[Feedback] Questions, Critiques and Requests

[nero997]

This is a fun, challenging mod.
One thing that difffers from 1.2 from 1.1, and actually makes it easier I think, is that the new starting bank lets for an easy blitz war. For example in 12 turns as Saka Rauka on Hard, I have Xvarazm province, Nisa and Amul. Not that I dont like it
There is a downside to it, because stabilizing those cities and building them is a real pain, and I had to reload a few times. Overall blitz war strategy favours small factions, you can double, triple or quadruple your starting territory. I know that I didn't discover America with this observation.

[leonardusius]

OK, here it is again IMHO something to match better the realism: increased number of men/unit. I was done throw recent days many tests using the standard above mentioned battle, legionarii vs. falx and on less men the result can't confirm historical events: on 225 falx vs. 150 legionarii, always win falx, but on extreme settings, 300 falx vs. 200 legionarii always win legionarii (legionarii 1 pilla volleys bonus vs. better charge falx). I think because it's about the routing threshold % which isn't a proportional increase with the increased size. Unless give units particular % remain men routing limit, the only way is to increase number of troops.

This is a fun, challenging mod.
One thing that difffers from 1.2 from 1.1, and actually makes it easier I think, is that the new starting bank lets for an easy blitz war. For example in 12 turns as Saka Rauka on Hard, I have Xvarazm province, Nisa and Amul. Not that I dont like it
There is a downside to it, because stabilizing those cities and building them is a real pain, and I had to reload a few times. Overall blitz war strategy favours small factions, you can double, triple or quadruple your starting territory. I know that I didn't discover America with this observation.

So should be

[KAM 2150]

OK, here it is again IMHO something to match better the realism: increased number of men/unit. I was done throw recent days many tests using the standard above mentioned battle, legionarii vs. falx and on less men the result can't confirm historical events: on 225 falx vs. 150 legionarii, always win falx, but on extreme settings, 300 falx vs. 200 legionarii always win legionarii (legionarii 1 pilla volleys bonus vs. better charge falx). I think because it's about the routing threshold % which isn't a proportional increase with the increased size. Unless give units particular % remain men routing limit, the only way is to increase number of troops.

Morale is always the same, it does not matter what size there is. If unit losses 20% of men, it will have the same penalties. The most important thing is that 1v1 tests do not count as they do not take other factors into account. For example hoplite will suck 1v1 because they get super crazy high penalties on flanks and they will die 5-10 times faster on flank then on the front. But if you put same hoplites next to eachother so there is no flank to attack, then they will win.

[leonardusius]

Morale is always the same, it does not matter what size there is. If unit losses 20% of men, it will have the same penalties. The most important thing is that 1v1 tests do not count as they do not take other factors into account. For example hoplite will suck 1v1 because they get super crazy high penalties on flanks and they will die 5-10 times faster on flank then on the front. But if you put same hoplites next to eachother so there is no flank to attack, then they will win.

We speak 2 different language here I think; 20% of 225 is not equal with 20% of 150. That's the principle. And I begin with the simplest ''test of realism'' which is 1vs.1 !!!!

[FlashHeart07]

But if units break at 20%, how does it matter whether the units starts at 1000 troops or 300? The absolute numbers are ofc not the same as you point out, but that is not the point KAM is aiming for.
The game engine doesnt care for numbers but percentage from the total. So when 20% out of 100% is dead, they will rout (or something, Idc about that kind of detail).

As long as you consider the limitations of this type of testing when you comment on what should be changed.

[KAM 2150]

Most often those 225 (or 300 in my case) units have much lower morale and die much faster then those smaller heavy units so 20% of losses on low morale unit will have much higher impact than 20% of 150. In case of falxes, they both have great number and great morale but die like flies to ranged units and cavalry, although I think falxes are a bit too strong now.

And no, 1v1 is not a test or realism, rather a contradiction of it as duels did not happen between units on regular basis but engagements of different formations. You can take a car and declare it the best car on the planet because it beats all other cars in a drag race but you don't take into account how it will fare in a race where there are many turns, in which, in fact it can turn to best worst of all cars in the race. The same goes for 1v1 tests.

[rbt]

I rly love your mod, because I prefer realistic gameplay than arcade, but are you going to do more formations/abilities like shieldwall, spearwall for barbarian units/Rome etc. or formations like diamond for cavalry? I know you like and focus on hellenic battlefield, but now game little lost on battlefield diversity, everywhere phalanx or just a lot of javelins.

[KAM 2150]

Shieldwall, spearwall etc are not used by the AI and the game engine forces the unit to turn it off as soon as you give it attack or run order so even for the player they only work if you just walk in it and let your units be attacked. Only formations based on pikes (which we use for hoplites) work but then AI uses them at all times and they only work for units with long range, if you give the same formation to for example legionares, then they won't be even able to engage pikes or hoplites.

Diamond formation just like wedge is heavily bugged in the engine so I replaced them with flying wedge which works much better. Some cav units still have regular wedge (which did not look like it does in the game, because it looked like an actual wedge and not like a triangle, it was not supposed to break through the middle but to break the side and then encircle or force enemy to strafe to the other side) but it will soon replace them too with flying wedge.

I have an idea to give Romans a shieldwall as pure deffensive formation that we be obviously only used by the player but it will also make that unit pretty much not be able to kill anything so it will have a tactical purpose (they will hold few times longer) but not OP at the same time (so you won't win a battle by putting all units in it). I will explain more soon.

[FlashHeart07]

Who are you to judge what types of units or battle style that we prefer? May I remind you that several of us are not Hellenic fan boys as Tenerife_Boy Though we are most likely going to introduce formations and other stuff. But let us finish the release of 1.2 first There will be a 1.3

[rbt]

Oh, don't take it offensive, I'm so glad about what you did for that game, because I couldn't play it without mods like yours (same for Attila, but yours mod is dead there, where imo Attila game mechanic is better then Rome 2 - many good improvements, but pathetic optimization).

Ok, thank you for long reply and I wish you easy work, I'm rly waiting to see more!

[FlashHeart07]

I didnt take any offense

[Dresden]

In my Rome campaign (Marian reforms) I own Sparta and the capitol building is at tier 2. Tier 3 is locked requiring higher reforms. Greek thorax reforms have not triggered yet. Will that reform unlock tier 3 for the Sparta capitol or is it not supposed to be locked by reforms?
All purple techs researched, clean January 21 build, no submods.

Actually, it won't be unlocked for non-Sparta factions. Its restricted to sparta faction only right now - at least I think it is.

Oh, don't take it offensive, I'm so glad about what you did for that game, because I couldn't play it without mods like yours (same for Attila, but yours mod is dead there, where imo Attila game mechanic is better then Rome 2 - many good improvements, but pathetic optimization).

Ok, thank you for long reply and I wish you easy work, I'm rly waiting to see more!

I didnt take any offense

Welcome to Flash's sense of humor, it takes getting used to

[FlashHeart07]

Welcome to Flash's sense of humor, it takes getting used to

Welcome to my World! Welcome to the odd world of Scandinavian humour

[leonardusius]

Most often those 225 (or 300 in my case) units have much lower morale and die much faster then those smaller heavy units so 20% of losses on low morale unit will have much higher impact than 20% of 150. In case of falxes, they both have great number and great morale but die like flies to ranged units and cavalry, although I think falxes are a bit too strong now.

And no, 1v1 is not a test or realism, rather a contradiction of it as duels did not happen between units on regular basis but engagements of different formations. You can take a car and declare it the best car on the planet because it beats all other cars in a drag race but you don't take into account how it will fare in a race where there are many turns, in which, in fact it can turn to best worst of all cars in the race. The same goes for 1v1 tests.

Let it dead...you don't see the point. The last thing I can say is, summarizing:
10 legionarii vs. 10 falxes 90% of the time falx win
300 legionarii vs. 300 falxes 90% legionarii win
Good night sir.

I rly love your mod, because I prefer realistic gameplay than arcade, but are you going to do more formations/abilities like shieldwall, spearwall for barbarian units/Rome etc. or formations like diamond for cavalry? I know you like and focus on hellenic battlefield, but now game little lost on battlefield diversity, everywhere phalanx or just a lot of javelins.

Sadly DeI made this compromise that personally I don't like. But it's my humble opinion and not an offense. I use an incomplete personal restored version of DeI with all abilities on theirs (almost) vanilla settings (on which I still work when have free time). A lot of immersion/micromanagement is lost without. I don't care if AI get penalty here, because in the other part AI get the upper hand (I'm referring on the whole game experience, say in reality my enemy never ''read'' my variables to take the according moves) and overall all is somewhat equalized. But some peoples are not so hardcore strategy lovers and can live with it.

[KAM 2150]

Let it dead...you don't see the point. The last thing I can say is, summarizing:
10 legionarii vs. 10 falxes 90% of the time falx win
300 legionarii vs. 300 falxes 90% legionarii win
Good night sir.

Nope, it is still you who misses the point. You don't take majority of combat stats and situations into account. You still think that the best car in the world is the one who beats all other in drag race.

[Armchair0609]

I know you said you are working on making smaller factions easier early game maybe I just suck but my fav faction Massalia feels impossible. After taking out both Volcae and building up your providence your left with near empty coffers and barely maintaining po. Than Rome takes out Liguria and despite gifts and friendly relations declares war on you followed by some other tribes and thats gg.

[AugustusRoman]

The campaign is hard!! WE LIKE IT!! I am playing as Syracuse on VH/VH, and I manage to destroy Rome in 15 - 20 turns. Now I am in 120 turn and it is still hard. In some point 6 factions declared war to me! It was hard but fun!! What is the point if you are going to win no matter what!!!!!

[Falco]

Have you guys ever thought about making Early Socii Equites for the Romans? Seems logical since there are early Equites Extraordinarii.

[Armchair0609]

The campaign is hard!! WE LIKE IT!! I am playing as Syracuse on VH/VH, and I manage to destroy Rome in 15 - 20 turns. Now I am in 120 turn and it is still hard. In some point 6 factions declared war to me! It was hard but fun!! What is the point if you are going to win no matter what!!!!!

I like a hard campaign because when it gets steamrolly I lose interest but there's only so much skill can do for you when your 15 turns in and your surrounded by enemies making a bee line towards you with only a half stack and near empty coffers.

[The Guy With No Imagination]

So just some feedback on my Baktria campaign -

Year is 255 and my country has flourished. I ignored the southern Seleukid satrapies and made sure to keep an eye on Parthia - when they took Marv I was a little worried, but I quickly managed to turn them into a friend with military access, trade rights, and a non-aggression pact. By the time we reached that agreement, I was busy to the north fighting the long hard fight against the Steppe - the Kwarezmians and Saka Rauka mainly. It took twenty seven years to pacify the steppe and consolidate all of Khorasmia - Kath was fought over like scraps between rabid dogs - I once blitzed it from the Kwarezmians, only to lose it, to nearly retaking it but falling back with attrition costing me most of my army. I pulled back to reorganize my economy and then the Saka Rauka swept in and took it. After nearly ten years of fighting, I had made no progress and it seemed the Saka were poised to start pushing into Baktria and Sogdiana proper.

A daring campaign led by Royal Family partisans led the Royal Army to the north to take Aktau from the Saka, and then once that happened and their army was rushing up from the east of Kath, I blitzed Kath again and only barely managed to take the city - I had mainly merc skythian horsemen that I hired on the spot and archers in my army. Only two hoplite units that had been veterans of almost every battle fought so far - and they saved the day for me. That day the real hero was the Baktrian Hoplite - those two units were able to climb the city walls at separate points and almost singlehandedly take the gates. I'd support them with the few peltasts and the sogdian axemen I had, but they'd all route before the hoplites. Eventually the hoplites and 1 unit of peltasts captured the city gate, and with that my 8 units of cavalry were able to swarm in and smash the remaining garrison.

And voila like that, nearly thirty years of fighting drew to a close. I've spent the last decade in-game building up the economy and pouring money and time into research and infrastructure. I've only now just begun to turn my gaze southward, and I plan on having two armies sweep into the remaining Seleukid satrapies, which are quasi-independent, seeing as the Parthians have cut them off from the Seleukids and has them surrounded on all sides except the north (where I'm at).

Because of the absolute slog of a fight that was my Northern Steppe campaign, I've only just recently unlocked the Thureos reforms and built up my barracks enough to actually get the units. The Baktrian assault infantry looks like it's gonna be a blast to use while my spear and pikemen hold the lines. I've been having an absolute blast, and just lament that my laptop can barely handle the game sometimes. But that issue's with me.

Some quick feedback on the campaign - Not that I'm one to nitpick, but Diodotos starts off the game already a seasoned man around 40 or so years whilst most of the other party leaders are around their 20's. Not much of an issue, but considering Diodotos would probably have been somewhere in his mid-30's/40's by the time of Baktria's independence c.252, it just might be a bit annoying if he dies soon from old age before any of that happens . Also, not sure if it's meant to be this way, but the starting general IN Baktria at the start of the campaign isn't Dio, but the sogdian nobility leader Demodomas. Another note on the politics - I know it was done to start fleshing out politics more for all factions, but to me it seems the political parties could be fleshed out more if they represented some of the Dynasties that the country had - Diodotids, Euthydemids, Eucratids, amongst others (If I had any capability to mod these things I would, since I see potential ideas for benefits to each of these as political parties too).

Quick other note that it seems archers might be just a -tad- bit OP, since if you can get a few units to concentrate their fire on one unit, it seems they can very quickly go into morale shock and break. Which is a bit of a challenge with primarily horsearcher enemies, but I managed to beat em, so it's not hugely urgent either. Most units seem pricey, but considering the economy rework it manages to work.

In sum total it's been one hell of a hard fought very fun game. 11/10 DeI, would Rome 2 again