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Thread: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

  1. #121

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    Way better! and I like the combination between the lion cloack and regular ones.
    At first I tried only pelts, but it didn't look good until I gave them cloaks as well, as you say

    New unit preview - Kyrenaioi Kleruchoi Phalangitai:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  2. #122
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    What are Iphcratean Pikemen actually? Weren't they supposed to be Peltasts?
    Would be cool if you could enlighten me^^

    Concerning the Libyan Euzonoi, wouldn't wicker shields be better?
    AFAIK wicker was THE material to cheaply produce shields in the ancient world.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Unless you'd know of a source which says otherwise.
    But IMO Thureoi should only appear after the Thireos reform,
    especially since Kyrene was on another part of the world!

    But then again, it's your mod and I highly respect the amount of work you put into this,
    it's most definitely your decision

    Concerning the Kleruchoi Phalangitai, shouldn't they have the bigger Pikemen shields?
    Last edited by Maetharin; June 18, 2017 at 04:58 AM.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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  3. #123

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    What are Iphcratean Pikemen actually? Weren't they supposed to be Peltasts?
    Would be cool if you could enlighten me^^

    Concerning the Libyan Euzonoi, wouldn't wicker shields be better?
    AFAIK wicker was THE material to cheaply produce shields in the ancient world.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Unless you'd know of a source which says otherwise.
    But IMO Thureoi should only appear after the Thireos reform,
    especially since Kyrene was on another part of the world!

    But then again, it's your mod and I highly respect the amount of work you put into this,
    it's most definitely your decision

    Concerning the Kleruchoi Phalangitai, shouldn't they have the bigger Pikemen shields?
    About the Iphicratean Pikemen:

    Cornelius Nepos' Life of Iphikrates, 1, states the following:

    "For example, he changed the arms of the infantry. While before he became commander they used very large shields (maximus clipeis), short spears (brevibus hastis) and little swords (minutis gladius), he on the contrary exchanged peltae for the round ones (peltam pro parma fecit), for which reason the infantry have since been called peltasts, in order that the soldiers might move and charge more easily when less burdened. He doubled the length of the spear and increased that of the swords; he changed the character of their armour (loricarum), giving them linen in place of bronze or chain armour (pro sertis atquae linteas dedit). In that way he made the soldiers more active; for while he diminished the weight of their armour, he contrived to protect their bodies equally well without overloading them".


    Diodoros 15.44 records the following:

    "Hence we are told, after he had acquired his long experience of military operations in the Persian War, he devised many improvements in the tools of war, devoting himself especially to the matter of arms.1 For instance, the Greeks were using shields which were large (megalais aspisi) and consequently difficult to handle; these he discarded and made small oval ones (peltas summetrous) of moderate size, thus successfully achieving both objects, to furnish the body with adequate cover and to enable the user of the small shield, on account of its lightness, to be completely free in his movements. After a trial of the new shield its easy manipulation secured its adoption, and the infantry who had formerly been called "hoplites" (hoplitai) because of their heavy shield (aspidon), then had their name changed to "peltasts" (peltastai) from the light pelta they carried. As regards spear (doratos) and sword (xiphous), he made changes in the contrary direction: namely, he increased the length of the spears by half, and made the swords almost twice as long. The actual use of these arms confirmed the initial test and from the success of the experiment won great fame for the inventive genius of the general. He made soldiers' boots that were easy to untie and light and they continue to this day to be called "Iphicratids" after him. He also introduced many other useful improvements into warfare, but it would be tedious to write about them".

    source: http://lukeuedasarson.com/Iphikrates1.html
    -----

    So that'd mean their name was derived from the smaller pelte shield and not from the fact that they've actually used javelins. The longer spear they used made them the direct precursors of the Macedonian phalanx:



    Did they use javelins? The sources are silent about this...But I'm guessing, from a purely practical perspective, it'd be very difficult to actually use them when equipped with a longer spear. On the other hand, Macedonian phalanx was trained in the use of javelins as well, on the account of conducting warfare on hilly terrain as well. Sarissa most definitely made it impossible to use javelins alongside it, but a shorter Iphicratean spear? Who knows, I think it might be possible.
    I'll have another look at this.

    About the Libyan Euzonoi - you're probably right, I haven't been able to find information about this in the sources, even though we known Numidiands used thureos. And Carthaginians most likely brought it to Spain. For now I'll change their shields to round ones.

    About the kleruchoi shield - I agree. And I don't mind feedback, I welcome it, that's why I'm posting it all here So keep the suggestions coming!

    I'll work on these changes later today. For now here's a new preview - Kyrenaioi Kleruchoi Agema Phalangitai:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  4. #124
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Cincerning the Iphicratean Pikemen, wouldn´t it be better to follow the way DeI portrays them to avoid discrepancies?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    KAM decided on portraying them as missile troops who can also put up a fight in melee situations rather than a dedicated melee unit.

    I also doubt you can effectively skirmish with a heavy warspear in your other hand, IMO they would have used either one or the other style.
    F.e. in a set piece battle they´d use a spear, in skirmishes or as garrison their javelins.

    They could also have been as units to protect your skirmishers from cavalry or Ekdromoi,
    or maybe there were even only few of them spread around within a skirmisher unit to protect them from Ekdromoi.

    But I doubt they employed their spears two handedly and formed a Macedonian Phalanx with shorter spears.
    This would have been way more prominent in the sources, and they would have outperformed hoplite armies from the moment of their conception.
    They may well have influenced Phillip II, but I think they would have simply been called Phalangitai if they didn´t fulfille a particular role.

    I´m actually also against a Thureos equipped Peltasts, IMO AE portrays later Greek mercenaries better.
    IMO the Peltast, whether you call them Iphicratean or not, and lightly armed Hoplites, whether they performed Ekdromos or not, just simply became Thureophoroi.
    Heavily armed Hoplites IMO simply became what we call Thorakitai, and IMO this is what Polybius means with that specific term.
    A heavily armed Thureophoros.

    But then again, the sources are too vague to accurately portray ancient times anyway.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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    "I concur!"

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  5. #125

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    I think I would represent them primilarily as melee troops. One thing I could see them doing is planting the spear in the ground and then tossing the javelins at enemies incoming at them, essentially softening them up before they charge the line; while not skirmishing, I could see it being useful. Definitely not possible with a sarissa.

    On the other hand, sources highlight that Iphicrates reduced the weight of the equipment significantly in order to give them free movement - which implies that they could be used as skirmishers. Or perhaps a very rapid moving phalanx?

    I would consider giving them pike phalanx ability, actually - after all, Iphicrates rearmed hoplites and what better way for them to fight than in a formation that they knew? I can see some merit in a rapid moving quasi-Macedonian phalanx. And if Phillip copied it and then upgraded, then it must have worked, but perhaps had some disadvantages? Speculating here, but as you say, it's impossible to know what really happened as the sources are too vague. But I think it makes sense.

    I'll make this unit later today and show you the results.

    By the way, I'd really like to hear your thoughts of the Libyans in the roster - I want to add more of their units, but I can't think of anything. I've been thinking about some reform unit, including Libyans. A unit that could've happened if Cyrene actually remained independent for a long time, which of course didn't happen historically, but can in DeI...Another idea is to have mounted Libyan nobles, a medium melee, skirmisher cavalry, but the sources are silent about this as well.
    Last edited by Magas of Cyrene; June 18, 2017 at 09:10 AM.

  6. #126
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Are you thinking of changing Iphicratean Peltasts across all factions?

    Concerning Libyans, I think Cyrene would have progressed much like Carthage in this regard, with much of it´s military might depending on them.
    I think both Carthage´s and Cyrene´s unreformed levy Libyan Levy troops ought to be equipped with spears and wicker shields.

    IMO Cyrene would have reformed more on the Hellenistic model, whereas Carthage kind of did its own thing^^

    I wonder whether they would actually have had Libyan Pike units though,
    IMO it depends on whether one sees the Libyan Pikemen at Raphia as Cyrenaicans or as actual Libyans.

    One way they could have done it would have been to have ethnic units slowly becoming more Libyan,
    as f.e. Macedonians in Egypt becoming more Egyptian over the years.

    This IMO does neither exclusivly mean nor preclude ethnic mixing, I think there would have been a slow process of Libyans (or Egyptians, or Jews) being granted Land for military service as well as Hellenes marrying native women.
    Last edited by Maetharin; June 18, 2017 at 09:28 AM.
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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  7. #127

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    I think I'll change the peltasts just for Cyrene for now and see how they hold up in battle. I'm not even sure you can give javelins to a pike phalanx unit, will test it today.

    I agree, I think Libyans would have been gradually introduced into the army, just as it happened with Egyptians in the Ptolemaic Kingdom. The problem of course being, they were in conflict with them for a long time, but that coud conceivably be changed, as Libyans were fairly well integrated within the Cyrenean society:

    What is more remarkable is the assimilation of Libyans into the free population. It is possible that the Greek colonists brought few women of their own. At any rate, it apparently became quite normal for Greek men to take Libyan wives. A poem written by Pindar for a citizen of Cyrene in the time of Arkesilas IV (Pythian Ode, ix) relates how one of the early settlers at Cyrene (an ancestor of Pindar's client) competed successfully in an athletic competi*tion at Irasa, in the territory of theLibyan tribe of the Giligamai, to win the hand of a Libyan woman. That such marriages were common is proved by the constitutional regulations imposed on Cyreneby Ptolemy after 322 BC, which are preserved in an inscription, and which include the provision that the children of Cyrenaean men by Libyan wives should have citizen status.

    Now of course the question is how to represent the Libyans as actual units in the roster...

  8. #128
    Maetharin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    BTW, a little off topic, but something I´ve wondered for a while.
    Since you did the research for the Ptolemaic units in the Overhaul, could you answer these questions of mine?

    Right now there are the pike units:
    • Ptolemaic Peltastai
    • Ptolemaic Royal Pikemen (Agema)
    • Ptolemaic Cleruch Pikemen
    • Ptolemaic Thorax Pikemen
    • Ptolemaic Native Pikemen
    • Chosen Natives Pikemen


    It´s been a while since I´ve read Fischer-Bovet, so please forgive any mistaken assumptions on my part.
    Wouldn´t their position to the left of the Peltasts at Raphia suggest that the Agema was equipped with short Pikes? IMO it wouldn´t make sense to position the Peltasts in between them and the "Libyans" if they were equipped with long pikes and therefore less flexible.

    Concerning the Machimoi Pike units, I dimly remember that they were called Machimoi Epilektoi, and that they were being integrated into the Kleruchoi structure after the Egyptian rebelion to reduce the chance of another one.
    Wouldn´t it make more sense to merge the Cleruch Pikemen with the Machimoi Pikemen after the Thorax reforms into one unit?

    Thx in advance
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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  9. #129

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    I'll answer you in a PM a bit later mate Or we could take that topic of discussion to the Ptolemaic Preview thread, up to you.

    I tried implementing Iphicratean Peltasts with pikes and javelins, but it isn't that simple (as could be expected - I'll need to modify animations in order for this to work, so I'll leave that for later (if it's possible at all, that is). Anyway, here's their new look:

    Kyrenaioi Iphikratous Peltastai
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    What do you guys about these crests I've attached to the Phrygian helmet? Not sure if it looks good.
    Last edited by Magas of Cyrene; June 18, 2017 at 11:52 AM.

  10. #130
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Like them just as the previous units.

  11. #131
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Again, I rather think they´re an either or unit, but they´re definitly good looking^^

    Just one caveat, they´re called Peltasts, but these are bigger Pike shields.

    And thx, I´ll wait for your PM^^
    I´m always up for historical debate
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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  12. #132

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Greek strategos View Post
    Like them just as the previous units.
    Anything you'd change?

    And here's a better screenshot of the Kyrenaioi Kleruchoi Agema Phalangitai:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    Again, I rather think they´re an either or unit, but they´re definitly good looking^^

    Just one caveat, they´re called Peltasts, but these are bigger Pike shields.

    And thx, I´ll wait for your PM^^
    I´m always up for historical debate
    Yeah, it's a speculative unit, I'll admit, but I think it's a possible one You're right, I'll fix the shields.

    I'll try to answer you today evening in a PM
    Last edited by Magas of Cyrene; June 18, 2017 at 12:05 PM.

  13. #133
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
    Anything you'd change?

    And here's a better screenshot of the Kyrenaioi Kleruchoi Agema Phalangitai:
    hmmm Kyrenaiko Agema Kleruchoi Phalangitai would be better I think οr Kleruchoi Phalangitai Kyrenaiko Agema.
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; June 18, 2017 at 12:28 PM.

  14. #134

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Those crests are nice but they are missplaced a bit in the front part. Move it a bit backward to fit the helmet

  15. #135

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Greek strategos View Post
    hmmm Kyrenaiko Agema Kleruchoi Phalangitai would be better I think οr Kleruchoi Phalangitai Kyrenaiko Agema.
    Can I send you a whole list of units to check once it's finalized?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    Those crests are nice but they are missplaced a bit in the front part. Move it a bit backward to fit the helmet
    I don't know how to do it yet, probably have to edit the model

  16. #136
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
    Can I send you a whole list of units to check once it's finalized?
    Anytime...

  17. #137
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Actually, wouldn't they kind of leave out the Kyrenaiko?
    Just something I wonder about since 1.2 came out

    Alexander's Pikemen weren't called Makedonikoi Pezhetairoi, or were they?
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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  18. #138

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    Quote Originally Posted by Maetharin View Post
    Actually, wouldn't they kind of leave out the Kyrenaiko?
    Just something I wonder about since 1.2 came out

    Alexander's Pikemen weren't called Makedonikoi Pezhetairoi, or were they?
    Best ask Greek strategos about that

    Here's are the updated Iphicratean Peltasts:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The shield should probably be slightly bigger. That said, itdoes look like it would be possible to throw javelins with this kind of equipment, doesn't it? However, there are several problems - first of all, the unit doesn't use javelins, which I think is down not having a proper animation (probably can be fixed). Then there's the problem with the javelins they hold - it doesn't look very good when they got into a phalanx formation as it clips through the shields (not sure if this can be remedied somehow - maybe through editing the phalanx formation ability, if it can be used to make one of the weapon slots disappear; not sure whether that'd be possible at all though).

    Here's what happens when it clips:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I realize it's a lot of effort, but a very unique unit would be made if I could get it work somehow I'll try to find out whether it's possible at all!
    Last edited by Magas of Cyrene; June 20, 2017 at 04:42 PM.

  19. #139
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    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    What are these guys doing taking Mama´s priced tableware to the battlefield?
    Why not simply use the usual pelte?

    BTW, how did you get those shields to stay at that position?
    Do you do 3D modeling?
    "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse!"

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  20. #140

    Default Re: [IN PROGRESS] Cyrene Expanded

    These are the Cretan archers shields from DeI, just wanted to test it out to see how it looked, I don't do 3D modeling

    The idea was to make it look like this:



    And yes, the shield needs to be bigger

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