Campaign idea

[tone]

I was just thinking, with all the new legions, how about a custom campaign that starts later. One of the things that can easily happen playing a RTW campaign is that you never get beyond the hastati, principe, triarii stage.

It would be great to get to have something starting in say 44BC or so that gets you straight into a full scale conflict with Germania, Parthia / Sarmatia or whoever.

Maybe I'm just biased cos I'm doing the work on the legions?!!!

[dvk901]

Not at all...I've thought of the same thing. It's a good idea.

[Tyr]

Probably wont believe me, but I was going to post allmost the exact same suggestion as well. Not only will it make more use of those superb legions, but will also be very interesting.

I see Tone you have suggested 44BC, I assume because of Caesar's death. I had in mind 37BC, where the Empire was divided between Augustus and Antony. Imagine, two Roman factions - one with a unique Egyptian cultural influence, and a very good civil war.

The flaw with my idea is that Antony and Cleopatra were defeated rleativley quickly; which would not happen with the RTW engine, yet it would stop the problem of having a superpowered Roman Empire that would quickly swarm over the map; which is even more unrealistic in my opinion. And there is a gameplay benefit; imagine taking contol of Antony's part of the empire; with a cultural twist to it, a mix of Egyptian and Roman units, and the threat of Parthia and another Roman Empire!!

With a lot of current factions gone, there would be room for many new original ones. I think it would be a great idea.


Rest of post removed - no longer support this idea.

See the 80BC start date idea below

[tone]

Have you looked at The First Trirumvirate mod? It's excellent and you quickly find yourself up against serious opposition - all the opponent units have 2 hitpoints each!
A port to BI would be good.
It'd be good to do something sooner rather than later so I guess it'd be good to keep simple and not to make too many changes.

[Tyr]

See 80BC Idea Below

[dvk901]

You don't REALLY like the Mundus Map do you?
Seriously, wow, you guys are talking about a whole new mod!

It's an interesting concept, and I'm sure there would be plenty of trouble to cause the Romans....especially with them involved in a civil war. Interesting concept though, of having a 'latin\ptolemic' faction, which in fact was what Antony and Cleopatra would've been, in conflict with the Romans who had not yet annexed Egypt. I don't think such a mod has ever been done from quite that perspective.
Dacia would of course be a good contenter, along with a number of German tribes...and don't forget the troublesome Iberian tribes. Cimmerian Bosporan was still around at this time (and troublesome to Rome if I'm not mistaken) so they could stay. Bactria, Parthia, Numidia (a somewhat 'shady' ally of Rome).

The 'Roman' faction could actually be the Ptolemic Kingdom with the Legions available to it that Antony took/had with him. This was actually a rather odd mix of Egyptian and Roman troops, ships..etc. Probably have to mix up the character pictures...BI definitely.

I'm still thinking I may want to convert RS to BI anyway...

[tone]

Keep it going Tyr, would love to convince the great Emperor! Only a matter of time before he succumbs.

[dvk901]

Tyr, you're a riot
I installed BI the other day and started looking it over....e-gods...so brilliant in some areas, so disgusting in others. It's no wonder so few played it, it's a historical joke, and playing it is like strangling yourself. I found it to be no fun because most of what was going on was ridiculous and hard with no good purpose.
HOWEVER, the non-existant 'east empire rebels', and the 'western empire rebels' provide a ready made plugin for the revolt of Antony and Cleopatra AND a massive Celtic uprising while the Empire is in the midst of this civil war.

I rather like the idea...less factions to deal with, but more powerful ones.

Factions:

Romans
Sarmatians
German Tribes (maybe a couple)
Gallic\Celtic Tribes (maybe a couple)
Bosporan
Dacia
Mauretania\Numidia (or both)
Parthia
Pontus
Armenia (if they were still around)
and of course, the Latin\Egyptian Antony & Cleopatra.

We could make the 'Vandals' the Germans, so they start attacking the Empire quickly....but tone them down so they don't start with so many armies. The Dacians would be fine as they are, and a pain to Rome. Pit the Bosporons and the 'Sarmatians' at war as they were constantly......many possibilities.

Let's keep toying with the idea and come up with some solid factions and historical info.

[Tyr]

See 80BC Idea Below

[dvk901]

Since it is rather difficult to predict what the game will do, and how long factions last...your right about the problem of Antony and Cleopatra lasting too long. However, I doubt it could be programed that they kill themselves either...so one is stuck with the hypothetical no matter what. I'm thinking that perhaps by using the same 'engine' that causes the West Empire to fall apart, as in BI, and the fictitious 'eastern empire rebels' to emerge, perhaps the essential characters could 'emerge' at the right times...with Armenia, Egypt, and whatever other provinces falling to Antony and his Queen....and perhaps another rebellion in the North involving the Celts or whomever. This combined with very powerful attacks from German tribes and Parthia...basically every hostile Roman neighbor, would certainly make for an interesting campaign of trying to fend all this off...even with the very powerful (but limited in number) Roman Legions. I don't know how much was going on during this time all told, but I don't see any way to make it a challenging campaign worth playing unless it was much like the BI campaign of trying to fend off the whole dang world, basically.
Of course, the greatest hurdle will be converting BI to be RTW...there is so much that would have to be changed.

On the other hand, the much easier and quicker way to do this would be to use the RTWv1.5 engine. Reason being, this campaign could be written for Roma Surrectum very easily. Put Numidia back where they were controlling a good deal of the North African interior...hostile to Rome will give the Empire a lot to consider along the coast. Eliminate the Seleucids (non-playable) and give Parthia the Middle East, with Armenia and Pontus in there for good measure. Bosporons and much larger Sarmatian faction at war. More advanced and BI-like Germans pressing into the northern Empire. Hostile Celts with ships and hatred for Rome ready to take Gaul back. Couple rebellious regions in northern Spain. Egypt with Antony and Cleopatra as its leaders...(dead Seleucid made egyptian culture because you have to have one) and Egypt made 'greek' with Roman legions at it's disposal (all those in the area). You'd have a huge Empire to defend from the start, with attacks from everywhere going on, and a civil war in the south.

What I'm saying is, this could be done in a couple months in RTW....a conversion to BI could take a year to figure out and make good. I am going to work on a conversion....but I think it's going to take a long time. I just don't know eneough about it yet.

[Tyr]

I know, it would be a challenge and time consuming; but without the BI engine I dont think the full potentail of this game could be realised. But I still think it would be agreat idea. May I suggest an approach that could be taken for the new campaign?

Version 1: Very first release of Roma Surrectum (In two-three weeks (?))
Version 2:Large update to RS. Tone's new skies and legions, Northern
Rangers new Map(If they are not done in the first release), new units, other needed changes etc (Within one month)
Version 3: Re-Release of Roma Surrectum for Barbarian Invasion platform (this is the hard and long bit)
Version 4: Release includes BETA of Roma Expugnadae
Version 5: Release includes more or less final versions of both campaigns
Version 6:Final Final version, only small udates and bug-fixes after this. Rest and move on to new projects!

Once Version 3 is done, with the conversion of Roma Surrectum to Barbarian Invasion, I dare say the creation of Roma Expugnadae will only take a short time. Obviously, it is very easy for me to say this, I'm no modder, and I'm not the one who will have to do all the work!!!

If you are serious about this, and have decide on the start date, I've done some light research, and will formulate a possible factionlist; if you wish.

EDIT: oops, I've written Roma Expugnadae, just my name for the theoretical new campaign (Its the name of my word folder where I've stored faction overviews, possible factions to include)

[Elrond]

Why do we need to wait 2-3 weeks before we release v1?

from what i have heard it is virtually complete and i would recommend that it is release before the end of 2006 - people are losing interest in RTW mods - the invasio barbarorum forum has been like a ghost town for the past 6 weeks.

Since the devs forum was added (at my request) there has been a hell of a lot of activity here but virtually none in the main forum.

To casual viewers of the forum the mod could be viewed to be dieing - we know that that certinaly inst true but other people don't.

I would strongly recommend a front page message with links to the forum and a preview thread showing screenshots of all the main features of RS and announcing the release date for RS - 31st of December 6pm (GMT) would get more interest that normal.

A patch will need to be released within a week or two of release anyway - every mod has at least one or two bugs - and therefore if there are one or two minor things which there wasnt time to add in v1 then they can be added in the patch.

The common mistake of a lot of mod teams is make bigger and bigger plans which never get completed - only once v1 is released should there be discussion on future projects.

A final point for dvk - i looked through another mod (i wont say which one) and i found that about a 1/4 of the files in it were unchanged from BI 1.6 - and therefore they didnt need to be part of the download. 400mb + is extremely big compared with other RTW mods (EB being the exception) and therefore it might be a good idea to look through the RS download and check that every file is necessary.

[dvk901]

First of all, I'm waiting for Tone to finish the Imperial Legions before a release. Right now, they all use one model waiting for the new ones.

Secondly, I can't release before the end of the year because I'm leaving tomorrow for Tennessee....won't be back until Jan 1.

Third, Roma Surrectum is going to be huge. I simply can't help it. I've trimmed everything I could,(probably knocked 60mb off it) but it's not possible to cut much else. In fact, it's bigger than before (because of the music). The reasons are many...inclusion of all BI buildings is probably the biggest. Of course a BI mod wouldn't have to include them. And it isn't a 'half way job' either. They should appear in city views and the whole nine-yards. Also, almost every file in RTW has been altered or rewritten because of the units changes, music, units removed (dogs, pigs, etc.). All their corresponding entries in other files had to be removed as well to get rid of errors. RS is a TOTAL conversion...well, almost. I'll probably have to cut it into pieces so it won't be so huge to download all at once.

Fourth, I really don't care if only ten people download this mod. I've done it for my own enjoyment and that of anyone who wises to play it. Once it's released I'll post notifications on the RTR site and the other RTW site...can't think of the name now. If there's no\little interest...oh well. I'm not looking for any glory in this. It's been/will be fun to work on it with others who like it, and that's all I care about.

Christmas season is a slow time of year anyway....I think some people will still be around next year.

As far as the additional campaigns...well, I'm taking the BI framework with me on vacation, and all the RTW files as well to start converting it. Fortunately, as Narses says, BI has most of the stuff in it anyway.

[Northern Ranger]

if music takes up a large amount of space, why don't you upload it separately? A lot of other mods have their music separate
btw, this idea for a new campaign sounds great! Just hope it can be done

[Elrond]

I didnt realize u were going on holiday,

but the faster the mod is released the more popular it will,

anyway its ur choice when it is release but u have heard my opinion,

i agree with northern ranger - separate the music into a separate download - virtually all mods do this - i personally don't bother to download the music and prefer the quicker download

[Tyr]

See 80BC Idea Below

[dvk901]

Actually, I would prefer you didn't do that, Narses. Tyr puts a lot of thought into his posts...as we all do...so let them be his, and yours, yours. No big deal, but it's confusing to me. I do, believe it or not, read everyone's posts very carefully, and derive from them many of the changes that have been made to RS. So I take each individuals thoughts seriously.

By the way, I knocked another 50mb off the RS install by converting all of Riczu's strat characters and ships to a .dds format. I didn't realize they were so big.....his mod alone was 53mb! In .dds form...it's 5mb. Quite a difference. And yes, as far as music is concerned, it will be available as an 'optional' package simply because music is kind of a personal preference anyway. Although, I think the new music is very nice....a ton better than the RTW version anyway.

As far as this new campaign...first, I should say I have NO scripting knowledge or talent. That said, I really LIKE this idea of a civil war mod involving the Romans and Egypt, but I still believe this mod needs to focus on factions that had some effect on, interaction with, or role to play with the Romans. Therefore, ditch the Indian stuff because it has no bearing on Western European developement. There were so many tribes and enemies for Rome to deal with I'm sure we can find more than enough to fill the bill. Besides, I want any mod created to be able to use both the Mundus and IceTorque maps. They offer in themselves totally different challenges, and I like them both.

I got connected at my daughter's, by the way, so I'll check in from time to time. I didn't take the game with me, but I did take all the relevent BI and RTW files with me in order to study this monster and begin converting it.

[tone]

Guys,
As soon as I'm back from holiday (Jan 2nd pm UK time) I'll get cracking with finishing the imperial legions and skies. I've got all the ideas for the legions planned out.
Took some nice photos of skies down in Cornwall.

[Tyr]

Additional Roma Surrectum Campaign

Only a day ago I posted concerning the new additional campaign, concerning a 34BC start date. But I have been thinking, and have begun to lose enthusiasm for the idea; and suggest a change in start date for the planned campaign.

First I should explain my reasons for going off my previous idea:

Realism: I know, I even stated it did not other me. But the more I think about it, the more I see the glaring flaws. This had not so much to do with the idea itself, as with the RTW engine. The Antony & Cleopatra faction will just not do what is expected. I can just see it now, the said faction conquering most of the map, defeating the Romans, or more probably; allying with the Romans and sticking around for a long time. Even if they do crumble, it wouldn’t be as in real life, with all of Antony’s holdings being taken by Augustus; but more likely the Parthians would push them off the map and inherit their empire, making it difficult for the Roman AI to expand in to its historic locations of Asia.

The Factions: You know I’m no fan of the Ice Torque map – in my opinion it doesn’t suit the needs of Roma Surrectum, let alone this idea. On Ice Tourque’s map the only factions would be Antony, Rome, Celts, Germans, Sarmatians and Parthians.

Appeal: I think this idea is of limited appeal. Look how few factions there are, most will play Antony & Cleopatra a few times then leave this campaign alone. Making more Celtic and Germanic Tribes will only mean there is more ‘clone’ factions. And I can see the Parthians and Romans having things to easy and dominating the map.

Time & Development: If the above problem was to be dealt with by sticking with Mundus Magnus, think how long it would take; especially as the work rests on one person. The idea of a new campaign was not to create a new mod, but to offer a way to diving in at a later date so as to experience the new legions in all there glory.



The new start date I propose is 80BC, inspired after I watched the Spartacus DVD. After reading the following you should see why I believe 80BC to be a good start date.

80BC – Timeline of Events

• 80BC Sulla resigned dictatorship, restoring the Senate.
• 83 - 72BC Rebellion of Quintus Sertorius in Iberia.
• 75BC - 65BC Third Mithridatic War
• 73BC Rebellion of Spartacus
• 62BC Catiline Conspiracy
• 49BC – 45BC, Winter Julius Caesar crosses the Rubicon, start of Caesar’s Civil War
• 44BC – 42BC ‘Liberators’ Civil War (Between the Third Triumvirate and Caesars Assassins, the former holding the Western provinces, the latter holding the Eastern Provinces)
• 44BC – 36BC Sicilian Revolt; by Sextus Pompey, Pompey the Great’s son. Managed to hold all of Sicily, cut Grain supplies to Rome. Rome even agreed a peace deal.
• 32BC – 30BC Final Civil War of the Republic: Mark Antony against Augustus (I think you already know something about this one!!)

Roman Empire at this time (N.B. most provinces in Spain at this time were in rebellion):



Faction List
1. Gauls
2. Germans
3. Britons
4. Iberians
5. Getai
6. Maurentania/Numidia
7. Sarmatians
8. Parthia
9. Pontus
10. Armenia
11. Ptolemaic Egypt
12. Seleucia
13. Crete
14. Kush
15. Roman Empire
16. Roman Rebels
17. Spartacus (Emergent)
18. Hispania (Romano – Iberian faction, representing rebellion of Quintus Sertorius. Just a proto-type name)
19. And of course, the Free People.

I think most will agree that the faction list is more varied. Before I go on I think the list needs to be ‘justified’

• Britons: For this era inclusion is no longer unrealistic, Caesar invaded twice. Will make the conquest of Britain harder.
• Seleucia: Yes, still around. Only with Antioch and a few minor Syrian cities under there control, but still around.
• Crete: Your probably thinking pointless Greek state, but it did put up a fight against the Romans; from wikipedia:

On the pretext that Knossos was backing Mithradates, Marcus Antonius Creticus attacked Crete in 71 BCE and was repelled. Rome sent Quintus Caecilius Metellus with three legions to the island. After a ferocious three-year campaign Crete was conquered for Rome in 69 BCE.

And I wanted a Greek City State left!
• Roman Rebels: as you can see from the timeline, this is a period instability; and it will just generally add depth to the game.
• Kush: Another unique faction for Roma Surrectum!! On a side note this is the only listed faction that wont work on the Ice Torque map, and the only one that units will be need to be found for.
• Hispania: Quintus Sertorius was compared to Hannibal, and popular among the Iberian tribes; he aimed to create a new state in Hispania modelled on Rome (even establishing a Senate). Very good commander, defeated Pompey, rebellion only really ended because of his assassination. Offers same sort of twist as Mark Antony and Cleopatra faction, yet it is more realistic as the faction is confined to a smaller area; and historically; he defeated the Romans many times, even against the odds, and wasn’t defeated in 2 years like Mark Antony.
• Spartacus: “What, some uppety Thracian gladiator? What a waste of a faction slot!!” I here you yell (Either that or “No – I am Spartacus!”). Yet he was more than that. He was on the brink of escaping to Gaul (but decided to turn back), had plans to meet with the Roman rebellion lead by Quintus in Spain, was in contact with Mithradates of Pontus, and defeated 9 (!!!!!!) Roman legions and an additional Roman militia army to boot. It is said that at one point, 120,000 slaves had joined him. He was also planning to nip over to Sicily for more plunder – this is important because the first 2 Servile wars had been based in Sicily and they had happened in the last 70 years; and a lot of manpower and resources would have been his had he managed it.


You can see there are only 19 factions. That leaves room for 1 more. I have several ideas for the faction, but won’t say them yet because they could be difficult to put in, but if they could be done they would be very good. Also, a major problem to overcome for a late roman republic era campaign is that Rome may be overpowered, be easy to play and simply dominate the map. Here, Quintus in Hispania, Spartacus and the Roman Rebels will all serve to keep check on the Romans.

Faction Placement:


Well, what do you think? Even if you feel this idea is horrendous, I still think consideration should be given to changing the start date of the campaign. Other than this suggestion…hmm…maybe 49BC, start of Caesars civil war?

Needless to say, you have my support dvk whatever decision you make – I only wish I could help you other than making suggestions and beta-testing.

_________________________________________________________________

[dvk901]

TYr and all, just so you have a good understanding of my view of RTW, it's campaigns, and these ideas...any and all. I could basically see myself pitting myself against anything and anyone in any campaign as the Romans simply because I love the challenge. My hope as the writer of RS was to come up with a mod that I could play as the Romans that was not just stupid hard, or stupid easy, or nerve racking battle after battle of endless stacks of armies...even though you win most f the time. With all of your help, I have been off and on playing a Roman campaign where I have had to think VERY carefully about how I spend my money, where I spend it, and to tactically be careful about what I attack, where, and how well I can maintain my little empire if things go bad. I've had one heck of a fight getting rid of Epirus and Syracuse in southern Italy, and have slowly taken control of Italy now, up to Mediolanium, Patavium, and just recently took Segestica. I've had anasty couple battles trying to take a 'Free People's region (Salona)...where I set foot there and was assaulted now by two stacks of defenders....nothing is easy, but it is all 'doable' for the determined player.

This is just perfect as far as I am concerned. Many suggestions made here have resulted in a mod where you need to make economic and military choices for each region...and the AOR makes you think about what to build and where because the gain will be very limited to just build everything evrywhere...even if you could afford to. At present, I pull in between 5-14000 denarii, and in some mods that would be a lot. But in this one, it's enough to build a few units and maybe a building here or there.....so every turn seems to me to be a turn of wise choices with a lot of thought.

I'm in the years 257BC....no marian reforms and not even close. I'm at war with Greeks, and ceasefire with Carthage and Syracuse and Epirus. The Gauls are at peace with me now...but a monstrous looming trouble in the north. They are very powerful. Most of the major players are still around, and the map really hasn't changed all that much....no super powers.

Why am I saying this in this thread? Well, because I think they is a difference between a campaign intended to be a 'historical event' campaign, and an 'Epic' campaign. Epic campaigns should, by definition, include all the major players and little guys, be intended for long-haul playing, and have a 'grand vision' that involves a big overall picture.

Historical event campaigns, on the other hand, are and should be focused, in my opinion, on specific factions and events that had direct parts in what was going on. And, by definition, be very short, because they deal with a specific event, not a whole period or age.

So, as I've thought about this and these ideas, I think it would be beneficial to think of these as 'mini campaigns'.....where you don't have 20 factions involved, but maybe only 2-6 you're REALLY concerned with because they had something to do with this event you want to focus on.
Thus, for an Antony & Cleopatra campaign...sure, if you build a full-fledged map and factions campaign...it's not going to play very well in RTW because once you click start the AI is going to do whatever it wants, not what you intended. But what if you set specific win conditons, troops, legions, and certain specifics in place for a 'mini-campaign'.....and you have maybe 30 turns to either win or lose? Place all the respective Legions in Egypt..both Antony and Caesar's.....with that equal numbers in mind (but perhaps a little less moral for Antony's troops).....and the win conditions to defeat Antony, Take Egypt or whatever specific regions, and then you win. On the other foot, as Antony, your goal is to defeat (outlast) Caesar for xx years, take such and such regions....and by doing so HE wins because he survived.

Likewise, think of Spartacus in the same way.....otherwise, by involving too much, and focusing on too many different things, I think you lose focus on what you want to do, and end up with an epic campaign focused on a tiny issue. Does this make sense?

Plus, it would be much easiler to have (and create) many 'mini-campaigns' that could be fun to play. Epic campaigns take a lot of time and work. Nonessential factions can just be made unplayable and rendered 'dead' economically or made so passive they do nothing. Essential factions could be made 'pointedly aggressive' perhaps, towards another specific goal and win condition or trouble they caused at the same time.

I like the ideas here, but I think they need to be more focused on a specific event and time.