Rate RoM Dale units

[Sk1p56]

RISE OF MORDOR Team would like to know your opinion on Dale units.

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SPEAR MILITIA

WATCH-POST SENTRIES

RIVERMEN

YEOMEN

NORTHMEN SCOUTS

LAKETOWN GUARDS

RANGERS OF RHOVANION

VINELAND WATCHMEN

VINELAND YARDPATROLLERS

VINELAND GUARDS

SHIPMEN

MERCHANT ESCORTS

DALIAN SPEARGUARDS

DALIAN SWORDSMEN

MARKSMEN OF DALE

BARDINGS

DALE CAVALRY REGIMENT

RHOVANION REGENTS

CREDITS: Enpremi

All screenshots are taken by Neitan (Sk1p56)

[Alexander Eolo]

feels like the unit leader is compensating for something. rate: 11/mordor. would burn dale again - ign

[Radboud]

Question: Why does the unit captain use an Uruk-Hai (like in the LotR films) styled sword? It doesn't strike me as a practical design. Other than that, stunning stuff.

[alphasquad]

Awesome units, stunning details and a lot of work i guess :laugher: however, dalian swordsmen and dalian guardsmen should have a little bit of variation in my opinion, for example some of them can have dirty shields and proved armour and this can be apply to Gondor too. For the low tier units, maybe a little bit more details like emblems and more colour.

[iHeledir]

I think that the Helmets and Shields of the Vineland Guard are a litte over the Top. Aswell as the Vineland Watchmen Spears.
But over all awesome Design.

[Maetharin]

Aside from the Captain´s sword and the vineland watchmen spears looking a bit ridiculous, pretty awesome!
I´d recommend adding Captains with similar armament to their own unit for melee units.

May I also suggest a two handed sword shock infantry unit in style of the current captain?

[Commissar Caligula_]

Question: Why does the unit captain use an Uruk-Hai (like in the LotR films) styled sword? It doesn't strike me as a practical design. Other than that, stunning stuff.

Its a war cleaver, not a weapon strictly limited to the Uruk-Hai Berserkers necessarily.

[Gamersville101]

this proves how sexy your units are!

[Drag0]

Aside from the Captain´s sword and the vineland watchmen spears looking a bit ridiculous, pretty awesome!
I´d recommend adding Captains with similar armament to their own unit for melee units.

May I also suggest a two handed sword shock infantry unit in style of the current captain?

I agree with you. Dale captains better with sword, shield and cloak.

[Karl von Clausewitz]

Looks amazing. Just wow

[AlexiosThe1st]

I espoused this view on another thread but it's perhaps more meaningful here, and I also believe what I was saying was misunderstood then.


This very well might have been a design choice on your part, but I think more variety within a unit immediately improves the quality of the unit. I'll focus specifically on Dale, since they're a faction with rich colors.

The Dalian Swordsmen: every single man in the unit is wearing almost exactly the same attire. Personally I think the unit would look much better with more diversity in the helmets/armor they wear and their shields. Some can have different designs or changes in the color scheme. Another possibility is varying cloaks.

Again a uniform for Dalian units might have been a design choice, but I think the units could do with a little more variety within the unit.

[Maetharin]

I espoused this view on another thread but it's perhaps more meaningful here, and I also believe what I was saying was misunderstood then.


This very well might have been a design choice on your part, but I think more variety within a unit immediately improves the quality of the unit. I'll focus specifically on Dale, since they're a faction with rich colors.

The Dalian Swordsmen: every single man in the unit is wearing almost exactly the same attire. Personally I think the unit would look much better with more diversity in the helmets/armor they wear and their shields. Some can have different designs or changes in the color scheme. Another possibility is varying cloaks.

Again a uniform for Dalian units might have been a design choice, but I think the units could do with a little more variety within the unit.

I disagree.

AFAIK the Dalian Swords-/Spearmen represent a professional soldiery after Dale has reestablished itself as the major military power in the region.
Their arms and armour are supplied by the state and come from dwarfen blacksmiths, therefore a certain uniformity can be expected.

[Chaman]

Yeah they all look great. Can't do the poll, or even edit my posts. Assume it's just my lack of posts.

[AlexiosThe1st]

I disagree.

AFAIK the Dalian Swords-/Spearmen represent a professional soldiery after Dale has reestablished itself as the major military power in the region.
Their arms and armour are supplied by the state and come from dwarfen blacksmiths, therefore a certain uniformity can be expected.

A certain level of uniformity, surely. But historically, such uniformity was rarely seen until early modern armies began taking shape. Being a professional soldier does not mean that the state will provide arms and armor. It was often the opposite. If one wanted to be payed as a professional soldier one had to provide his own arms in most cases.

This doesn't need to be the case in Dale, of course. Since we've a lot of latitude we could go down the uniform road. Both uniformity and non-uniformity are entirely plausible for a professional force. But from an aesthetic standpoint, I think a little diversity looks much much better.

What of the Shipmen or the merchant escort? Are their arms provided by the state as well? I think that's highly unlikely. Those two units especially might be a mix of accouterments. Or the Laketown Guard as well. In Oakley's documentary on the guard, it seemed rather clear that Laketown would be unable to wholly fund a uniform for their guard.

Ultimately, the level of diversity that I find most aesthetically pleasing is that of the spear militia. Varying shields etc. Nothing outrageous.

[Teutonic]

A certain level of uniformity, surely. But historically, such uniformity was rarely seen until early modern armies began taking shape. Being a professional soldier does not mean that the state will provide arms and armor. It was often the opposite. If one wanted to be payed as a professional soldier one had to provide his own arms in most cases.

This doesn't need to be the case in Dale, of course. Since we've a lot of latitude we could go down the uniform road. Both uniformity and non-uniformity are entirely plausible for a professional force. But from an aesthetic standpoint, I think a little diversity looks much much better.

What of the Shipmen or the merchant escort? Are their arms provided by the state as well? I think that's highly unlikely. Those two units especially might be a mix of accouterments. Or the Laketown Guard as well. In Oakley's documentary on the guard, it seemed rather clear that Laketown would be unable to wholly fund a uniform for their guard.

Ultimately, the level of diversity that I find most aesthetically pleasing is that of the spear militia. Varying shields etc. Nothing outrageous.

I agree with every single word
The Shipmen and Merchant escort especially. The models are great but it doesn't make sense these units are totally the same. The regular Dale troops can be almost uniform. Or nearly uniform- they are so colourful that I need to look quite closely to be sure that they are the same.

It takes lots of work to make different models so the Shipmen and Merchant escort could be mixed up by introducing bits and pieces from other units. Same for the Laketown guards, who can get a few militia items, for example.

[AlexiosThe1st]

I agree with Teutonic. I know how much effort goes into model making, my intent is not to insensitively demand more labor.

[Maetharin]

Well it depends on your definition of a professional.
To make it more clear, I meant professionals in the manner of a professional citizen soldier, who was hired by his own state and supplied by it.
Not in the manner of mercenaries or sellswords, who could be anyone, as long as they sold their services.

I´d say there´s pretty much only one logical supplier for soldiers like I meant.
A mountain full of dwarven blacksmiths right at their door,
it would be stupid not to use the best armour available if they have the money for it.

The merchant and shipmen escorts on the other hand could indeed use some mail and f.e. studded gambesons.
But they would be mercenaries rather than soldiers.

[Commissar Caligula_]

Its a balancing act with giving units more variations.
The more time we spend on a single unit, the less units that are going to be made overall. As I said on the other thread, each Gondor unit got remade at least 2 or 3 times, and there are 18 units each for Dale and Gondor at the moment.
So I think for the moment, its preferable to make less units per faction, and less variation within a single unit so that more factions can be made. Then when a decent amount of factions are done, we can go back and add extra units to each one.

Completing Dale and Gondor, we only had 3 modellers active. If we're going to go faster, and have more unit variations we really need more people to join the team who have the level of quality required.

[AlexiosThe1st]

Well it depends on your definition of a professional.
To make it more clear, I meant professionals in the manner of a professional citizen soldier, who was hired by his own state and supplied by it.
Not in the manner of mercenaries or sellswords, who could be anyone, as long as they sold their services.

I´d say there´s pretty much only one logical supplier for soldiers like I meant.
A mountain full of dwarven blacksmiths right at their door,
it would be stupid not to use the best armour available if they have the money for it.

The merchant and shipmen escorts on the other hand could indeed use some mail and f.e. studded gambesons.
But they would be mercenaries rather than soldiers.

Yes. I'm using the same definition of professional. And once more, historically professional soldiers were not provided arms and armor by the state, even when that state was his own and was paying him as a soldier. In the vast majority of cases, that is. Not until the early modern armies were uniforms provided by the state, and even then often arms and armor would not be provided (the polish hussars come to mind, who had to provide their own equiptment, despite being the most elite soldier of the Commonwealth).

But more in line with our analogous time period, If you wanted to be payed as a man at arms, you needed to provide your own harness and your own horse such that you could function like a man at arms. It was not provided by the state.

Even the Romans did not posses a strict, state funded military uniform. It wouldn't be uncommon to see various styles of armor within a single legion.

And I agree, surely the Dwarves would provide arms. But it's entirely reasonable to say that the individual soldiers would have commissioned their own armor and arms to their own sense of needed protection and sense of aesthetics. The state of Dale wouldn't necessarily buy it. If history is any guide to this discussion, the soldiers would buy their own.

@Caligula: Makes sense. This is only my opinion on aesthetics and what to me makes most sense in a pseudo-medieval setting. I'd happily offer my services if I had the talent, which I don't, and the time, which I don't. Keeping up with public desire must be a nightmare with such a small crew.

[Maestro1]

I have to defend the uniformity of the Dale roster here over much (perhaps too much) sought-after variation:

The story behind the entire Dale roster is that it emerges along with the realm itself. Dale starts as a ruined but upstart nation. It relies on fishing and farming and lacks any infrastructure, funding or even legal systems. Thus the following tasks for people in Dale: fishing along the rivers, farming, or hunting. Ergo, Rivermen, Yeomen, Northmen Scouts and Spear Militia. These units have several variations in their artwork.
King Bard builds this realm up and leaves a properly working kingdom to his successor Bain. Under his rule, trade and infrastructure is growing, much like Europe emerged from the Dark Ages of the post-Attila era, to the early medieval societies under Charlemagne and others. There was trade again, and infrastructure, learning and legislation. It was almost a renaissance. And so it went with Dale: it emerged again, become more daring and strong. Trade routs were set-up and went further. The kingdom expanded and guarded its frontiers, and ships would sail again down the river Running to Dorwinion and return with a large cargo of silks, gems and riches. This trading aspect allows the Merchant Escorts and the Shipmen. The border protection would be extended with Watch-post Sentries and Rangers. All of the trade-protecting troops would be hired by richer folk and caravan owners, and subsidised and armoured by the state. And because the state pays for their armour, all of them get rather the same thing. And for the watch-post sentries and the rangers, the subsidies are even larger because border protections is a collective good.
In the last phases, a remuneration reform takes place, much like in the later medieval eras and in the later Roman eras under Gaius Marius: a standing army is introduced and fully kept up by the state. And that means almost full uniformity. There were no different armour types in the legions. At least not at the same time. They were changed, but all would have either piece A or would all get piece B. So it goes with the Dalian third tier units, and hence the names such as 'regiment' and '-guard'.
And of course, tier 4 are those who add their own materials to the state's resources, thus being even richer-armoured: the Vineland Guards, being aristocrats, and the Bardings, being that as well.

I hope you now better understand Enpremi's work. I made the roster and used this story and logic (at least, that is what I think of it) reasons, and Enpremi did a damn fine job with his interpretations.