[Feedback] Questions, Critiques and Requests

[Kassandros]

Definitely loving 1.2 so far. In the past I only ever played as Athens, Carthage, or the Ptolomies (rarely Rome), but now I'm so overwhelmed my cool choices that I keep restarting ten turns in! I think I'm going to commit to this Syracuse game, though, haha.

That brings to me a question. How come the main Syracusan dynasty is the Deinomenid dynasty, since the mod takes place nearly 200 years after they were in power? Wouldn't it be better to just shove Hiero's reign back ten years and use the Hieronemid dynasty?

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

Hi Dresden, Kam and co.,

So a couple impressions on the new battle system --

While overall the way battles play out is incredibly satisfying and superior in many ways to 1.1, especially with how the AI stops to throw javelins and moves to flank the player's line, there is one major problem in my view.

The morale penalty for units being flanked seems far, far too high. I just played a battle where I had some low quality Gallic spearmen fighting Massalian hoplites head-on, and the Massalians were (rightly) butchering my unarmored Gauls with ease. However, my Gallic line wrapped around the hoplites' left flank with literally only five or six men -- they weren't even being hit in the back, and only at the very northwest corner of the flank.

And yet the Hoplites routed almost as soon as this minor wraparound occurred. This despite the fact that they were absolutely murdering my Gauls, and had 190 out of 200 men still alive and kicking -- i didn't feel like I'd come by that victory honorably. The hoplites' morale was affected out of all proportion to what was actually occurring. I never got this feeling in 1.1; though units routed quickly if flanked, if they were winning the fight they often held on for a more reasonable amount of time. It wasn't like they were surrounded or anything, and their general was even right behind the line.

It just seemed excessive.

In any case, loving the mod, and this is one minor quibble in a vast mosaic of excellence and fun. But I thought I would let you guys know.

[Dresden]

We overhauled morale very recently so it probably needs some tweaks here and there.

[Eddie 4]

It seems that after all this years we finally have the game that was promised to us in all that pre-release hype..!

YOU did it guys!
Amazing!

Playing on very hard and the game is really difficult,even with Rome!Every little thing matters now!

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

We overhauled morale very recently so it probably needs some tweaks here and there.

Yeah, I think overall the changes have been very much for the better. But good to know.

[KAM 2150]

Hi Dresden, Kam and co.,

So a couple impressions on the new battle system --

While overall the way battles play out is incredibly satisfying and superior in many ways to 1.1, especially with how the AI stops to throw javelins and moves to flank the player's line, there is one major problem in my view.

The morale penalty for units being flanked seems far, far too high. I just played a battle where I had some low quality Gallic spearmen fighting Massalian hoplites head-on, and the Massalians were (rightly) butchering my unarmored Gauls with ease. However, my Gallic line wrapped around the hoplites' left flank with literally only five or six men -- they weren't even being hit in the back, and only at the very northwest corner of the flank.

And yet the Hoplites routed almost as soon as this minor wraparound occurred. This despite the fact that they were absolutely murdering my Gauls, and had 190 out of 200 men still alive and kicking -- i didn't feel like I'd come by that victory honorably. The hoplites' morale was affected out of all proportion to what was actually occurring. I never got this feeling in 1.1; though units routed quickly if flanked, if they were winning the fight they often held on for a more reasonable amount of time. It wasn't like they were surrounded or anything, and their general was even right behind the line.

It just seemed excessive.

In any case, loving the mod, and this is one minor quibble in a vast mosaic of excellence and fun. But I thought I would let you guys know.

I am working on those stuff although I never had this, even with hoplites surrounded from few sides and with 20% of casulalties. Did they got any other penalties? What difficulty you were playing at? Overal for hoplites and pikes, the design is that as soon as they get flanked, they are more or less doomed so you MUST hold their line intact and not solo their units. That is why you should invest in support troops.

[KennyTheKlever]

It seems that the base income is still around. I thought it would be eliminated entirely?

[Dresden]

Unfortunately, we can't get rid of it entirely due to a strange UI bug that happens.

Can read more here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15204816

[Ostrogoth]

Amazing! You guys did it again. I can call myself total war veteran but in this mod I feel as total newbie. The amount of changes in astounding. Finally Caucasian region is also done rightly, the map feels complete. The mod has not only earned place in my holy pantheon of mods but it has also established monotheism.

Many thanks to KAM2150 for new battle system. Battles feel so good and natural now.

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

I am working on those stuff although I never had this, even with hoplites surrounded from few sides and with 20% of casulalties. Did they got any other penalties? What difficulty you were playing at? Overal for hoplites and pikes, the design is that as soon as they get flanked, they are more or less doomed so you MUST hold their line intact and not solo their units. That is why you should invest in support troops.

Okay, so after I saw you saying this I switched to a couple Greek factions to try and test hoplites in particular. There are no morale penalties involved except flanking, and in many cases I've had my general close to these units and the issue still occurs. After long hours I think I see what's going on. The issue is this: both the AI and the player/myself are, due to the new tendency of enemies to discharge all their javelins before fighting in melee, forced to charge hoplites at the enemy immediately, every time. The enemy are invariably not in a solid line, and while the hoplites fight well in terms of damage and killing ability, the natural 'wraparound' effect of loose order barbarian/sword units means that hoplites get hit with a flanking penalty any time they face more than one unit in melee, and several times fighting another unit one-on-one has yielded this result as well.

The net result of this is that I've stopped using the hoplite phalanx formation against anyone except other Hellenic factions, which is a shame because it looks amazing and it really is perfect for the units. Even in terms of killing ability and movement it feels great, the only problem is that an entire army of hoplites will rout due to flank penalties even in frontal combat against far weaker foes. So my successful battles have returned to the disorganized scrum of vanilla with units all over the map fighting like savages, instead of the beautiful line-on-line combat that I know this new hoplite phalanx is perfect for. It's happened to me six or seven times now -- literally ten minutes ago i watched a Pergamene hoplite unit rout with 184/200 after being flanked (and not flanked very far around either) for a bare seven seconds or so.

This isn't in any way gamebreaking, and I'm still having a blast -- 1.2 is a monumental achievement. You guys are incredible. But playing a Greek city state's army right now is just the same as rolling up to a battle with a bunch of barbarian spearmen rather than glorious Hellenic hoplites.

Just my two cents.

[fishboy7]

Wow great job with this release. So much content; the IE map and population systems are fantastic! One small thing I've noticed in 1.1 as well as 1.2 indo-hellenic AOR units can be recruited throughout Persia as far west as Media, which I find strange.

[Nero Claudius Drusus]

Great job indeed roman starting position is really fun to play

[KAM 2150]

Okay, so after I saw you saying this I switched to a couple Greek factions to try and test hoplites in particular. There are no morale penalties involved except flanking, and in many cases I've had my general close to these units and the issue still occurs. After long hours I think I see what's going on. The issue is this: both the AI and the player/myself are, due to the new tendency of enemies to discharge all their javelins before fighting in melee, forced to charge hoplites at the enemy immediately, every time. The enemy are invariably not in a solid line, and while the hoplites fight well in terms of damage and killing ability, the natural 'wraparound' effect of loose order barbarian/sword units means that hoplites get hit with a flanking penalty any time they face more than one unit in melee, and several times fighting another unit one-on-one has yielded this result as well.

The net result of this is that I've stopped using the hoplite phalanx formation against anyone except other Hellenic factions, which is a shame because it looks amazing and it really is perfect for the units. Even in terms of killing ability and movement it feels great, the only problem is that an entire army of hoplites will rout due to flank penalties even in frontal combat against far weaker foes. So my successful battles have returned to the disorganized scrum of vanilla with units all over the map fighting like savages, instead of the beautiful line-on-line combat that I know this new hoplite phalanx is perfect for. It's happened to me six or seven times now -- literally ten minutes ago i watched a Pergamene hoplite unit rout with 184/200 after being flanked (and not flanked very far around either) for a bare seven seconds or so.

This isn't in any way gamebreaking, and I'm still having a blast -- 1.2 is a monumental achievement. You guys are incredible. But playing a Greek city state's army right now is just the same as rolling up to a battle with a bunch of barbarian spearmen rather than glorious Hellenic hoplites.

Just my two cents.

Hmm that is odd as my hoplites were able to stand up to Legionares but my lines simply never had gaps, just big long line of hoplites next to eachother. I will look into it but my results were never even close to what you get. Like literally never. Also I don't know why would you charge you hoplites, just take the barrage of javelins and wait for the enemy. If you sucumb to attack to early, you simply got outplayed by the AI as it forced you to their own tactic.

Just tested it out and I can't get the results you have. Are you sure you are not using any submods or other stuff that can influence it? Also remember that giving the attack order works like in case of pikes described in battle previous, units will push in and take bigger casualties plus also breakt their lines a bit. Even AI does not issue attack order from start to most of their hoplites. Plus hoplites have charge defence bonus.

I made two battles, both as hoplites and against hoplites with light and heavy sword infantry in numerical advantage. As you can see, units in the middle are doing good and hold the line, I did not attack AI, just tanked out javelin shower with minimal casulaties, only hoplites on flanks are suffering bigger losses but not as big as surrounded thorakitai. When at 178 men and attack by 3 units, including one of the flank, they are holding well. They only start to rout at 158 men, when attack by fourth units from the rear and penalty from thorakitai that routed nearby. On the second flank, hoplites at 168 are doing well, even if "attack in flank" is displayed. Also the rout on the left started around 12 minutes into the battle as you can see on the timer.

http://i.imgur.com/86HAQBK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lqtgCm7.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IvA41rc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/51Ok2tq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MsotH2B.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UbAZtVi.jpg

Now when I fought against the AI, their hoplites obviously were not able to hold the line as good as I did with mine but also they are able to tank it out a lot longer, even up to the point in which they have only 113 men and still fighting. Surrounded AI hoplits still fight even at 149 men.

http://i.imgur.com/wKD73dz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eH8WREb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/eSiqyVk.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bANxbvp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rKzjkQ1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XQDk7or.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dtcE82i.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dz0gBHu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/t87kIbZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AVQkWKZ.jpg


I am not saying that you are fully wrong but you can see on those pictures why I think something can be off with what you describe. Obviously I will still work more on hoplties as I am not finished with them but I don't want to make bigger changes to hastily to not break stuff in other places.

[MarcusTraianus]

After all what you have done this is the most ridiculous chicane from me, but new map is looking too medieval.

[Michaliscrete]

Great job guys. I love this mod so far. First a question i play as epirus and in first turn i noticed that two military technologies are already checked. Is this on perpuse? Second i think i khow what antiochus is talking about. When you charge with hoplites and then press phalanx they root very easy but i actually like it. But when on phalanx they are beasts. Spartan hippeis can defeat pretorians head on.

[Caius Bingerus]

...i come lately, but anyway: happy new year to all of you, hope ya had a good time with your beloved ones and got some rest from modding...

feedback (using strait DeI v.1.2 open beta, no submods, only some graphic addons):
I haven't expected a new release, DeI v.1.2 is, although in open beta status, a huge blast, many thanks to all who are involved, played a couple of hours, mainly testing custom battles and some new playable factions, to get a feeling on new map and starting positions...there are so many little things to explore, new textures here and there,new animations, new background infos and and and...

info texts:
i never read through ingame info texts, now i read every piece of sentence, so many lovely quotes, interesting history facts and hints, simply wow...it makes fun and is a huge step in terms of immersion, getting really into ancient world

combat and textures:
i love the new combat style, although a little bit faster than i was usually expecting while playing DeI v.1.1, it fit's very well, i can almost see all abandoned animations again, no blobs, guys fighting believeable against each other, wonderful chosen textures and implentation of them, even the better fitting colours for troops (only cosmetic changes, but very well appreciated)

Battle AI:
different factions use different and varied battle lines, supporting their main line efficiently, always trying to flank me, the best: if i have superior line troops, AI tries to step back, getting out of my javelins, missiles and arrows, waiting for a gap, when my men start to manoever 'em, overall the AI feels more active now, using every chance to get the most out of their chosen men, tried some battles with different loadouts for testing, i never have seen so many different reactions and active engagements from AI

politics and buildings overhaul:
as i tried some new factions, i watched the overhaul in terms of character traits for all protagonists, really outstanding work and i love one fact the most: breaking my head, what new building to build, so many choices, so few places to build...great, great...

overall, congratulations for this "open beta", it doesn't really fit, because this version is really enjoyable so far, many, many thanks for this, you should really be proud, you all, i am more than proud of you with huge respect for all these gifts...take my hand for gentle shaking sorry for the wall of text, but you guys deserve a feedback, not only small sentences

Sincerly C. Bingerus

[Farrell]

Hi
First thk you very much for this mod

i noticed a problem with elephants. Now, ennemi waiting before to charge but the problem is AI place their unit elephants just in front of their line. Result elephants dont charge our line and we can destroy easily with our arrows and javelin.
Elephant with ai its not a fear now^^

[pwrr7977]

Just a question about the grand campaign start with rome, I fail to see the labelled 'easy' start, now I'm not the best at this game so if I'm simply not handling my resources well enough do let me know, but being at war with 3 factions with less than 10 units to defend with and an income of 1241 where am I missing the key to success?

[skillfultree]

Would the team ever consider adding an Arabic culture (religion) to the Arabic factions? There are already two playable factions in Arabia and the Caucasus manged to get a new culture just for those two factions that were there. "Desert Nomad" seems far too generic and wide spread seeing as it covers other unrelated north Africans as well.

I've got to say though amazing job on 1.2 I'm having a blast.

[FlashHeart07]

Just a question about the grand campaign start with rome, I fail to see the labelled 'easy' start, now I'm not the best at this game so if I'm simply not handling my resources well enough do let me know, but being at war with 3 factions with less than 10 units to defend with and an income of 1241 where am I missing the key to success?

I believe that is something that CA labelled the faction. And that does not fit with DeI considering the massive amounts of gameplay mechanics that we have changed. If you are struggling you might want to try the easy difficulty setting instead. Or try Egypt as this faction is considered as the most fitting faction for new players.