Pisa Final Victory (All 199 Settlements, 9 Mongol Armies Defeated)

[Jurand of Cracow]

At a glance: seems you want your generals to be in enemy lands and not married.

I don't have time to analysing and reporting, there're more changes, I think, I've just found my unfinished notes prepared for these changes.
But yes, being in enemy lands prevents you from getting FarLoyalty (other Loyalty issues may work though), and Wife is usually beneficial for loyalty - you're likely to take less risks.
The "not InForeignLands" should prevent those on Crusade/Jihad (or rather returning from the long trip) from rebellion. Otherwise you'd send a guy there and he'd rebel on the way.
Perhaps it can be done in a different way (eg. adding Loyalty while joining a crusade), but I didn't think about it much. Any insights welcome.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

· Current situation: Near Loyalty
o Near/Far Loyalty is only for generals (not FL/FH)
o It’s for low Loyalty generals – one can get up only if has loyalty lower than 5.
o actually, there’s just 1 trigger for gaining Near Loyalty (the other one is called like this, but it’s a FarLoyalty clean up, and the third one is for losing Loyalty when
o The FL has to care about politics (not be Absent Minded)
· Current situation: Far Loyalty
o only for generals (not FL/FH)
o it blocks itself if a general with the second level (FarLoyalty 5) still has more loyalty than 3.
o Trigger for it’s going down is included in the trigger for NearLoyalty
o There’s a Near/Far Loyalty clean-up for the FL – if he becomes one, he loses it.
o there’s the botched up “NoGoingBack” mechanism for the highest level.

Effects and thresholds:
· The threshold were modified by a notch in two instances to make the changes more graduał (distance of 4 points). Now they are: NearLoyalty 2,10 and FarLoyalty 2,6,10.
· There’s a proliferation of +Morale benefits, it’s difficult to justify the presence in the case of Near/FarLoyalty, so it’s been removed for all triggers. Also why being Openy Rebellious is beneficial for PersonalSecurity is a riddle for me so I removed it. However, being „King’s Right hand” should be beneficial for law in the governed settlements.
· For Far Loyalty the mali as has been kept, plus malus on movement has been added for the highest level.
· “NoGoingBack” mechanism has been removed so that the traits work properly now.

Triggers have been overhauld thorougly, so I just report on the end-result:
· Only for generals (excuding FL and FH)
· Factors preventing Being on Crusade/Jihad prevents, also being on military expedition in Foreign Lands
· Near Loyalty (up to maximum 10 points) – getting it if 30- tiles from the capital and FL has the trait FLNearCapital, and:
o 10% the general has Loyalty less than 3 – a disloyal general gets his act toghether fast if near his master
o 10% the general is not a Discontent General and Loyalty less than 6 – as above: being close is good even a loyal general, unless he is unhappy with the leader or:
o 10% the general has Authority less then 3 and Loyalty less than 6 – it’s more difficult to convince somebody and gain his loyalty, if he’s self-confident due to his high authority among peers
o 10% the general has ancillary Office – working directly for your leader in the vicinity of your leader definitely makes you more loyal
· Near Loyalty – losing it:
o 5% general if further than 30 tiles from capital – a general doesn’t feel the constant pressure from his lord
o 5% FL is Liar but not DeceiverVirtued – the general may have some bad experience with the empty promises made by his leader
o 20% FL is AbsentMinded – if he doesn’t care, why should I.
o 100% after death of FL (clean-up up to max. 7 point) – should I trust this new guy?
· Far Loyalty (up to maximum 10 points) – getting it (if not the foreign lands – since on military expedition your’re not losing loyalty, unless you are defeated, but it’s another trait)
o 10%: a general is 60 tiles from capital and doesn’t have ancillary „Office”
o 10%: a general is 70 tiles from capital if no point in any: Upright nor Prim nor Stoic nor WifeIsNoble
o 10%: a general is 80 tiles from capital
· Far Loyalty – losing it:
o 10%: if less than 50 tiles from the capital and not a Discontent General – the closer your are to the court, the more loyal you’re
o 10%: if less than 50 tiles from the capital and Married – his wife worries about family political security
o 10%: if less than 50 tiles from the capital and Coward – he himself worries about his political security
o 10%: if Xenophilia at least level1, there’s more foreign religions in province and the general is not Discontent – he is grateful for the ruler to allow him what he likes: be far from politics with interesting people around

Comments:
· The system should work similarly to the current SSHIP, but more rational and preventing exploits.
· Getting the NearLoyalty may be fast – I recon it’ll usually be 20%, but 40% is possible for an important general (having office), while that returning from the journey to the outskirts of the country (with max FarLoyalty) may have it .
· Losing NearLoyalty is possible from the distance of 40. The other situations are exceptional and serve either to punish the bad traits of a FL, or to provide for the transition from one FL to another one.
· Gettin Far Loyalty might be quick if the genral is uprepared to operate far from the ruler eyes. But if he has good character and an Office, he can go very far and gain little Far Loyalty.
· Condition „not InEnemyLands” makes also for Crusades/Jihads.

Future work:
· The percentages are subject to change in future, after some experience and second thoughts.
· The question is if the thresholds and number of levels provide for a right balance in the game. They may be reviewed, but probably they will stay unchanged.

• Review how does it work with the Rebellion/Usurper system.
• Some other features of character may be added as conditions.
• Role of additional factors. For instance, in BGR there was War Councillor ancillary. However, here the role is partially played by Offices, and partially by immunity in the foreign lands.

[Jurand of Cracow]

i get bored when i reach around 35 regions too, but i dont abandon the campaign, since i play in hotseat mode i just change faction and play with something else

This is actually something I wanted to ask: how many turns do you usually play? And how many regions to you take?

For me it's rather short time. After 10-12 regions I get bored and rarely continue. The longest was that 20 settlements in 235 turns.

With the usurper system the things are even worse: the big AI factions break in pieces and with 20 settlements I'm the biggest faction. So there's no challenge and I prefer starting buildig something smaller.

[Dekhatres]

This is actually something I wanted to ask: how many turns do you usually play? And how many regions to you take?

For me it's rather short time. After 10-12 regions I get bored and rarely continue. The longest was that 20 settlements in 235 turns.

With the usurper system the things are even worse: the big AI factions break in pieces and with 20 settlements I'm the biggest faction. So there's no challenge and I prefer starting buildig something smaller.

depends, sometimes i play with a faction just to get it back on it's feet, if for example france is getting wrecked hard then i might switch faction and play with it till it's back in shape

sometimes i build an empire then switch to a small faction and sit back and relax while watching the empire struggle to stay in one piece

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm also mystified as to what it is, so take a look at the latest save and see for yourself which ones have or don't have stacked garrisons.Attachment 342837

Alavaria,
I've had a look at your save and I've got a question. Do you know how the "Glory" mechanism of public order works? what does it depend on?
cheers.
JoC

[Alavaria]

Alavaria,
I've had a look at your save and I've got a question. Do you know how the "Glory" mechanism of public order works? what does it depend on?
cheers.

Oh that.

There's a few ways to get it (successful Crusade/Jihad), but in SSHIP holding Jerusalem gives you 15% public order worth of Glory. Yep.

[Jurand of Cracow]

There's a few ways to get it (successful Crusade/Jihad), but in SSHIP holding Jerusalem gives you 15% public order worth of Glory. Yep.

In which file it's defined? In the settlement_mechanics there're two things mechanisms for order (SOF_TRIUMPH -
SOF_GLORY), but I don't know where and how are the causes defined...

[Alavaria]

In which file it's defined? In the settlement_mechanics there're two things mechanisms for order (SOF_TRIUMPH -
SOF_GLORY), but I don't know where and how are the causes defined...

Yeah sorry, that one I don't know.

I guess setting the SOF to 0 would remove it though, if your angle was "why is that one settlement a free 15% PO for everyone". (Indeed, that's the power of having 6 Master Thieves Guilds, less the corruption reduction of law.)

[Alavaria]

After taking a look, I'm guessing that SSHIP actually allows some really really high cap for law. You can get past 300% law, actually. (I would guess that 500% public order is the max, but that would require getting 200 points worth, so nearly every single settlement would have to be a Master Thief Guild)

You might be able to get to the point where any settlement can be nearly trivially held due to having a large enough network effect, like say farming up 80 Master Thieves Guilds. As there is a cap on the penalties... Unrest has some max as does squalor (125% Public Order), distance from capital (50% Public Order), etc

This is an intriguing possibility.

Sadly, there is no way to get very high populations, I think you might be able to get nearly every settlement to Large City/Fortress level, but Huge City is nearly definitely impossible except for special regions (not enough governor & building bonuses to allow a very low base farming settlement to reach Huge City)

[Jurand of Cracow]

Quite interesting remarks, Alavaria, as usual.

Actually, I was interested in Glory to learn what are the special places granting this bonus. Actually, this mechanism may allow factions to survive in two places at the same time (like: KoJ being in the Holy Land and in Prussia). I think we don't know other such places... Constantinople for the muslims?

Do you know how the Triumph mechanics functions?

Sadly, there is no way to get very high populations, I think you might be able to get nearly every settlement to Large City/Fortress level, but Huge City is nearly definitely impossible except for special regions (not enough governor & building bonuses to allow a very low base farming settlement to reach Huge City)

Don't you think that as the cities grow and there're more and more bonuses from the buildings, the base farming becomes less and less relevant?

[j.a.luna]

I think we don't know other such places... Constantinople for the muslims?

Do you know how the Triumph mechanics functions?

Mmm that is interesting...is possible make triumph mechanic for the most important cities in the game? For example is logic that if muslims conquest Rome,Constantinople,Jerusalem and Santiago de Compostela(holy cities) they have ''glory'' and triumph mechanic
Same for christians if conquest Mecca and Baghdad for example of if reconquest the holy cities of muslim hands( Rome, Constantinople,Jerusalem and Santiago)
If possible make this for next version?
Is logic, historical and also give a lot of inmersion for the game due to you will obtain a ''reward'' in form of glory amd public order in all your kingdom if you conquest this holy and importance places in the middle ages...

[Alavaria]

Don't you think that as the cities grow and there're more and more bonuses from the buildings, the base farming becomes less and less relevant?

Nope, without a hefty like 10%+ of base farming you won't get to Huge City, it requires conquering 35% growth. If you could buy endless amounts of growth you might have a point. But you can't.

The added bonuses from Large City level aren't enough to move you to Huge City without that, even if you've got a great general. Even worse if it isn't say a seaside one (sea trade buildings -> growth) or especially if you lack the law etc to go barrackless/gallowless or build things like inns and markets.

I have one city (Vienna) which barely scratches in at Large City, it'll never reach Huge.

• 07% City
• 15% Large City
• 35% Huge City

If you build:

Large Stone Wall, no barracks, small council, warehouse, cathedral, medical care, city hall, coaching house, public bath, artist studio, no gallows, foundling hospital, university, library, farms, bakery, water conductor, great market, hospitallier order

(ie: seaside settlement - the warehouse is worth 2.5%)

You might get 28.5, so potentially with a general and some small farming level you can go to Huge. (There is the "food supply" building, though it slows down everyone else, you can get +2% growth for one settlement... and then +5% from chivalry can push you to 35.5% for seaside)

But inland is too hard, without a sturdy boost. And you have public order issues without farming a lot of Master Thief/Assassin Guilds.




Now besides the Base Farming Level, the special settlements which are supposed to be large may feature the ability to build those Wonders, which helps again. However if your goal is to Large/Hugify as much as you can, I'd guess Large for all for sure, and Huge for some number of them (you might be able to really really stack something on governors I guess)

Turning Norway into a place of Large Cities (maybe Huge, they are seaside) with highways would be hilarious though. Have to be Byzantines as they are the only faction that SSHIP allows to build highways, unless you just edit it... after all, defeating the whole world with just Paved Roads is annoying.

[Alavaria]

Actually, I was interested in Glory to learn what are the special places granting this bonus. Actually, this mechanism may allow factions to survive in two places at the same time (like: KoJ being in the Holy Land and in Prussia). I think we don't know other such places... Constantinople for the muslims?

Do you know how the Triumph mechanics functions?

Well I wouldn't be surprised if it was just hardcoded to Jerusalem, based on some searchin'. Reminds me of that one Wonder in RTW (the zeus statue in olympus)

Not that the Lithuanian/Cuman(?) pagans (no swapping religion thing for them in SSHIP) would care that much, but for the other Catholic/Orthodox/Muslim it fits so yeah?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Interesting analyses, Alavaria, thanks!

Actually, my takeaway is "the SSHIP moders have done a great job in balancing things out". Indeed, you shouln't have all the cities at huge level, but you shouldn't be prevented from making them such.

The added bonuses from Large City level aren't enough to move you to Huge City without that, even if you've got a great general. Even worse if it isn't say a seaside one (sea trade buildings -> growth) or especially if you lack the law etc to go barrackless/gallowless or build things like inns and markets.
...
(ie: seaside settlement - the warehouse is worth 2.5%)

You might get 28.5, so potentially with a general and some small farming level you can go to Huge. (There is the "food supply" building, though it slows down everyone else, you can get +2% growth for one settlement... and then +5% from chivalry can push you to 35.5% for seaside)

I've got two additional questions:
- what about additional growth from trade? I often get that 0.5% from traiding. I Understand it's related to the "Grain" resource, but I don't know much in which way. I understand importing grain increases growth. But if the province has grain and exports it - does it increases growth? Are there other resources increasing growth?
- have you (or anybody else) ever managed to build the "Food Administration" buildings (you call it "food supply"). I've tried it two times but in both cases after the last turn of buidling I didn't get the building but was still able to start building it from the beginning.
cheers

[Alavaria]

- what about additional growth from trade? I often get that 0.5% from traiding. I Understand it's related to the "Grain" resource, but I don't know much in which way. I understand importing grain increases growth. But if the province has grain and exports it - does it increases growth? Are there other resources increasing growth?

I don't know, it's not consistent enough to tell with a quick glance, and doesn't seem like a tool you can "just use" with any reliability to construct your Large City empire. I've seen 2% but some settlements with massive trade (large cash flow, many settlements traded with etc) have no growth from it.

It's not the case that stacking tons of Master Merchant Guilds lets you get massive trade-based population growth.

- have you (or anybody else) ever managed to build the "Food Administration" buildings (you call it "food supply"). I've tried it two times but in both cases after the last turn of buidling I didn't get the building but was still able to start building it from the beginning.

Yeah I don't know. If it just doesn't work (maybe the game doesn't like building things with faction_capability unless they're guilds built separately from the standard construction) then you have to take that off your toolkit.


The growth strategy of course is to City up (then use them to farm your Master Guilds) and focus the hard work of Large Citying up the easiest ones first. A "good" candidate doesn't need you to build a lot to scratch the 32000 population, those you do much later on.


For Lithuania, if you use:

Stone Wall, No barracks, Merchant's Wharf, Perkunas, Monestary, Council Chambers, Tavern, Bath House, No gallows, Foundling Hospital, Library, Crop Rotation, Bakery, Well, Fairground

You get: 6 Happiness, 7 Health, 6.0% Growth = 10.5%
= 6+1.5+3 =10.5
So, with 5% general (ie: maximum Chivalry growth) you need 1.5% more from trade, better general, base farming level etc, another 1% if not seaside.

I think factions like Lithuania have an even harder time passing the Large City -> Huge City hurdle, but well let me check what they have... it's probably because of religious buildings. What they have at the City level does not match an Abbey, and a Lithuanian Large City shrine does not match a Cathedral.

Large Stone Wall, No Barracks, Warehouse, Perkunas, Medical Care, City Hall, Coaching House, Public Baths, No Gallows, Foundling Hospital, Library, Irrigation, Bakery, Water Conductor, Great Market

16 Happiness, 15 Health, 13% Growth=4+6+13 =23%

23% + 5% (chivalry general) = 28%, need 7% more

If tribute management worked, you'd get 2.5% from there.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I've had a look at the SSHIP 092 settlement_mechanics file. I'm not really sure how you're counting the impact indicators.

What I can infere from the code:
- modifires are: 0,8 for health and 0.5 for happiness (I assume "minus unrest" doesn't count as happiness, does it);
- governors influence (chivalry points): doesn't the modifier 1,5 mean a stronger impact then you presume (eg. I'd say: 10 Chvalry = 7,5% growth)?
- pro memoria: we're talking on the cities' numbers.

I would think that in this respect (impact on growth, forget the plagues) in the growth = health. But you think it's not. What do I miss?

-<factor name="SPF_HEALTH"><pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
<castle_modifier value="1.0"/>
<city_modifier value="0.8"/>
<pip_min value="0"/>
<pip_max value="100"/>
</factor>


-<factor name="SPF_BUILDINGS_FUN">
<pip_modifier value="0.5"/>
<pip_min value="0"/>
<pip_max value="100"/>
</factor>


-<factor name="SPF_GOVERNORS_INFLUENCE">
<pip_modifier value="1.5"/>
<pip_min value="0"/>
<pip_max value="10"/>
</factor>


-<factor name="SPF_TRADE">
<pip_modifier value="0.1"/>
<castle_modifier value="0.8"/>
<city_modifier value="1.0"/>
<pip_min value="0"/>
<pip_max value="25"/>
</factor>


-<factor name="SPF_SQUALOUR">
<pip_modifier value="1.0"/>
<castle_modifier value="0.75"/>
<city_modifier value="1.0"/>
<pip_min value="0"/>
<pip_max value="200"/>

[Alavaria]

- modifires are: 0,8 for health and 0.5 for happiness

In vanilla, 1 point of health gives 0.5% growth. In this you get 0.5*0.8=0.4% growth (add all your Health points and round to the appropriate multiple of 0.5)

In vanilla, 1 point of happiness gives 0.5% growth. Here, 1 points gives only 0.5*0.5=0.25% growth


You can verify by checking the buildings and seeing (remember that if the in-game says 5% Health it means "1 point") that the growth% you get is accurate.

- governors influence (chivalry points): doesn't the modifier 1,5 mean a stronger impact then you presume (eg. I'd say: 10 Chvalry = 7,5% growth)

Nope, maxes at 5% growth. Basically I think 7 points gets you to 7*0.5*1.5= (larger than 5%, so you max at 5%)

Think of the modifier as modifying your points, not the end.
Your max for chivalry is just 10*0.5% =5%

This is why your max for Law is actually "100 points=500% law" while your modifier means you need to have 200 points to actually get 500% law.

I would think that in this respect (impact on growth, forget the plagues) in the growth = health. But you think it's not. What do I miss?

Many buildings just give +Population growth% (Markets, Warehouse, Cathedeal etc) and farms similarly add it via farming level upgrade.

================================

The real takeaway is actually the fact that "make everything a Large City" plans 100% rely on "get 50>100 or MORE points of law in every settlement via farming Master guilds"

[Jurand of Cracow]

Ok, thanks, I'm getting to understand more and more.
So:
- Health 1 (population_health_bonus bonus 1) is 0,5% in vanilla, but 0,4% in SSHIP cities (due to that 0.8 code)
- Growth 0,5% (population_growth_bonus bonus 1) is 0,5%,
- Happines 1 (happiness_bonus bonus 1) is 0,25% in vanilla, but 0,125% in SSHIP cities (due to that 0.5 code)
- Law has no impact
- Chivalry 1 is 0,5%,
- Trait / ancillary giving Sqalor -1 is 0,5%.
- (I assume) Trait / ancillary giving LocalPopularity doesn't impact growth.

To make all the high Chivalry points useful I need to change SPF_GOVERNORS_INFLUENCE from <pip_max value="10"/> to <pip_max value="15"/>

I wonder why there're such high max numbers on trade (SPF_TRADE <pip_max value="25"/>) as in reality you can only get 1 or 2% (due to that <pip_modifier value="0.1"/>). Perhaps it's just a leftover from vanilla.

Anyway, I think that the growth issues are well-balanced in the SSHIP and there's no need to change it besides one thing: that max on Chivalry - given how difficult it's to get anything more than 5, I think that the cap doesn't make sense.

[Alavaria]

- Happines 1 (happiness_bonus bonus 1) is 0,25% in vanilla, but 0,125% in SSHIP cities (due to that 0.5 code)

It should be 1 Happiness is 0.5% growth in vanilla, in SSHIP it's 0.25%

At least I checked just now and a settlement with 4 points of Happiness had 1% growth from it, so that's right.

- Chivalry 1 is 0,5%,

To make all the high Chivalry points useful I need to change SPF_GOVERNORS_INFLUENCE from <pip_max value="10"/> to <pip_max value="15"/>

1 Chivalry gives us 0.75%, but yeah if you increase the max to 15 points then if you do get 10 Chivalry it will give you 7.5% growth.

- Trait / ancillary giving Sqalor -1 is 0,5%.

Actually this is harder to notice, but 1 point of squalor isn't 0.5% always, let me check...

It's 0.5% for cities, castles though have a 0.75 modifier, so theirs is smaller, at 0.375%.

[Alavaria]

Well, according to this: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt..._mechanics-xml

SPF_TRADE - This one may be difficult to grasp. 1.0 grants 0.5% populaiton growth per trade item (check your settlement trade) minus any trade item that region already owns and does not couple with duplicate imports/exports.

Vanilla probably does not use 1 as modifier, maybe 0.2?

SSHIP might just have more trade items, so the smaller 0.1 here seems to keep it below 2% (0, 0.5% and 1% are the most common in my empire)

<factor name="SPF_TRADE">
<pip_modifier value="0.1"/>
<castle_modifier value="0.8"/>
<city_modifier value="1.0"/>
<pip_min value="0"/>
<pip_max value="25"/>

If so, this would be a generally fixed thing for most settlements (excepting when you take/trade rights neighbors or build up the trade fleet capability)

What this means if you need like 10 items to get a 0.5% (well smaller due to rounding)... or something else. Hard to tell, but I had a settlement with 0.5% growth only exporting by sea its two items, so any trade counts probably.

In a couple cases, building a road seems to make the game predict an increase the growth% (in one case, from 1.5% to 2.5%), there might be something counting how "much" is traded, but you cap out at some amount per unique traded

The ability to build highways may be another important factor in large-scale construction. (Again, you can easily just add it to anyone, I think I only changed my game to also add Pisa to the factions that can build it)
==============

For the Glory, besides the temporary bonus on a successful crusade/jihad, you can start as the Crusader States and have the 15% public order because you begin owning Jerusalem (amusing)

Considering I'm at like 180/199 regions in Pisa and only observe the same 15%, I doubt the east corner of the map will have more "permanent glory" if places like Roma, Constantinople etc don't.

You can obviously get a similar effect with say a wonder-type building that gives a faction_capability (15% would mean +6 Law, for example). So if the special building only in Constantinople gives +4 Law all over that's a 10% bonus, ditto for Roma or whichever others you want (you can make it per faction, too)



Maybe try adding the jerusalem hidden_resource to other regions and see if it's a hardcoded thing, like the RTW "rome" one for Marian Reforms. (Note: SSHIP uses this hidden resource to restrict some special recruitment to the Jerusalem settlement only)

[Jurand of Cracow]

So once more: The factors of settlements' growth
- base agriculture 1 (province) is 0,5%
- Health 1 (buildings) is 0,5% in vanilla, but 0,4% in SSHIP cities
- Growth 0,5% (buildings) is 0,5%
- Happines 1 (buildings) is 0,5% in vanilla, but 0,25% in SSHIP cities and castles
- Law (buildings / generals) has no impact
- LocalPopularity (generals) has no impact
- Chivalry 1 (generals) is 0,5% in vanilla, but 0,75% in SSHIP cities
- Sqalor -1 (generals) is 0,5%, but 0,375% in SSHIP castles
- Trade (province): approx. 10 items (imported?) may give 0,5% in SSHIP, slightly less for castles

province - feature of the provinces, defined in desc_strat or elsewhere
buildings - feature of the buildings, defined in EDB
generals - feature of the generals, defined at the beginning/CoA or due to traits (EDCT) and ancillaries (EDA)

The negative factors thresholds (haven't checked this, just copying Alavaria's entry, I assume it's for squalor):
07% City
15% Large City
35% Huge City

The differences between factions stem from:
- different buildings which are possible to be built for the faction;
- different traits and ancillaries possible to be gained;
- different starting positions.
All these make some factions harder to get big settlements (and some easier).

On Jerusalem: I think that 15% it's a kind of a good reward for a player for having a long journey and keeping a settlement far away. Actually, I think taking Jerusalem should be a condition of victory for any faction but the pagans.