What is needed is some truce mechanic, don't you think so?

[Jake Armitage]

Glad you're enjoying

1) true but I think it is pretty necessary... make an AI join war worths pretty many diplo points and it is a good way to keep good relations with your allies. If it were too easily obtainable then the player would have too many advantages imo, mostly after the introduction of DIGS which surely made things less harsh overall (since they are more controllable).

2) sure, it will be similar to the econmical trust (probably called war trust), meaning that it will have range, thresholds, various things affecting it and bonuses/maluses to define a sort of war curve. For example, when you'll have a positive war trust, you'll have some recruitment point less, less cost/upkeep but less stronger units, vice-versa for negative (it will mess with po, replenishment and other basic things too).
About the peace system you're talking... mmh... I'm not sure it would be easy to build nor to control it 'cause, at the end, war is on/off and it's not tht simple to define an on/off threshold... I don't know. I think that the war trust system will help you finish a factional war a little sooner at the cost of civic development and, apart from that, my intention is to trigger a peace through the trade region system. You'll be able to offer a region to the enemy in exchange for a temporary peace. I think this will work better since it "officially" signs a treaty where the player renonuces to something important for limiting war fronts.
For example, if you're rome vs carthago, you could decide to gift your just earned first african region so to return at peace and solidify the italy/africa front. Trading region system won't be simply on/off, meaning that it will require you to send a govenor (agent) to the region you want to gift (and wait some turns to build the curve and reach the threshold) so that player will have to specifically build that political event, not just push a button (which should be impossible for Rome 2 btw)

Now that I think about... something simple could be done... something like a war turn threshold where if a war spans for more than, let's say, 100 turns it is reverted to peace. If the threshold is kept tendentially high and dependable on the difference between the imperium levels might work... I'll think about.
Could be that this will work as a truce system, which combined with war trust, something adjusted/added to DIGS and the transfer region system could be pretty complete, speaking of war related things...

Gosh, there is plenty of things to do... I should return to modding soon, hope so...

[pawelrut]

And if something were to happen to you Jake old boy, the DeI community will have lost an essential submod. (I now find it to be necessary to the DeI experience, can't play without it.) So for the 1,000 times, many thanks my good sir.

I second that.
TESTUDO is a beautiful peace of art. You have done wonders here. Congratulations my friend. I can’t play Rome 2 without DeI and I can't play DeI without TESTUDO.

I've considered testing it with Barbarian Cultures only being able to Sack, Subjugate, and Liberate (i.e. they can't gain direct control of new land)

I been using this option and the second one in my personal submod for years, barbarian factions behave much more like barbarians, the still become powerful having lots of vassals. I find them much harder to conquer then lager empires. I find lager empires static and pushovers once you destroy all the starting armies, once they gone you can just siege all the undefended cities. Using this every barbarian province is defended by 3 or more armies and you get attack by all the vassals armies as well.

…
sure, it will be similar to the econmical trust (probably called war trust), meaning that it will have range, thresholds, various things affecting it and bonuses/maluses to define a sort of war curve. For example, when you'll have a positive war trust, you'll have some recruitment point less, less cost/upkeep but less stronger units, vice-versa for negative (it will mess with po, replenishment and other basic things too).
...

Lots of great ideas here Jake. Is it possible to make a war score system, like paradox games have?

[Jake Armitage]

Happy you're enjoying guys, it means the "product" is good and that's the objective

Ah, effectively I've never thought about that barbaian possibility... it seems rather interesting.
Good thing Aureliae did that pack, so. I'm beginning to see the picture behind.

I don't know paradox games much... I just played a campaing once, ck2 with some mods but... yes those kind of games are really interesting... but I found them too sterile at the end. I like when the game makes me think but paradox's gameplay style is too flat and repetitive to me. Seemed to me like I had to do homeworks...
If you describe me better what's that war score system I may be able to give an answer though.

[pawelrut]

Here's link to EU4 Wiki that explains the system:

https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Warfare

Paradox games are complex so the system need to be simplified for total war.

I'm not asking you to make one, I can give it a go myself, just wondering if you think it's possible at all.

[gnosis89]

@All Testudo Users

This is a pack file derived from my own personal submod, uploaded here for testing with Testudo: http://www.mediafire.com/file/s92f3r4fnlgj7ws/%2521_Conquest_Options_and_DV_Conf%252BVass.pack/file
I can reupload it in 2 weeks when it comes off MediaFire, because I'm not a registered user there. I've been using these in my personal submod for years, long before I ever started playing DeI with Testudo.

It contains 3 different db tables:

1. The first is based on an older mod originally entitled "Stop Barbarian Empires". You can find the original file here, but it's not the original upload. It changes the available options to the 4 different culture groups when a faction conquers a new region, affecting how different cultures will expand on the campaign map. The options are as follows:

• Barbrian Culture Faction: Loot, Sack, Raze
• Eastern Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Sack
• Hellenic Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Sack
• Roman Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Raze
• All 4 Culture Groups: Subjugate, Liberate

I've considered testing it with Barbarian Cultures only being able to Sack, Subjugate, and Liberate (i.e. they can't gain direct control of new land), but have not yet. This is a more extreme change and probably shouldn't be done when playing as a Barbarian Culture faction...but might be a good idea for us to try when playing non-Barbarian factions. If anyone would like to test it that way, you can either make the change to the pack file yourself or I can upload another version with the difference.

2. The second is originally copied from Ygraine's Data Venia submod for DeI. It simply removes the ability for factions to make client states, and instead every faction can create vassals instead, both via diplomacy and subjugation. Any client states that exist on the map at the start of the campaign remain as they are (changing them would require making edits to the startpos, and no one wants to do that, trust us), but this is mostly only relevant for Carthage, I believe. This alleviates the "diplomatic drama" between tributary states, their masters, and other factions; and vassals tend to get along better with their masters than client states do. I also believe that the behavior of "vassals" in Rome 2 is more historically realistic than the behavior of "client states".

3. The third table is also from Ygraine's Data Venia. It vastly expands the confederation options available to all factions: more factions have the diplomatic options to confederate and they can confederate with more other factions. This makes the campaign map far more dynamic and interesting, and gives the player another option for expansion when playing as most factions.

The text files in the pack are simply aesthetic changes: "vassals" are now called "tributaries" on the campaign map and some confederations have been renamed to something more suitable.

More discussion about this pack file can be found in these posts from the DIGS thread.

The first seems a lot like the AI Arbitris mod (miss that)

The second is VERY useful.

And the third as well.

Great additions, hopefully they will become official submod submods as being additional turtle options etc...


Oh and the warscore system would be INCREDIBLE for TW, however I highly doubt anyone could implement that. It's essentially a system that gives "points" for every successful action in a war against another faction (the bigger the event ie HUGE battle victory, more important settlements taken etc...the higher the score). Then when you make peace, certain demans cost "points" so depending on the amount of points you've accumulated in comparison to your enemies your offer will or won't be acceptable. It makes it so that factions don't stay at war until utter obliteration and there are reasonable peace accords. Would help to keep factions around longer too. Something that RTW II is terrible with. This would in my opinion be one of the greatest additions to RTW II, however again as mentioned I don't think it'd be possible.... Please prove me otherwise Jake and others..

[Jake Armitage]

warscore
Ok, I've got the general idea and yes it is doable.
More or less.
Systems like pop, supply, my VPS taken from your people trust, some systems Detrooper did for attila's mk1212 are all based on the construction of math systems which build a point range affecting the gameplay.
The problem is the interface part (panels where you choose options). There could be some workarounds but it's too early to talk about that as for now.
I'll have a deeper look to the wiki page when I'll start working on that war trust/truce/whatever system, it seems it has good explained infos which may be useful to build the system math.

[gnosis89]

Having a dynamic trust/truce/war system in place (along with a good region exchange) would be the best possible additions to RII in my opinion (aside from what DeI and Testudo have already done that is). If my "vote" has any sway, I vote that all further Testudo development go towards these....

[Jake Armitage]

eh... the problem is that at whatever 20th day of more or less reclusion I am... I think I've begun suffering of some kind of brain damage which is making my reality memento style...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Op_tlDc4BM

[gnosis89]

Well if it's any consolation, I've been in relative isolation for about 14 now and aside from the whole worrisome bit (ie. contracting a possibly fatal pathogen and/or loved ones doing so) it's a hoot. Playing Arma 3 (modded of course) and DeI with testudo. Now if I didn't have books and a PC, it may be quite bad....still an interesting change anyhow.

[Jake Armitage]

My greatest joy, lately, is to wait midnight and eat salame and rusks + butter...

[marseu]

@All Testudo Users

This is a pack file derived from my own personal submod, uploaded here for testing with Testudo: http://www.mediafire.com/file/s92f3r4fnlgj7ws/%2521_Conquest_Options_and_DV_Conf%252BVass.pack/file
I can reupload it in 2 weeks when it comes off MediaFire, because I'm not a registered user there. I've been using these in my personal submod for years, long before I ever started playing DeI with Testudo.

It contains 3 different db tables:

1. The first is based on an older mod originally entitled "Stop Barbarian Empires". You can find the original file here, but it's not the original upload. It changes the available options to the 4 different culture groups when a faction conquers a new region, affecting how different cultures will expand on the campaign map. The options are as follows:

• Barbrian Culture Faction: Loot, Sack, Raze
• Eastern Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Sack
• Hellenic Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Sack
• Roman Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Raze
• All 4 Culture Groups: Subjugate, Liberate

I've considered testing it with Barbarian Cultures only being able to Sack, Subjugate, and Liberate (i.e. they can't gain direct control of new land), but have not yet. This is a more extreme change and probably shouldn't be done when playing as a Barbarian Culture faction...but might be a good idea for us to try when playing non-Barbarian factions. If anyone would like to test it that way, you can either make the change to the pack file yourself or I can upload another version with the difference.

2. The second is originally copied from Ygraine's Data Venia submod for DeI. It simply removes the ability for factions to make client states, and instead every faction can create vassals instead, both via diplomacy and subjugation. Any client states that exist on the map at the start of the campaign remain as they are (changing them would require making edits to the startpos, and no one wants to do that, trust us), but this is mostly only relevant for Carthage, I believe. This alleviates the "diplomatic drama" between tributary states, their masters, and other factions; and vassals tend to get along better with their masters than client states do. I also believe that the behavior of "vassals" in Rome 2 is more historically realistic than the behavior of "client states".

3. The third table is also from Ygraine's Data Venia. It vastly expands the confederation options available to all factions: more factions have the diplomatic options to confederate and they can confederate with more other factions. This makes the campaign map far more dynamic and interesting, and gives the player another option for expansion when playing as most factions.

The text files in the pack are simply aesthetic changes: "vassals" are now called "tributaries" on the campaign map and some confederations have been renamed to something more suitable.

More discussion about this pack file can be found in these posts from the DIGS thread.

This is a great addition, but If I can I would suggest this configuration as a better compromise between game mechanics and historical accuracy. Anyway I don't have any modding skills so if you can do it for I'll be greatfull.
Thanks anyway.

• Barbrian Culture Faction: Raze, Sack, Liberate
• Eastern Culture Factions: Loot, Subjugate, Sack
• Hellenic Culture Factions: Occupy, Liberate, Loot
• Roman Culture Factions: Occupy, Loot, Subjugate
• All 4 Culture Groups: Confedration

Why so? Even if obvisuoly all of this cultures in history had made all of this kind of treatment against they'r enemies, I think we have to find a more typical demeanor for each of them.

So in my opinion it is more accurate that barbarians tend to sack or raze if they need land and liberate if they need allies cause dont have a good governance to deal with tributaries.

Instead for romans I think it is more accurate they tend to occupy or loot beacause they need slaves and subjugate beacuse they tended to have a strong grasp on they'r once was enemies.

For hellenics in history they formed great confederations by liberating factions politically alligned and somtimes they made very cruel acts against they' enemies by looting settlements, after long time wars.

Easterns obviousoly tend to enslave theyr enemies and when they needed allies they subjugated them.

Cheers