[SUBMOD: a Slower Paced DeI Campaign] TESTUDO v.1.7 + Custom Packs [upd: aug.09/20] - OUTDATED

[bthizle1]

Yeah, at this point it is better so there won't be inconguences.
I've already updated some features but not everyone, mostly regarding new db entries here and there.

@Goffredo85
The population packs won't entirely work for other campaigns outside GC 'cause I didn't change library values for their regions (which means starting population won't change, just the modifiers will work)

I don't wish to be that person, but any ETA on when all Testudo and all it's subparts may be working with 1.2.5? No intending to rush you, just curious.

And Jake, do you work with/on the DeI team? Because I can say with much certainty that your submod(s) make DeI (an already fantastic mod) so very much better. Especially as you give so many options for play styles (packs). Again I cannot thank you enough for all of your great work.

[Jake Armitage]

I'm working on them now (10 pm here), could be 4 hours / 28 max (it also depends if tomorrow I wanna RL work or not, probably not but I fear I'll have to go to a construction site during the afternoon and invent some excuses...)
testudo 1.5.2 version is compatible (there are some discrepances about values here and there) with DeI update but my advice is to wait for testudo 1.6 'cause I've balanced quite a lot of things and it won't be save game compatible.

Yeah, I'm part of the "devs" (even if I've done almost nothing for DeI) but Dresden is right to keep DeI vanilla for thousands of users and I do really think that few players would like to have complicated versions only.
We may start adding some complex features for Alexander and other upcoming submod, but DeI is fine as it is, imo.

I'm really glad you're enjoying the gameplay, years ago I gave the same thanks to alleycat for his M2TW TURTLE TATW submod, I loved that guy, so the wheel is just going on.
I'm also happy to have found a good balance (1.6 will be better 'cause it will reduce some hardcore feature and so the gameplay will be more enjoyable) and keep in mind that I should be halfway regarding what I've already planned.
Long way to go, still (turtle style here too).

[bthizle1]

I'll wait for 1.6 then. I look forward to it....and well quite frankly somewhat "refuse" to play DeI without this mod now. (Though I may just give it a try to see how vanilla (DeI) 1.2.5 is.

[Jake Armitage]

Sorry bthizle1 (and others interested), I sill have to finish some things, I'll release it in 24 hrs.

[bthizle1]

Oh no need to apologize, you're doing us all a very big favor in doing so. We should be thanking you....

[Jake Armitage]

TESTUDO 1.6
IS OUT!

So, it was a lot of work at the end, I hope it will worth...
Please keep reporting and if possible send me your savegames every 100 turns.


There are really a lot of changes here and there, basically:

- I've divided differently the various packs, this is useful for more control about modding
- TESTUDO 1.6 is overall easier
- TESTUDO 1.6 contains new versions of PIGS, RPGu and VPS (I'll have to update them singularly)
- I'll have to redo all RPGu units from scratch, for now I've rebalanced here and there some values but the units are still invisible, sorry. I will update it with DeI 1.2.5 values, remove the invisibility and add a navy RPG unit.
- The Treasury script has been removed due to the new VPS system
- I've done a custom script for the autoresolve system, it will work quite differently, wanna see how it is
- redone and rebalanced AI scripts and custom values
- lowered deployable armies for AI (player will have still more for deploying the RPGu units)
- redone UI texts to be more friendly and with new colors
- added TURTLE_Weights (LIGHT and HEAVY versions, which mean overall easier and overall harder versions). Always play at NORMAL difficulty.
- surely others things I've forgotten, I'll put description when I'll update post #2

The Feature at post #2 is not updated yet, I'll do it soon. You'll find info into post #1 and post #3.
Better to read them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[bthizle1]

Wonderful work again Jake. I was wondering if you might have any plans to make the Ardaei a playable faction? I'd love to try them out, especially given the new remake. (On that note, perhaps Sparta as well?)

[Jake Armitage]

! NEWS !

- just changed some texts in the #1 post and updated #2 post with texts and images


@bthizle1
Yeah, I'll do for all DeI playable factions.
Ardiaei and Sparta had a visual overhaul in 1.2.5, that's the reason why they aren't available, as you were suggesting.

[Jake Armitage]

> REPORTS <

- So a couple of images from the current campaign (HUGE_12tpy - 200 turns with Rome).
- Everything seems fine to me and it seems 1.6 is a good overall version.
- I've already found some minor bugs and had a lot of ideas more.
- I'll start working on VPS/PIGS/RPGu to update 1.6 changes and put new ideas too.
- It will require some time, I fear.

HUGE_12tpy with Rome

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

FACTIONS
TURN 50



TURN 100



TURN 150



TURN 200



DIPLOMACY

TURN 50



TURN 100



TURN 150



TURN 200

[bthizle1]

Will it be okay to use the settlers unit submod with this?

[Ritmas]

@@@@@_TURTLE_01_Parts_Movement

is this the pack to increase campaign movement range or battle? I'd like to have more vanilla like campaign ranges, since in some cases marching half a year between provinces is plain stupid imho

[Jake Armitage]

@bthizle1
yes it is, I'll do a custom version linked with RPGu

@Ritmas
campaign movement only
here's the description

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There are now 13 packs for armies (from +30 to -30 with a 5 pace) you can choose from, depending on personal taste and faction chosen.
- Armies and Navies are now together.
- New features have been added, like reduction to seasonal and regional penalties. You'll move slightly better now.
- Load only one pack, you can load the pack above any other mod you have (be sure it is loaded at least before DeI or any DeI fixpack).

+30 armies / 0 navies: vanilla Rome 2 without DeI
+25 armies / -5 navies
+20 armies / -10 navies
+15 armies / -15 navies
+10 armies / -20 navies: vanilla DeI
+05 armies / -25 navies
00 armies / -30 navies
-05 armies / -35 navies: already inside TESTUDO TINY pack
-10 armies / -40 navies: original DonKanallje's - already inside TESTUDO SMALL pack
-15 armies / -45 navies: already inside TESTUDO MEDIUM pack
-20 armies / -50 navies: already inside TESTUDO LARGE pack
-25 armies / -55 navies: already inside TESTUDO HUGE pack
-30 armies/ -60 navies

I get what you say about "realistc movement" but this way you'll loose more. If you can move from one settlement to another in 1 turn you'll loose all the "realistic strategy" 2 armies have before battling.
It's a matter of choice. Honestly I never play with less than -15.

[Jurand of Cracow]

PRAISE

Jake, your mods are just awesome. Finally somebody who understands that intricate management, elimination of obvious exploits (like recruitment after full movement) and slow pace of the gameplay can be very satifying for a player. This is something I was looking for. The slower movement provides for tactical gameplay, the RPGs for some kind of province management (that was at the heart of Medieval 2 for me), the anti-snowball mechanims would make (perhaps, I'm not yet there ;-) late game interesting,
This is a great supplement to the DeI. Thanks!

QUESTIONS

A few questions:
- have you tweaked the benefits of playing the battles manually? I mean - special traits, or more money, or something? The sniping group of armies mechanism really kills an urge in me to fight them manually. This is really a shame given the wonderous KAM's BAI.
- is there any way to prevent the AI (or player) from taking a walled city (capital of a province) withing one turn? I really don't like the system that your (or AI) can rush taking a province. It happened once to me in DEI 123 that Helvetii in one turn would take walled Mediolanum and also Genua. With your mod it's not possible anymore, but at least one turn required for sieging would be welcome, I think.
- have you thought about limiting the amount of money the player is able to extract from the AI in trade deals and also non-aggression pacts? As Rome I could make a few hundreds from almost each nation and from Rodos even 6k twice. At DeI Hard it's not possible but I've played your mod at Normal - and the AI is willing to pay.
cheers.

EXPERIENCE

Some impressions from playing the DeI+Testudo:
- as Rome you're not supposed to turtle at the beginning. Recruit troops and get ready - the AI will come after you soon, from both sides (or even more: Veneti are eager to find a foe as well). I've actually made a mistake and went with my army to Etruria - and Epeiros took Beneventum, then Cosentia and then even Ascullum. I wish I had set up a garrison army in Beneventum to prevent this debacle.
- as Scordisci: at the beginning you're flooded with cash (no building slots available, recruitment 1 unit a turn) so you may relieve your province from taxes (corruption would eat the money anyway). The situation changes later as your army gets bigger and bigger. PO is a serious problem right from the beginning and never goes off. So it was exciting to play as on the one hand at the Normal difficulty the AI behavious less aggressive than on Hard (I usually play Hard in DEI so I'm accustomed to everybody hating me), on the other - you're likely to have significant internal problems. However, then the AI factions consolidate while you don't - and the way is downhill.

Despite being very careful I got crushed at turn 70. This was because around turn 50 the AI factions got two provinces (Daorsi, Breuci, Bastranae) and started fielding more armies. After some time they declared war at me. I think it was also becasue I had a weaker military than the other factions - so I was perceived as an easy prey. Obviously, I was unable to expand in any way before, I don't think it's possible. I've reloaded twice and tried other ways - the end arrived later, but still very soon, before turn 90.

The bottom line: it's very difficult for me to see how one can cope with 1-province faction with Testudo.


ISSUES

[a] I think (one of a few ;-) problems plaing the mod as a small faction is that there's a death spiral: when you get into problems, these problems get bigger and bigger no matter what you're doing. I've spotted one of the countermechanisms (if a province has very big PO problems, there're PO bonuses to make them smaller), but they're perhaps too few.

[b] A lower movement range of the armies hits the player very hard - it's because the player makes up for more numerous enemy factions by employing the same army at many fronts. With Testudo it's not possible - and you've got also less money that means you cannot have more armies to compensate. Obviously, the lack of money is also more acutely felt by the player - with the same number of provinces the AI can hold more armies.

[c] An error - or a collateral damage of the Testudo - are the missions that require the player to research something. The Rome2 engine counts the number of turns without paying attention to Testudo slowing down the pace of research. As a result it sets the number in a way that's not possible to attain. Eg the engine says "research it in 11 turns" but it's feasible only in 13 turn - irrespectively of the player's best efforts.

[d] I've seen the army stances different from DeI for faction of Rome (as they should be), but not for Scordisci. The same was with those special generals - I couldn't recruit them as Scordisci (and I've loaded the mod correctly, I've checked it during the same load with Rome - it worked).

CONCLUSION

All in all, I think the mod is a great piece of modding. One should keep in mind though that it's crafted for Rome and Carthago (and maybe the Seleukids, Ptolemaioi, Baktria and Hayk) but not for the smaller factions.

JoC

[Jake Armitage]

PRAISE
Thx
More or less you're correct in everything you've reported. Keep in mind that I should be half way to what I've planned to do (if I'll ever bring it to the end).

QUESTIONS
a) I'll have to check that post
b) mmhh, dunno, if I'm correct I remember that DeI vanilla had them raised lately, I'll have to check
c) diplomacy is really important for TESTUDO, you'll end reinvesting that gold with other factions for other purposes. Getting money has an immediate good effect but it is countered by both corruption and VPS economy. I don't see those gains as a weak spot.

EXPERIENCE
1 region factions are surely harder but not spirally impossible. I can tell you that by experience. Sometimes it happens to me too that at a certain point I'm stucked. Keep in mind that last 2 version have decreased the overall difficulty (besides some general and slight unbalancements I think it's rather fine now). You'll have to play the correct chess moves, invest money and form diplomatic "coalitions".
Anyway, I'll rise the BEGINNER'S LUCK effect values, they are divided into number of regions owned.
Yeah, removing taxes sometimes it is necessary. It will give you fresh air for the VPS economy too.

ISSUES
a) see answer above
b) yeah, do you see it as unbalanced?
c) yeah, I still have to do that, an event/mission overhaul will be part of PIGS or at least so it's planned
d) SCORDISCI pack is fine, just tested it, you probably kept ROME pack and it was overwriting (in this case giving it to AI)

-----

May I ask you what kind of packs you've used?
Thx again for the report.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi Jake,

I've used all the packs at Medium level (but the 1 - as speeds -25 are included in the base Testudo)
I've used the Roma pack, not the Scordisci :-)

I don't think Beginners luck plays much role for 1-province as you're waiting for recruitment those 20 turns ;-) You simply don't have a situation to reap benefits of the Beginners luck. I think for the 1-province-starts something different is needed. The problem is that there's no way to expand to a few regions and then the AI expands and crushes you simply because you cannot afford enough troops to face any invasion. As you're an underdog, the rest of factions gangs up. I still believe that with 1-province you're doomed (maybe in the British Islands or as Kimbroz you can cope, but not in the Balkans or Anatolia or Spain).

As Scordisci I've not only invested money in coalitions, but I've liberated two regions next to me just to have friends (it was not possible to keep those regions for the PO reasons anyway). For me, the PO was the main problem - it was not possible to prevent from spiraling down. And this has side effect, eg (I believe) the garrisons don't refill if PO is so low (or maybe there's another reason but I've discovered the lack of garrisons while 4 slave units after a rebellion took a region because there're almost nobody.

[b] - I don't know if unbalanced but this is a major problem for the player. And additionally, the low PO gives also mali also for the movement. The road from Singidunum to Epidamnos would take me 8 turns - so having won with Adriaei incursion made no benefits - there's no time to exploit it in any meaningful way.

[Jake Armitage]

Beginner's Luck will help a bit, its turn-pace depends on tpy, with 4tpy you'll get some bonuses for the first 32 turns, they aren't few.
If you were playing without the TESTUDO_ PICK_Faction pack then surely you had PO problems and other issues (your campaign entirely missed part of the TESTUDO tables/scripts), you missed both Stances and RPGu effects, they are essential (which involves a bit of charachter roleplaying).

Try with the correct pack, otherwise you can always play it with the TURTLE_Weight Light pack.
1 region factions are hard and recquire a bit of luck too, but they aren't impossible.
I also think that a good overhaul submod should not be beaten at first campaign, you'll have to learn the difficulty curve, a player who's used to vanilla DeI will need some time to get used to TESTUDO.
Gameplay choices are more frequent and somehow different.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Testudo_Pick_Faction - I've played with the version for for Rome. If they differ for PO bonuses for the smaller factions, then it might have been the problem.
I think 1-region facions also differ among themselves as eg Massilia has much fewer neighbours and has much higher income. It may be playable, I think. Scordisci or Getae or Arvernin - I doubt, but maybe the versions of that "Pick_Faction" make the difference - if they contain special bonuses for PO for small factions and perhaps also for diplomacy (what would make the AI less inclined to gang up against you).

[Jake Armitage]

Yeah, the pick_faction is part of the mod, without it the mod isn't complete.
Anyway I'm gonna put some helps for 1 region factions.

[Maximus030]

Hey Jake,
i just recognized I’ve been playing your mod on hard/hard :O
forgot to change the difficult level... so far it all works and makes a lot fun but do you thing because of that I can’t enjoy your mod fully? I’m already in turn 54.

[Maximus030]

And why is it that my units lose xp every turn?