Medieval Kingdoms Total War : The Ghurid Sultanate

[Visarion]

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLi...IndiaDelhi.htm

[Visarion]

[Visarion]

Late

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://rumachak.files.wordpress.com...04/babur-2.jpg

Yes it is 1526 but all these units didn't appear from nowhere!!!!

[You_Guess_Who]

Yes it is 1526 but all these units didn't appear from nowhere!!!!

Correct.

However, the problem is we must be able to distinguish between pre-1500 equipments that were still used post-1500, and the post-1500 equipments proper. That is the hard part.

[Visarion]

[Visarion]

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0india&f=false

[zsimmortal]

While I appreciate the enthusiasm, most of these are Timurid/early Mughal miniatures and so is the other stuff. I need 14th century Khiljid/Tughluqid miniatures (from that period, as later ones are going heavily influenced by contemporary equipment). I can't just use Timurid or Ottoman equipment.

As for the written sources, I am already using the political and military history of the Delhi Sultanate.

[Visarion]

I see your point. Still clues of the past can be found in the past as well. In this case however to have the Mughals or Gurkani in India would mean adding the Chagatai as a playable faction as Babur started as ruler of Ferghana. This would mean Chagatai Khanate. Moghulistan. Timurid Empire. Ferghana. Mogul Sultanate of India.

Regarding the Khiljids the clue lies in their origin and as Mamluks came especially from the Kypchaks only later from the Circassians the answer is obvious, Persian style Mamluks of Turkic origin. But you may be interested in the reforms and adaptations they made in India as well. Well again here the answer lies in the future, the Tuglachs as they were rebels not invaders of a different culture but in the past as well as they were settled so still the Kypchak originated Mamluks. For Khiljis most likely Hindu influences as it happened with the Kurds in the Zengid and the Ayyubids of course, later the fleeing Kwarezmians and the continous influx of Turkic and Caucasian warrior-slaves-elite eventually. But only as auxiliary troops. Of course India was also influenced by the Persians, Arabs and the Afghans who will eventually lead India one after another until invaded by the Mughals.

Still the great army of Babur that has so many vivid sources can be represented as the Chagatai Horde, a new faction. Later Chagatai Khanate. Most likely it was influenced heavily by the cataphract like troops of the old Saka and Tocharians of the Tarim Basin, another love of mine.

This or how You_Guess_Who stated maybe the ones who represented his army used the later combined forces of the invaders and let's say natives even if it is improper because in most of the cases Medieval artists from all corners of the world, especially Europe it's true used their contemporary gear instead of the original one, see the works of art from the Renaissance era. Still the question would be what influences are native and what are from the Ferghana valley area and Samarkand. Maybe older Kashgar influences as well as it was the most developed city of the Chagatai. If that is the case than this army is good for neither faction sadly enough. We may never know, we can only assume. But if someone would know how to identify native Mamluk and Chagatai/Mogul culture items that would be very helpful for distinguishing the origin of the future Mughal army depicted as being present in Panipat. Still we have two armies there so the opposite army facing Babur can be used for representing the Late Delhi Sultanate.

In any case your request of representing the High Indian troops was unfortunatelly not solved with all the good intentions I had, sorry for that, looks like I was not as helpful as I hoped and thought/predicted.




Edit:

Is there any change that the Chagatai Horde. Chagatai Khanate. Moghulistan. Timurid Empire. Ferghana. Mogul Sultanate of India. will be added? That would be something.

[The Shark]

I see your point. Still clues of the past can be found in the past as well. In this case however to have the Mughals or Gurkani in India would mean adding the Chagatai as a playable faction as Babur started as ruler of Ferghana. This would mean Chagatai Khanate. Moghulistan. Timurid Empire. Ferghana. Mogul Sultanate of India.

Regarding the Khiljids the clue lies in their origin and as Mamluks came especially from the Kypchaks only later from the Circassians the answer is obvious, Persian style Mamluks of Turkic origin. But you may be interested in the reforms and adaptations they made in India as well. Well again here the answer lies in the future, the Tuglachs as they were rebels not invaders of a different culture but in the past as well as they were settled so still the Kypchak originated Mamluks. For Khiljis most likely Hindu influences as it happened with the Kurds in the Zengid and the Ayyubids of course, later the fleeing Kwarezmians and the continous influx of Turkic and Caucasian warrior-slaves-elite eventually. But only as auxiliary troops. Of course India was also influenced by the Persians, Arabs and the Afghans who will eventually lead India one after another until invaded by the Mughals.

Still the great army of Babur that has so many vivid sources can be represented as the Chagatai Horde, a new faction. Later Chagatai Khanate. Most likely it was influenced heavily by the cataphract like troops of the old Saka and Tocharians of the Tarim Basin, another love of mine.

This or how You_Guess_Who stated maybe the ones who represented his army used the later combined forces of the invaders and let's say natives even if it is improper because in most of the cases Medieval artists from all corners of the world, especially Europe it's true used their contemporary gear instead of the original one, see the works of art from the Renaissance era. Still the question would be what influences are native and what are from the Ferghana valley area and Samarkand. Maybe older Kashgar influences as well as it was the most developed city of the Chagatai. If that is the case than this army is good for neither faction sadly enough. We may never know, we can only assume. But if someone would know how to identify native Mamluk and Chagatai/Mogul culture items that would be very helpful for distinguishing the origin of the future Mughal army depicted as being present in Panipat. Still we have two armies there so the opposite army facing Babur can be used for representing the Late Delhi Sultanate.

In any case your request of representing the High Indian troops was unfortunatelly not solved with all the good intentions I had, sorry for that, looks like I was not as helpful as I hoped and thought/predicted.




Edit:

Is there any change that the Chagatai Horde. Chagatai Khanate. Moghulistan. Timurid Empire. Ferghana. Mogul Sultanate of India. will be added? That would be something.

About your Factions

Mogul Sultanate out of time (1526 A.D)
Moghulistan Out of the Map
Ferghana Out of the Map
Chagatai Horde /Chagatai Khanate would be cool to see them.
Timurid Empier.Possible that the team can use the kingdom mechanic for the ilkhanate that you can form the Timurid Empier if you reach the condidtions.

[Visarion]

I meant having the army of Babur present at Panipat as the late Chagatai.

I mean he ascended the throne of Ferghana in 1495 and his father was also the ruler of that faction so most likely that army was present since the 15th century.

That was my proposal. That is definitely a Kashgar based roster with the cataphract camels and such. It would add so much diversity!

Afterwards they even had cataphract elephants like in the good old days of the Seleucids!

[zsimmortal]

I meant having the army of Babur present at Panipat as the late Chagatai.

I mean he ascended the throne of Ferghana in 1495 and his father was also the ruler of that faction so most likely that army was present since the 15th century.

That was my proposal. That is definitely a Kashgar based roster with the cataphract camels and such. It would add so much diversity!

Afterwards they even had cataphract elephants like in the good old days of the Seleucids!

There is no Chagatai horde, only the Golden horde and Ilkhanate. Late Ilkhanate is based on Timurids, so it's not like you won't get to play with them in some form.

Regardless, what I'm looking for are miniatures or paintings from India in the 14th and 15th centuries, as I can't find any. I know some of Khusrow's poems have been illustrated, like the Tughluq nama, but I have only found Mughal era miniatures for it. There's also the works of al-Barani, though I've read about much of it through modern works. Since I don't have much access to Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi, Dari/Pashto, Arabic or Farsi sources, so I'm hoping someone that lives there or has access to sources from there can help me out a bit.

Anything from Rajput history would also be a major plus.

[Visarion]

Tughluks

[zsimmortal]

Tughluks

That's actually Timurid. You'll notice the losing army is essentially identical to the winning army in terms of equipment. While I don't doubt that the Turkish elements of the Delhi sultanate would share quite a few elements with their neighbouring Mongol/Iranian neighbours (the 15th century Indian Shahnamah would indicate as much), that's only a fraction of the military of the Delhi Sultanate. I've found some statues which show pre-16th century Indian equipment, but it's not sufficient to base part of the roster on. Which is the reason I'm hoping someone from the region, either Afghanistan, Pakistan, India or Bangladesh could possibly come in with local sources.

I've also ordered The Art of War in Medieval India, so hopefully that gives me a lot more information.

[Visarion]

The answer may lie in the illustrated versions of the Shahnameh poem of different ages and using as is tge case with the Byzantine Orthodox Church contemporary gear.

https://ro.pinterest.com/pin/354940014367694432/

[zsimmortal]

The answer may lie in the illustrated versions of the Shahnameh poem of different ages and using as is tge case with the Byzantine Orthodox Church contemporary gear.

https://ro.pinterest.com/pin/354940014367694432/

Yes, I've used the Shahnamehs extensively for Iran. That one, though, is a 19th century version from the description.

Here's an image from the Indian Shahnameh, made around 1450 in the Delhi Sultanate :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

While it's a nice place to start, it hardly gives enough information to make a large and unique looking roster.

Here are statues (circa 14th c) from the Hall of Heroes at Mandore :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is pretty much the total amount of period art I have for the roster, which is why I'm desperately looking for help to broaden the amount of stuff I can use to make a great roster.

[Visarion]

I was hoping to find one such illustrated book from a dynasty of Kabul frankly...

Edit: Do you have this book!?

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so..._M1pbOxyvWUVOw

Edit: I tried to search numismatology but unfortunately the only coin with a depiction is of the Hindu Vijayanagara

http://coinindia.com/fifty-coins4.html

Edit: About the Khiljids all I found is this 1825 depiction of the Sultan Alau'd Din put to flight

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...to_Flight.jpeg



The full name of the Rajput painting of the grandchildren of Nainsukh is "Sultan Alau'd Din put to flight; Women of Ranthambore commit Juahar"

Probably the Fort of Ranthanbore

[Visarion]

Hints

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Expert-needed

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/member.php?27515-Babur

Well and tge rest of the guys that responded and some being ftom India

[zsimmortal]

All these miniatures are much later than the mod's timeline. They're nice, but they aren't of much use for accurately portraying pre-Mughal India. Even if the painting's subject is Alauddin, soldiers are typically dressed as per the current military fashion.

[Visarion]

Tried to contact some guys to help you out as I'm good at "spamming", "spammer-elite" and stuff...

[Babur]

I did see a Shahnama manuscript at the Metropolitan Museum of Art which depicted soldiers from the mid-15th Century in armour from that period. I do have images of it, would that help?.