[Feedback] Questions, Critiques and Requests

[SilUns]

Thank you, that did not occur to me but it makes sense. But I seem to be able to recruit both kinds in the same region (Casurgis). I wonder if it has to do with the Roman Auxiliary Barracks? (I am playing as Rome, but I'm not talking about the romanized variant, which I can see is different.)

By the way, both this mod and this forum are excellent; I feel like I should say something, being new here and all. The focus on both flavor and gameplay are really something special.

[Dresden]

Welcome

And the other reason for the overlapping AOR is a technical one due to the way AOR regions work.

[KAM 2150]

Well, so translation or no steal food mod change combat. Good to know.



I know how combat work. There's limit of army, there's price of units and there's combat stats. I know - missiles not powerful in vanilla rome 2, but they cheap. In this mod archer can cost like havy inf, so he must be effective same as heavy inf. At least capable almost kill this heavy inf unit wasting all ammo, otherwise there's no single reason keep more than 1-2 archers (for flame arrow).

So you need watch AI - he cheat, break attack animation or other weird things, which lead to this result.

No. I expected 3 of top AP archers can deal with single heavy inf with huge shield before got out of ammo. If they can't, i better spend money for 2 top inf units.

Well, but there's game with lot of conventionality, and move archers to flank beign outnumbered (90% of my battles) it's easy way to waste them.
And not, i can't have same number and quality troops as AI: he somehow can upkeep army with ~4.5k gold per turn just from single village.
Hm, on second glance i can cheat gold too, lol.

Yeah, but as i say there's no reason take archers, if inf for same cost can do better.

Good for you, you kill 1600 gold with 3600 gold. You can add 2 cavalry unit with 1000 cost and check results again.
And most of my tests is AI archers vs my hoplites, bcs it show unit's stats, not player's knowledge how to abuse (i think you rem shogun2 personal control arty).

Nah, this argument is not valid. "lots of buffs" it's literally +15%(18) of ammo from general skills and mb some from techs, if we not count faction abilities. And no reason to choose 5% armor and 15% to ammo instead of 10% attack and 15% defence when ranged units so bad.
Yeah, there's no block chance buffs but there's stances like testudo.

I was use memesisters stack as Alarielle and i can say they have enough kills for kill any AI army - yeah, with magic support, but meh really. And know why? Bcs they have almost 50 AP damage with all those passives and buffs.
Difference between 50 and 6(with damage buffs) mean 8 cretan archers in dei have same damage as single soa archer in mortal empires.

Yeah-yeah.
But rem about we say - 3! units with 3600! gold cost can't kill 1! unit with 1600! gold from front before they get out of ammo.
I fine with low damage per shoot - it's just increase battle lenght, which give inf and cavalry opportunity to actions and prevent cases like shogun2, where even date bulletproof samurai will rout before they can reach enemy.
But ammo count must be increased at least twice.

Balanced army composition - is that i want.
Like 2-4 horses, 6 archers, 4-6 swordsmans, 4-6 spearmens. Logic is simple - swords vs inf, spearmens vs horses, horses for charges and chasing, archers for kill enemy archers and as reason for enemy to attack me instead of hold their ground. Bcs, if they just stay, they will got killed after time.
But look at situation now: archer unit can't kill single enemy unit. So army which have 4 horses, 6 archers, 10 heavy inf will lost to army with 14 heavy inf and 6 horses, bcs archers can't kill inf from front and can't flank bcs horses kill them - archers just dead weight.

Elite archers cost that much because of how good they are, hence why based on CB/MP feedback, guys like Cretans will be even limited to max 2 per army in this modes due to how valued they are by the players.
If you take a look at lower tier ranged units, they do cost low but often cant double as medium infantry as many better ranged units do.
You just picked most extreme case, 3 archers attacking frontally unit with large shields and and in formation that also buffs missile defence, these guys are heavily covered from frontal ranged attacks and there are better ways to tackle them due to their slow speed.
Your proposed army comp is actually good and this is how better DeI players form their armies since army with no ranged units is very bad, especially if you are going to fight faction like Numidia.
Doubling archer or in general ranged ammo would make battles unplayable due to how easy they would be, you can already nearly double or even double (based on a faction) your starting ammo with campaign buffs.
You example from Warhammer makes no sense as games use different HP system plus multitude of other things.
Like I said before, ranged units are a must in this mod and they deal a lot of pain. If you want to be a better player with them, please check out our Discord, there are people who can guide you on a path of near OP ranged tactics.

[Sdf]

At first, way to balance SP campaign with MP feedback is totally wrong. Warhammer show this clearly. If you play MP battle with 10000 gold limit, when in campaign you can have army with price of 4600x20 = 92000 gold, you play literally another game.
Yeah, i can agree i choose best position for hoplites - but as compensation for beign triple overpriced and outnumbered. Do you think test 1 cretan archer vs 1 random inf with 1200 cost will have another result?
Idk how good DEI players, but my tests show me what archers (and foot missiles in general) useless aside flame arrow and deal with no armor units. Last time i look at scorpions, idk why but they very good - one of them can force to route one inf with 2 speed before they come in melee. And spend for this only ~50-60% ammo, perfect results compare to archers as for me.
About doubling ammo with buffs - can you tell me that buffs please? Bcs i can't see increase ammo skills at agents, and general's skill can give only something like 18%.
Ty for proposition, but i know how to play with ranged units - and how to play TW in general. Sadly i usually don't make video with TW gaming, there's only one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5BGxtxohgQ
My point is - foot missiles units have too low ammo for beign useful by their price compared to other units. They can be good vs non-armored or without shield, but most of dangerous units well armored, and most of units have shields.

[KAM 2150]

In SP there also comes population, which is much more generous for ranged units than heavy units. And I cant stress how good and important ranged units are in DeI but you also need to keep in mind how they are supposed to be used. Throwing all their ammo vs heavily shielded front is a waste. Please work on your tactics a bit, ranged units are very strong here, this update was heavily tested for half a year and it even got nerfs to ranged units on the way as you could evne roll with 50% of ranged units in army. In campaign I would need to try to get less than 100 kills per correct units. Scorpions ignore missile block chance due to being arty. Your issue is that you judge units purely on 1v1 basis and not on whole battle concept. Also your point reinforces my view even stronger as you said flaming arrows are better, which are not as they nerf both regular and AP damage, nerf range and nerf reload while their morale impact is low. Please visit our discord for instructions from other players. This is not vanilla, units need to work together with others to get best results. If you judge ranged units based on how good they are in situation they have no place to be good, than you don't know how to play with ranged units.

[Olmsted]

Thank you, that did not occur to me but it makes sense. But I seem to be able to recruit both kinds in the same region (Casurgis). I wonder if it has to do with the Roman Auxiliary Barracks? (I am playing as Rome, but I'm not talking about the romanized variant, which I can see is different.)

By the way, both this mod and this forum are excellent; I feel like I should say something, being new here and all. The focus on both flavor and gameplay are really something special.

There is some overlap in the AOR regions. Hercynia is in both AOR regions.

[Sdf]

1 In SP there also comes population, which is much more generous for ranged units than heavy units.
2 And I cant stress how good and important ranged units are in DeI but you also need to keep in mind how they are supposed to be used. Throwing all their ammo vs heavily shielded front is a waste. Please work on your tactics a bit, ranged units are very strong here, this update was heavily tested for half a year and it even got nerfs to ranged units on the way as you could evne roll with 50% of ranged units in army.
3 In campaign I would need to try to get less than 100 kills per correct units.
4 Scorpions ignore missile block chance due to being arty.
5 Your issue is that you judge units purely on 1v1 basis and not on whole battle concept.
6 Also your point reinforces my view even stronger as you said flaming arrows are better, which are not as they nerf both regular and AP damage, nerf range and nerf reload while their morale impact is low.
Please visit our discord for instructions from other players. This is not vanilla, units need to work together with others to get best results.
7 If you judge ranged units based on how good they are in situation they have no place to be good, than you don't know how to play with ranged units.

1 May be, but arhers shouldn't take heavy loses anyway. And iirc, lot of heavy units comes from same t2 pops as top archers.
2 If i win a battle as inf+cav vs 10 archers+10 anything with minimal losses, will it prove your point wrong?
3 So what? I told you already - i know how to play TW. It mean i know how to kiting too.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

4 Not only block issues, need to test but look like one missile can hit several units judje by pushback animation.
5 Hey, if archers shoot and inf just stay like dummy it's not 1v1. It's archers shoot and inf stay like dummy, 1v1 mean inf move to archers or victory point and try to kill/capture.
6 If you don't know how powerfull morale debuffs - i can say you low skill player. Good players know - if he stack enough morale debuffs, enemy can route even with half of units. And DEI have lot of options for morale debuffs, ~-17% only from general - and there's warcry, units with fear, flank charges, flame arrows, general dead etc.
7 Well. You good player who don't know hot to stack morale debuffs and i bad player who can win battles beign outnumbered with 10:1 kill/losses. I got your point.

[Fondor_Yards]

I feel like the info for/from buildings could afford to be clearer. The tool tips for building effects seem inconstant in showing if their effects(both for positive and negative), mainly if they are for just that region or the province as a whole. You can kinda guess in general even if it's not specified (capital buildings affect the whole province while small town ones just that region), but this isn't always the case. For example a temple and stadia(small town public order building) both say "-x% regional income(taxes for building upkeep)" but temples are for just that region while stadia upkeep is for the whole province. Likewise hellenic farms (small town only) unit replenishment is province wide not just that region. Think it would help if after each effect there would be a (region) or (province) added to show what it did. For negative income/upkeep can be changed to -x% region income or -x% province income.

I also feel like the flat -x wealth for maintenance you get from things like barracks and general training centers could use a tip showing they come off your total faction income not your region/province income.

Buildings that are limited to 1 per faction could also use tip, but this is a smaller issue since there's not a lot of them. You can generally guess there's a limit of one Library of Alexandria but only being able to make 1 Mega Asklepieion


Unrelated to the above bit, but the AoR for Pannonia include units like Cordinau Orca, Galathraikes, and other celtic/thracian/illyrian mixed units to go with/instead of their current selection?

[Dresden]

Building effects could be clearer I agree. The effect scope (what you are referring to - province/region) is often hidden in the game to avoid clutter. Also, if effects are too long or there are too many it causes a bug where the entire building effect screen is blank.

[Fondor_Yards]

Hm what about keep just the very basic and important stuff in the tool tip, then throw the full list of details in the building description text dump that opens up after you right click on it? Guess the only issue then is making sure people know to check in there.

[Dresden]

Hm what about keep just the very basic and important stuff in the tool tip, then throw the full list of details in the building description text dump that opens up after you right click on it? Guess the only issue then is making sure people know to check in there.

Yeah, that would be an issue but its not a horrible idea. The problem is that its a lot of work for questionable gain. With effects, they are automatically shown in game. If we wanted to use the long description text, we would have to manually enter every effect for every building in the text files. Then, if one was changed, we would have to change it there too.

We do actually have a lot of effects that are hidden. Roads, sight line increase, recruitment slots, etc etc. due to this issue. The other problem is that even if an effect says it applies to the region, that often may still apply to the province depending on the effect in question. The way the game handles effects and effect scopes is not very clear to the modder at times, much less to the player.

[Senticon]

In the middle of middle of r12 (older*) DEI playthrough. Gotta say, I don't know how you guys managed to turn such a bland and broken turd into a candy, but seriously, amazing job there. DEI makes Rome 2 so much deeper and, suprisingly, bugless experience! Almost unbelievable. Possibly one of the best TWs I've played to this day due to this mod. So, thank you, team, from the bottom of my heart!

Now, I have a little bit of a issue: since it's quite a hassle to maintain balance to avoid secession, I have to regularly send other party leaders on diplomatic trips (hoping it's their last trip, haha), but until now, other factions been giving me lands, so I successfully completed most my provinces. Now I cannot expand anymore, and they keep giving me provinces that hurt them and me both. I'd be very convenient if there was a function/mini mod/script/cheat anything at all to give it back to them or anyone. Because triggering squalor-rebellion to lose it forcefully feels tedious... I really don't care for immersive region trade mod, but I heard some sripting was possible to exchange territories, and just ability to give it away, even for free, would be great to have.

P.S. I still don't know why Normal is adviced difficulty for Battle. I currently play on Hard/Hard, and it feels absolutely great across the board, especially in battle. Even late game, with upgrades and veteran troops, I still can't stomp similarly matched enemy force. And with ~1000 men less, there's rarely a chance for me to dig out the victory, which is extremely trivial on Normal. That being said, I'm quite bad at strategy and unit control. The only weird thing here is that if I kill enemy general early, it has pretty much no impact on whole AI force morale, but if I lose mine, whole army routs in a minute or so, even with upperhand in battle. Still, it's actually pretty good for balance, since AI cannot protect general as player can...

[Jake Armitage]

I can write a pack for you, but you'll have to manually insert the regions you wanna gift
that would be easy though, I can explain

just don't use that intrigue

[Senticon]

I can write a pack for you, but you'll have to manually insert the regions you wanna gift
that would be easy though, I can explain

just don't use that intrigue

Eh, it could get a bit hectic with the pack. Guess it won't be a problem for me to write in and out regions, but I really don't wanna bother you with such a small thing.

Guess I'll just use that intrigue less, however, it's pretty good deal, as it has a lot of positives: no gravitas for other families, chance of good tribute sum, chance to kill off inconvenient family member without loyalty loss, research bonuses, etc.

CA is wierd though, they did tell us it is possible in one of patches for Rome II, plus it is no problem to trade regions in TWW2 with mod...

[Jake Armitage]

well we can build our own trading region anyway so it's not a big issue

I'll send you a pack with explanations, it will be easy

[MoraleBooster]

should i build temples in latium? they are my commerce money maker provinces, will making a temple there decrease the entire province taxation?

[Fondor_Yards]

If you want? Some temples boost commerce income, as well as increase order, increase your culture which also increases order (not an issue for latium anyways) and decrease squalor which can let you build high tier commerce buildings. So despite the decreased income they have built in they can improve your overall province income if you build the right ones.

The non-towered african elephants have a boost to hitpoints that the towered (and indian) ones do not. Is this intentional, to show the towers make them unbalanced or under greater stress from the weight?

[KAM 2150]

Tower elephants have more HP, despite showing less. I found out that game calculates soldiers on towers as another elephant for HP calc, it meant that tower elephants have two times more HP than elephants without tower. This is is why elephant HP is removed from UI to not confuse players.

Basically, when you look at tower elephant HP, you multiply it by 2 to get correct amount.

[Fondor_Yards]

Cool thanks, had been messing with them and noticed Atlas seemed to die more then the normal african ones so went poking around.

[Goffredo85]

shouldn't antesignani have the "expert charge defence" attribute as other similar spear armed skirnishers?