All enemy's units clumped together. WTH?

[Ravenwood]

Installed the game back after years, then did clean install of NTW3 7.1b, launched the SP campaign as France. Every battle starts with large portion of enemy's units (seems like 30-50% at least) clumped together on the same spot. Looks absurdal and if I happen to be able to bombard them with artillery right from the start, it's a meat grinder - only when hit they start to rush head on without any plan towards me. Never had such proplems in NTW before...

[Stoffy]

What's new, it's alwaya been an issue with whatever version of NTW. If only someone could start all over again and design a game from top to bottom with decent AI.

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[Ravenwood]

What's new, it's alwaya been an issue with whatever version of NTW. If only someone could start all over again and design a game from top to bottom with decent AI.

Really?I could swear it wasn't like that...This makes campaign basicaly unplayable,no fun from battles at all

[Archaeopterix]

Installed the game back after years, then did clean install of NTW3 7.1b, launched the SP campaign as France. Every battle starts with large portion of enemy's units (seems like 30-50% at least) clumped together on the same spot. Looks absurdal and if I happen to be able to bombard them with artillery right from the start, it's a meat grinder - only when hit they start to rush head on without any plan towards me. Never had such proplems in NTW before...

I think that depends of the version... I remember see that once time (in the 4.0 if I not bad remember), but aplying it (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...gn-AI-Settings), all left properly fixed.

Anyway, I installed some days ago the 7.1 version, and I dont see that... check the MOD version, or try that fix I put above.

good luck.

[Lord Davn]

I installed some days ago the 7.1 version, and I dont see that... check the MOD version, or try that fix I put above.

That clumping or BLOB will occasionally occur when the AI is being attacked and on the defense. Usually they sort themselves out and take up their battle line positions.

[Bran Mac Born]

They should start the battle IN FORMATION. This is a game killing bug that needs to be fixed. I have not seen this in other mods. I fixed it in an earlier version now it is back and old fix does not work.

[TheRomanRuler]

NTW3 Campaign battle AI,

The NTW3 v5.1 mod ~Campaigns of the Coalition game has all Major and Minor factions playable which include many new customized units, uniforms & stats that were unique to each faction during this time period. There is also a huge improvement with the campaign & battle AI with the addition of Universal Ai Mod by The Hedge Knight.

Due to the many changes mentioned above the AI may behave a little different than in other mods. It was noticed early in the Coalition Campaign Siege battles that the AI may deploy in a blob or mass formation. This may be due to the high number of Armed Citizen units that appear early in the game before the AI factions have a chance to build up regular army units in their capital (during the first 6 turns or so). You may find it easier to autocalc these early Siege battles to save time. Please note it may take the AI a few minutes to figure out how to organize them with the regular units as shown below.

I now set up my army units in the rear of the deployment box and send out cav & skirmisher units to scout and make contact with the enemy. This is more realistic battle tactics and gives the AI time to organize. As you move further into the campaign you will see the AI deploy quicker with more Elite units in battle. Once deployed, the AI will give you a good fight.

The AI seams to do a little better later in the campaign game when there are more regular units and less armed citizen units.



The battle AI deploys the regular units quickly but some of the armed citizen units may start out in a blob. (below)



The General comes over (to the right) and starts to organize his troops. It takes a little time but the AI does get the armed citizen units sorted out and ready to fight. Almost what you'd expect to see in a real battle from untrained troops. (below)

If it applies to other units besides armed citizenry, i am pretty sure same fix works: just wait until they have sorted themselves before you start doing anything.

[Bran Mac Born]

They have not sorted themselves out they are stuck together like glue. I walked up Cav unit to the blob and it did nothing! I then attacked the blob and they started in all directions. They finally formed a defensive line. They need to create a new formation bin file for the mod.

[userstupidname]

It is happening me aswell with semi-consistency, ruining my Sweden experience as winning over a superior army was made laughably easy as the danish army just stod in 2 clumps.

I love the mod but can't play with this bug

[airborne guy]

LoL CA no longer supports NTW...This has been an issue since release of the game. Com eon man, 8 years now...or something like that

[TheRomanRuler]

LoL CA no longer supports NTW...This has been an issue since release of the game. Com eon man, 8 years now...or something like that

I don`t think anyone was blaming anyone...

[Bran Mac Born]

I have played most of the mods and this happens with this mod. I never saw this with the vanilla game. From what I remember is the unit types for placement in blocks in the formations and that you can assign the name of the unit types to the blocks-if the unit type is unknown then it get put on the same block-thus the stacking? Unit sticking together and not moving maybe has to do to unit spacing and unit mass and ratio size? Someone with unit formation modding skill should make a special formations bin file for this mod. Maybe Hedge Knight?

[Lord Davn]

Lord Wesley has seen a few occasions of the blob occuring in the vanilla game but this issue has been a problem for our NTW3 SP Campaign mod for some time now. We've tried many corrections and fixes for it which has limited it primarily to battles were the AI is on the defense. One of the additions for the v72 SPC mod update was to add custom general units and make them cheaper so the AI would field more Generals with their armys. I will redo the bin file for defense formations to see if that helps.

[JaM]

i can confirm this sometimes happen in vanilla, or even in Hedge Knight's groupformation.bin file.. usually it happens to irregular units (Noticed it happening in Egyptian campaign) which means some formation setup for irregulars might be problematic and causing this placement. i would experiment more with this, but frankly, i dont have groupformation tool working on my pc..

[Lord Davn]

I can confirm this sometimes happen in vanilla, or even in Hedge Knight's groupformation.bin file.. usually it happens to irregular units (Noticed it happening in Egyptian campaign) which means some formation setup for irregulars might be problematic and causing this placement. I would experiment more with this, but frankly, I don't have groupformation tool working on my pc..

Thanks for the info, here is the download for the bin file editor: https://www.mediafire.com/?7g0xda922317lp7

We have been using Hedge Knight's older groupformation.bin file for the NTW3 SPC mod and that appears to be what's happening. As you can see from the screen shot the AI is on the defense with cavalry and grenadier units moving into formation but the lower line, militia and armed citizen units are stuck in a clump. We will have to update thegroupformation.bin file to see if it helps fix the clumping (blob) problem, so any help would be appreciated.

[JaM]

yeah, i actually had Sinuhet's editor, but this editor is very limited, as while i allows to export file, it doesnt allow importing it back.. There is a different one available, but requires jruby, and i always had problem running anything on it.

oh, and btw, i've also seen this happening with reinforcements.. on some maps it seems like they have single point of concentration, which is very small, therefore they all end up in such blob. But on defensive, its definitely groupformation issue.

[Lord Davn]

yeah, i actually had Sinuhet's editor, but this editor is very limited, as while i allows to export file, it doesn't allow importing it back.. There is a different one available, but requires jruby, and i always had problem running anything on it.

oh, and btw, i've also seen this happening with reinforcements.. on some maps it seems like they have single point of concentration, which is very small, therefore they all end up in such blob. But on defensive, its definitely groupformation issue.

I usually check the reinforcing units as they come onto the battle map but have never seen them clump together. They may be bundled up at first but then spread out and march to the fight. I'll be discussing the groupformation.bin files with HK this week.

[JaM]

I think the perfect groupformation file should make the double line formation the standard one for everybody, not the single line. Of course, these two lines need to be at some distance from each other, so bounced off shots wont hit the second line when aimed at first line. I think main problem with Napoleon Total War game is the fact CA developed combat model based on company model, and not on battalion model. That's probably the reason why they take out the column formation completely.. so seeing any youtube videos with opposing armies being deployed in one single line just makes me scream every time i see it.

[musketer]

Hi Jam. I myself always set (both in defence and attack) line infantry in long single line with light inf on the front and cavalry and artillery on the flanks or the cavalry behind the main line. Can you explain to me why use double infantry line? It always seemed to me that it is useless to only half of my gunners fired while the other half stood behind them and did nothing. Well, unless I really have no idea how double line should look and work

[JaM]

imagine playing a human player who would not use same length as you... then he would concentrate his forces against parts of your line, keeping reserves for later, so he would be able to crush part of your line faster than your other end would be able to get to that location...

In all my battles, i'm using four infantry units grouped into double line. In case enemy routs one of those units, im able to move second line forward, and keep fighting.. Also, if enemy tries to outflank me with cavalry, i can keep my front units in line, while second line goes for square, with first line sometimes falling back into protection of those squares.

Yet my most favorite tactics in attack is using Ordre mixte with two units in line, and two in column formation in the second line. then i engage the enemy with the front, while second line can maneuver around the enemy... but of course, these tactics cant be used alone.. usually i have artillery going forward, on the flank of such formation, then, if AI is still in line, my artillery can fire deadly oblique shots into enemy line.. I usually use at least three such blocks, two on attack, one always refused and ready to reinforce if needed. If enemy comes with other units to help, it usually goes in shortest path possible, which also means these units are one behind another,which makes them perfect artillery target..

Single line is the least flexible formation ever, you lose any control over battle, it makes engagement linear thing with each unit fighting opposing unit... yet Napoleon's prime tactics was about concentration of force so you would outnumber the enemy on the critical point, while remaining units would just delay the enemy elsewhere (i usually use light infantry and skirmishers as refused flank, with some cavalry in case AI wants to outflank me. so while my infantry is breaking through, Lights are delaying incoming units)

Same thing applies to AI. It works a lot better, if it can have reserves behind primary line, as usually, front line is spent in the attack, so having fresh units coming into fight is quite crucial. But important thing is the formation file, as that second line must be away from the first, so bounced roundshots wont damage both lines, and musket bullets hitting front line wont cause casualties in the second.

my usual deployment look like this:



but of course, everything depends on terrain features.. if there is some hill or forest in the middle, things are even easier..


Important thing to realize is that usually, units shoot forward, therefore there is not that much opportunity to fire from two units at one unit if you are in single line.

but of course, im speaking about my game setup, i'm no that familiar with NTW3 therefore dont know how speed of movement is handled. (how fast unit move vs rate of fire)