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Thread: [SUBMOD: a Slower Paced DeI Campaign] TESTUDO v.1.6 (DeI 1.2.5) + Custom Packs [upd: aug.07/19]

  1. #461
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    ok thx

  2. #462

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Food is not too much of an issue, but is definitely a limiting factor. I think I must be close to 70 turns in my Massalia campaign on huge (12 tpy). By now I somehow managed to take two minor settlements to complete my home province. The real issue for me is population. I'm involved in this huge war against all Iberian tribes (except one tribe who are on my side), and after a couple of large battles and replinishments my regions are severely depopulated. Part of that is my fault, since I decided to raze one of the villages that I took to get rid of the public order penalty from cultulre. All in all it looks like I will survive, but so much for expansion for a while.

    Regarding Testudo features, I must say the gameplay is very unique and enjoyable. This is the most fun I've had with a total war game in a long time. A few suggestions/possible bugs:

    1) Is it possible to add a description of what each RPGu does somewhere in-game? There is currently no way to find that information before recruiting the general and paying the money (or alt-tab and check this forum).

    2) Possible bug: I had a general with the garrison RPGu die and when I chose his replacement, I ended up with a general unit with the new RPGu, and a royal guard unit with the garrison RPGu.

    Thanks for the update! Could you please rephrase this phrase: "but it will set a new cap once AI armies are below the new cap" ? I'm confused Also I'm too engaged in my current campaign to start a new one! Thanks Jake!
    Last edited by raven63; May 15, 2019 at 10:17 PM.

  3. #463
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    This is the most fun I've had with a total war game in a long time: i'm glad, I felt the same when i used to play this https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...ddon-11-10-12) (for M2TW TATW), that's the main reason I'm doing testudo.

    If you want more population best thing you can do, next time you start a new campaign, is starting it with a different population pack (the TURTLE ones).
    If you're gonna play huge again you can put the LARGE TURTLE one for the very first turn only, end the turn, and then remove it. It will make you start a new campaign with more starting population.
    You can also keep the LARGE TURTLE and have some very slight bonuses to turn pop growths.
    Or you can put a S/M TURTLE_population pack for you current campaign to have some slight growth bonuses.

    1) RPGu, as it is now, it's an easy-to-do compromise to what I'm planning about it, so for now, just go to the RPGu thread, every feature is described into text and images. Testudo has become quite complex and the only way to understand its feature, honestly, is to have experience by playing it.
    2) That character died through the death script. Sadly there is no way to remove former BG unit (lua function works this way), disband it, keeping it is cheating, mostly if it is an RPGu BG.

    You can use the AI cap pack right now, but if an AI faction has already reached the previous cap (which is higher than the cap inside the new pack) it won't actually loose armies, but it won't be capable to go above the new cap once it goes below it.
    Last edited by Jake Armitage; May 16, 2019 at 05:49 AM.

  4. #464

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    I'm sorry I've read the instructions a few times and I am not understanding the installation.

    If I pick one of the TESTUDO packs (tiny/small/medium/ect) then this includes all the turtle parts? So If I want to play the full TESTUDO I just install:
    -SMALL (4 tpy) Testudo version
    -PICK FACTION for the faction I plan to play with
    -REDUCE AI ARMY CAP

    And that's it? I don't need to pick the turtle parts because they are already included correct?
    Can I still play 12 TPY with the small or tiny package?

    Also, how does the "REDUCE AI ARMY CAP" work? It allows the player to have more generals than the AI? Can I edit the amount of generals I get in the fame_levels_tables to suit my own preferences without ruining this part of the mod? How is the AI limited? Through scripts?
    Last edited by Hockey85; May 18, 2019 at 04:09 PM.

  5. #465
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    yes you're correct, so:

    1) pick one of the T/S/M/L/H (and the official 12tpy submod if you want to play 12 tpy)
    2) pick the faction pack (it's 100% necessary)
    3) better to pick the reduce army cap

    - yes you can play small with 12 tpy but ther are many things set to work better with 4tpy, vice-versa if you play a 12tpy version with 4 tpy
    - turtle_parts are for people who wants to do modular changes (so if you really want to play with S version, pick the M 12tpy and then add some S turtle_parts, it will work better with 12 tpy)

    - reduce ai cap works via script adding an effect for player only (you can change the cap simply changing the values into effect junction, not fame tables, fame tables will affect every faction)
    - in a previous version AI was "limited" via scripts but I removed them since they were pretty useless, now AI is "limited" into db through a lot of entries

  6. #466

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    How much is the AI affected by this mod, Jake? As in: Are they on the same playing field as the player? Are their incomes, population, etc all reduced like the player's is? How much is the AI penalized compared to the player? I ask because if they are on the same level as the player then I won't use the reduced AI cap as its only fair that if they are economically stronger than they should be able to field more armies. But if they aren't as affected by the economic penalties than the player then it is kind of unrealistic (I know the AI needs as much help as it can so I understand why) and I won't feel bad about having to arbitrarily reduce how many armies they can field.

  7. #467
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Reason why I raised army cap, in all the previous version, is mostly due to the fact strat movement is really limited.
    And I wanted to have an hardcore submod, so I thought the more armies AI has, the more your troubles.
    Anyway, when you are in a mid-game campaign (more than 150 turns) AI will begin to seriously surround you and, at this point, you'll be at war with a considerably number of factions.
    Which means, most of the times, you'll get trampled or cornered.
    I think that maintaining an higher cap for player (so to use RPGu units without losing armies) and set back AI cap to almost vanilla's values is a better gameplay solution.
    I reached 200 turns, last month, with a really enjoyable pergamon campaign where I ended owning most of turkey and forming a league with sparta (and so setting foot on greece mainland without war).
    But, at this point, I was still able to defend my borders but couldn't be able to conquer more (without having a lot of battles which is not the aim of this submod)
    The aim of this submod is to have a really long campaign, with many micromanagement options and carrying on the feeling of being always on the edge. If it would add considerable frustration, it wouldn't be a good thing.
    Honestly, I would use the new pack for the AI cap. And since you like Huge, keep the Huge version.

    This is what Dresden said yesterday into a devs discussion:
    The problem with giving the AI money through scripting is that they don't see it as income. It goes straight into their treasury. However, AI actions for recruitment and building are determined by their income value in game. They do use their treasury for some stuff (diplomacy evaluation, etc) and its good to keep them in the green so they don't have issues. But, if you want to affect their behavior its probably best to use an in game effect like the difficulty table.

    And that's the main reason why I removed the AI script when I moved onto testudo 1.5. Another reason was to reduce laggings, since those scripts were launched for every AI faction, every turn.
    Into Testudo AI is affected like the player, mostly in every feature but with a different scale.
    AI suffers same limitations the players has regarding construction time, techcnology time/effect values, reduced building effects and character's exp/effect values.
    Plus a lot of things mostly included into "campaign_difficulty_handicap_effects_tables" (food, po, costs, taxes, unit recruitment cap...).

  8. #468

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Ok. That all makes sense. Interesting how the AI views its treasury and income. Thank you for your very informative response I'll use the army cap. I haven't had the chance to play much recently but I'm just short of 200 turns in my Rome campaign. I control all of Latium and Italy and did capture Syracuse from Carthage but withdrew when they besieged it with two full stacks and my army was depleted. It came to be controlled by usurpers though which is convenient as they've just declared war on Carthage and will hopefully keep them occupied and a buffer as I've managed to get good relations. Dealing with Liguria to the north now. Think I'll have to liberate and establish a client state or something as I don't want to get tied down in that region (another good thing about Testudo is that there is actually incentive to establish clients and satraps now). I think I'll have to bite the bullet and start giving neighbouring neural factions regular payments to keep them happy so they don't blindside and randomly declare war on me like Liguria did but it will be difficult to be able to afford that too.

  9. #469

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    @Jake Armitage

    I was reading your post just above, and thought I would try a Pergamon campaign...... I cannot find Pergamon as a playable faction under grand campaign, I tried removing all my mods except for the AFP mods and they still arent an option. I even tried a clean DL of all DEI files and they still arent there.... is this new with DEI for 1.2.4 or maybe a bug in the AFP file?

  10. #470
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    you'll need this https://store.steampowered.com/app/2..._Culture_Pack/
    and you won't need AFP submod with testudo since you can play only with 30 factions

  11. #471

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Oh so you need the actual expansion to play with those factions..... I see. Does it mess up DEI if you don't own that DLC?

    So since I don't have that DLC, it's normal for Pergamon to not show up as playable on DEI with the AFP submod?

  12. #472
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    No, it doesn't mess up with DeI
    Pergamon doesn't need the AFP, it's a playable faction (well if you have the DLC, same thing with some other factions).

    To see all DeI playable factions without the AFP, just check the spoiler image into Testudo OP, under playable faction (I just red-circled the ones who are actually playable with Testudo, since I've done the pick yor faction pack)

  13. #473

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Will any of TESTUDO or the Turtle Parts work with DEI 1.1?

    Specifically the AI army limit?

  14. #474
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Mmmh, I really can't say, I don't remember all the updates that were done from 1.1 to current version.
    It's difficult to explain 'cause a single new entry (a buliding, a unit, an external script, not speaking about values differences which may unbalance your campaign) could crash your game.
    You have to try and see what happens.
    The AI army limit contains all testudo callbacks inside the campaign script, you can't use it with anything else besides testudo (you'll have to erase all the other testudo external callbacks inside the campaign script, it's easy but we're going technical here, can't say if you know what I'm speaking about).

    I get you were used to play with an earlier version, but it would be better if you'll adapt yourself to the new version than trying to adapt some current features to an old version.
    Dresden and Kam (who are the main DEI modders, not considering the 2D/3D artists) know what they do and before changing/updating DeI they'll make themselves sure that any new feature is actually better than the previous (like the CAI Scipio The Great worked on).

  15. #475

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Yeah I'm just going to stick with 1.2.4 and change a few of the things that bother me. I also really want to test out your TESTUDO mod, as I think the style you are going for is also the way I like a campaign to play out.

    Back to TESTUDO, I think I am ready to start my campaign, but I wanted to confirm I have your mod setup correctly. You mentioned that if I wanted to play SMALL with 12TPY, I should use MEDIUM 12TPY and add SMALL Turtle parts. So my load order should be like this:Click image for larger version. 

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  16. #476
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    ok, but:
    - you can remove the AFP (as you want, it doesn't change anything)
    - to properly play 12tpy you miss the official 12tpy submod, you'll need it

    Also, I would remove the 0 move pack, better to play with -10 , believe me, never go under -10 (which is already included into T/S/M packs)

    Please report experience 'cause it's a year that I don't play anything besides Huge

  17. #477

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Reporting on my campaign with Massalia:

    Almost at turn 300 now. My food, income, and public order are stabilized. My war with the Iberian tribes is still going on. I have no problem defending, and recently I was actually able to take a minor settlement and liberate it. Soon after they took it back though. To be honest this war is making the campaign less and less enjoyable, as I am getting tired of wiping off their stacks, replenishing, then wiping off more stacks. To be able to keep this up I have to fight the battles manually, otherwise the casualties would be too high, so it is becoming pretty tedious.

    I feel that the reasonable thing for the AI would be to accept peace, but the AI is just not interested. Overall, it makes sense for them to keep fighting me, as otherwise I would have expanded into Iberia and gobbled them up one by one. For this reason I feel that making the AI more prone to peace would make the game too easy.

    I have an idea for a solution, but I have no modding experience, so my ideas can be irrelevant or unrealistic. With that said here is my proposal:

    I think there are still too many soldiers in the game. A faction with about 3-4 settlements can support 3 full stacks, and can pump out a new full stack every few turns. Let's define a variable TroopNumber. This means the total number of units in all stacks for all factions + the total number of units in all garrisons in all settlements. I would like TroopNumber to be about 30% of what it is right now. Can this be done by reducing the garrisons and increasing the upkeep and recruitment cost?

    With reduced TroopNumber my hope is that, even if the war goes on for a long time, there will be less battles, less action. Sometimes less is more. Obviously it all comes down to balancing and how the AI adapts to the situation, which I have no good intuition for.
    Last edited by raven63; May 26, 2019 at 12:18 PM.

  18. #478
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Are you still cornered in massalia after 300 turns?

    I've played a roman campaign with the AI army cap pack and at turn 200 I've conquered 10 regions and didn't find the game too difficult (at normal difficulty).
    In the pergamon campaign (which is a difficult faction to play with) without the AI army cap I was able to conquer always 10 regions in 200 turns and hadn't many battles.
    Sorry you're having so an harsh time, maybe you should start a new campaign.
    Those iberian you're fighting with are large factions? Factions owning just 1 region are capable to recruit 1 unit per tuns so they need 20 turns to form a full army.
    Can you send me your savegame, so I can have a look on your campaign?

    "I think there are still too many soldiers in the game. A faction with about 3-4 settlements can support 3 full stacks, and can pump out a new full stack every few turns. Let's define a variable TroopNumber. This means the total number of units in all stacks for all factions + the total number of units in all garrisons in all settlements. I would like TroopNumber to be about 30% of what it is right now. Can this be done by reducing the garrisons and increasing the upkeep and recruitment cost?"
    Mmmh... I don't know if this can be done, I've never messed nor used any pack that changes this. I think this should be into startpos and you can't affect them via script (nor there is a function to set it).
    I'll have to check and I'll keep in mind your proposal, conceptually at least.
    Last edited by Jake Armitage; May 26, 2019 at 10:30 AM.

  19. #479

    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    Cool thanks. I've sent you my save. I'm not completely boxed in. I have 4 regions. It's just that I've been fighting a defensive war, and the AI never admits defeat when you play defensively. The only way to end the war is to take their settlements. I think if I play more aggressively it's probably doable. I've been turtling, in the spirit of the mod!

  20. #480
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [SUBMOD: a slower paced DeI campaign] TESTUDO v.1.5.1 (DeI 1.2.4b) + TURTLE_Parts [upd apr.13.19]

    well, total war are games regarding growth, so effectively you should turtle when you need, not always, otherwise you'll just end waiting for their armies and you won't have the power to fight an eventual powerful/major opponent.

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