[Feedback] Questions, Critiques and Requests

[Furgon]

I have been quite critic against greek hoplite phalanx (being OP)

Yet hoplites beat crap out of polybian romans, as those also have disciplined formation and hence can only engage frontally. I guess this make romans the weakest
Seriously though, this flanking stuff makes it imperative to keep battleline solid all across the field. I find it better to not bother with counterattacks and just endure, until some peltasts or whoever come to rescue.

Athens can recruit Misthophoroi Phalangitai who are superior to AoR unit Makedonikoi Phalangitai (recruitable in Makedonia).

Technically, "misthophoroi" means "mercenary", so they are not Athenians (tho judging by their equipment, it's highly likely they are still greeks).

Athenian Hoplites almost of the same quality as Spartan Hoplites.

Spartans have enormous endurance, I think you missed that. I mean the real deal in their roster, not these AOR guys in your pic. And the logic behind AOR units being weak maybe that they represent fallen nations, lost legacy, forgotten traditions etc

[leonardusius]

Previously around 75% of defence was based on shield value, which was also not lowered by fatigue so even exhausted units still had that huge defence.mation.

This can be easily fixed by relating treshold_x with shield_armour and simulate a fatigued trooper being less protected by shield.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

The mercenary hoplites are also supposed to be better statistically because those are hardened troops that are already veteran hoplites.
This would make them veteran Combat versus freshly levied hoplites from the city.

[KAM 2150]

Leonardusius, that sounds like a rather bad solution for easy fix that I already made with changing hit chance calculation. What you proposed would still mean that ALL units have exact same hit chance.

I have been quite critic against greek hoplite phalanx (being OP) but at this latest version they seems a bit weak. I am in early mid game with Athens and I am finding hard to deal even with 'barbarian' nations. The thracians (and Dacians) were cutting my Athenian Hoplites in pieces with their rhomphaias (Falxes, Drhepanai) and while I considered this logical I found out that even germanic medium spearmen, or heavy infantry units had the upper hand.

In the case of medium spearmen (who are 300 men in huge) they surround the hoplites and create a lot of casualties. When I did a Boii campaign before this one I found out that 300 men units (despite being low in stats) holding a real value - maybe this case (300 men units) must be rethinked. The germanic swordsmen also seemed superior in head to head combat against even Logades (Elite Athenian Hoplites). Also missile damage even from the front (most barbarian units throw a pilum) gives a lot of casualties - I find it more logical when they shoot towards the unguarded side of the hoplites or to their rear to have such effect.


About the Athenian roster and AoR

1. Cavalry General has same stats as Athenai Hippeis (Medium Cavalry) and is inferior to Athenai Epilektoi Hippeis. I don't know if this is intended but usually generals are top tier units.


2. Athens can recruit Misthophoroi Phalangitai who are superior to AoR unit Makedonikoi Phalangitai (recruitable in Makedonia). IMHO since the Macedons were the inventors of this unit even the AoR one should be the best available and not the opposite. Misthophoroi Makedones Phalangitai at the current cost are redundant, maybe they could be offered as an elite pike unit? We have examples of elite AoR units (which is very accurate historically and adds to the gameplay) like for example the Sarmatian Cataphracts which is a superb shock cavalry unit.


3. Athenian Hoplites almost of the same quality as Spartan Hoplites. Not a Sparta fanboy but IMHO Spartans should be clearly of better quality. Better charge bonus (more ferocious than the Athenians), a little buff in their morale too, maybe better armor piercing (to represent the use of kopis).


4. Mercenary unit Misthophoroi Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi are supposed to be the same unit as the Thracian AoR Agrianoi Pelekophoroi? Besides the difference in the name they seem like being the same type of unit but one is 300 men while the other is 200. In Honga though they are listed as having 300 men.



Last but not least what are your tactics with hoplites? In battles I am favored to win I will usually charge them on the enemy (to capitalize on their charge bonus) then trigger the phalanx formation to consolidate their formation. In less favorable battle I will go phalanx from the beginning and wait the enemy trying to avoid gaps in between them and supporting their flanks with lighter infantry (or peltasts).

Getting back to units what have you experienced with Cordinau Orca (Elite Scordisci Swordsmen) a unit I like since Europa Barbarorum in RTW1. Do they perform? because in my Athenian campaign I don't feel like them being Elites. The best unit for the money so far are Agrianoi Pelekophoroi who despite their low armor can hold the line efficiently and are superb flankers. And a unit I always recruit to the max is Thyni Rhomphaiaphoroi their charge is just epic.

Athenian hoplites should be already slowly phased out by thureoporoi units you get, they are pretty much early game unit since their citizens did not engage in combat much and had rather poor martial skills, while Logades performed the role of professional soldiers. And no, 300 unit concept will not be rethined as it is working just fine, which your post actually proved. These units are rather weak in fair faight but their numbers give them advantage to offer larger frontage and ability to circle around other units. Otherwise, light units would be used for maybe first few turns but with this they still have use up to the later parts of the campaign. If you go to heavy, your army will just have small frontage and be easily surrounded.
Now the part with your hoplites being enveloped is not an issue for me but rather the way you use them. Why would you even let them be enveloped by other unit in the first place? It seems that you just send hoplites to 1v1 fights. Hoplites are overal a bit "outdated" troops but they are strong if used properly. You need to deploy them in lines without gaps between them and with light or medium troops to guard their flanks. That way your Logades will be kicking people around even in the late game. Hoplites have amazing missile protection but that does not mean you can just stand and wait, otherwise you just do exact same mistakes as Spartans did before light troops started kicking them around for lulz.

1. We might just switch these two units around. Overal there are some issues with generals and reforms but we might find a better solution.

2. Athenian Mistiphoroi Phalangitai are for the most part Macedonians as this is a unit made of mercenaries, just paid and equiped properly thanks to Athenian money.

3. First of, they are not of the same quality as Spartans are still better. Second, Spartans are not the same Spartans. When the campaign starts, Spartan hoplites are nothing special in the region, they even dropped Agoge so they do not get the training they used to. You can check Spartan preview for more details. Sparta has actually a bit more unique gameplay as your goal is to rebuild their might with historical social reforms. Check custom battles and see how good stats their STANDARD hoplites have in the late game

4. I will check that one as it seems inconsistent.

As for your hoplites tactics, I susped that is the cause why your hoplites underperform. You lose a lot of men just by trying to form a phalanx in the middle of combat since they are walking and being attacked without countering.
Cordinau Orca have elite version only avaliable to their factional roster, unit avaliable to all is not an elite unit.

Well, take hoplites for example. It would make sense if the high quality hoplites would benefit clearly more when in phalanx formation than the low quality ones. But now the bonus depends of their shield's defense value and not their personal skill...

But hoplites DO have different shields assigned depending on unit quality. While in hoplite phalanx personal skill with shield does not matter much as you don't use it that much since you must focus on locking shield with your buddies. Elite hoplites have still much higher defence compared to all other hoplites but are less fragile to flanking attacks due to higher base defence.

Is this true Kam? I thought the hit minimum was 15% and the hit cap is 85%, and the baseline was 40%? Are you sure the base is 25% and the min is 10%? What's the cap?

Also, can you confirm or fix this info:

• Armor: Blocks the weapon damage of an incoming attack. The amount blocked is a random number between 0 and the armor value. So unit with 10 armor blocks anywhere from 0 to 10 damage on an incoming attack. In-game observation suggests a unit will block ~70% of its armor value on average, though this is inconclusive. Regardless, be mindful of engaging troops with high armor if you have low weapon damage.

Hit chance will be as high as you want it to be. Values you posted are from the base game but if you want, you can just change minimum hit chance to be always 100%. Currently in DeI there is NO base hit chance so stats of units are actually true to what they have while they are mostly deceiving in base game or most of other mods (for example if you have base hit chance of 35% and unit A has 34 attack and unit B has 38 attack, they actually have 69 and 73 attack). Armour is overal tricky and in last few weeks calculation seems to be again changed by CA since my combat system was working perfectly just few days before patch 19 hit but totally broke combat after patch was released. Current combat is not nearly as good as the one I managed to get few days before patch 19 but sadly I don't have as much time and patience to try to get it back to that level. I tried a lot of solution but when you dedicate few years of your life to something to just get it to the trash for no good reason, you can feel a bit disheartened.

[Basilius]

Thank you Kam. As someone who enjoys the mod and your work I feel frustrated as well.

While it was negatively affected by Patch 19, the combat in DEI still feels very rewarding. No one would fault you for taking a break to rejuvenate your spirits.

[priam54]

Ok, thanks for the answer Kam, I will check more carefully my facts.

Armour is overal tricky and in last few weeks calculation seems to be again changed by CA since my combat system was working perfectly just few days before patch 19 hit but totally broke combat after patch was released. Current combat is not nearly as good as the one I managed to get few days before patch 19 but sadly I don't have as much time and patience to try to get it back to that level. I tried a lot of solution but when you dedicate few years of your life to something to just get it to the trash for no good reason, you can feel a bit disheartened.

This is what I was afraid of. I wish CA would never touched the game again, so we could enjoy the best possible DEI.
I don't have the statistics, but think how ironic it is, if DEI helped the game to stay alive, so CA decided to milk once again the poor players while putting obstacles in DEI development. We need a modern Karl Marx or something to analyse this phenomenon.

[Furgon]

Mercenary unit Misthophoroi Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi are supposed to be the same unit as the Thracian AoR Agrianoi Pelekophoroi? Besides the difference in the name they seem like being the same type of unit but one is 300 men while the other is 200.

I will check that one as it seems inconsistent.

Epirus also has 200 version. Ah, and they are recruited from 2nd pop pool, which seems a bit harsh.

[geala]

@ KAM: Thanks a lot for the info. I had a pause from TW and skipped the discussion. Your new system sounds very reasonable. For clarification, shield missile deflection chance is only applied from the front and left still?

Too bad they broke your combat system. It really hurts. To the armor, is it overpowered with the new CA nonsense or underpowered?

The guard button may be not the old, but it is better than nothing for the ranged troops.

[john909]

Hoplites have to be micromanaged well, the only time i see them receiving large casualties is when they are surrounded, so you just have to make sure that they don't, unfortunately the way a hoplite mod functions they often get into trouble by repositioning themselves into enemy formations, so I try and precalculate this happening and have infantry prepared to countercharge hostile forces whenever they are about to be positioned on my hoplites' flank.

You're comparing the Athenian faction phalangites to the AOR ones, AOR units are always inferior compared to the faction version, compare it to the actual Macedonian faction unit instead. The Spartan hoplites are superior to the Athenian ones in in both melee attack and melee defense with a lower rank of armor, symbolizing their reluctance to accept new equipment and technologies perhaps and the Athenian hoplites use the kopis as well so i don't really see any reason for some magical +armour piercing damage buff.

Unfortunately not only when surrounded (where they break fairly fast and is just fine) but also when swarmed from the flanks. Makedonikoi Phalangitai isn't a Macedonian unit but an AoR only unlocked with the tier 3 capital building (Hellenistic Kleroukhia). The basic Macedonian Pikemen unit is Chalkaspides. So it's not like we have two units of the same type a 'native roster one vs AoR one'. We have AoR units that present excellent value (some even are elites) and are welcomed in any composition.Like Sauromatae Uaezdaettae (Sarmatian Cataphracts), Kretai Toxotai (Cretan Archers), Thyni Rhomphaiaphoroi (Thyni Rhomphaia Warriors), Maedi Peltastai (Maedi Peltasts) and even more. The same goes for Thessalian Cavalry maybe the best greek cavalry of the Hellenistic era. Along with Phalangitai these units are redundant and only serve cosmetic purposes.

Yet hoplites beat crap out of polybian romans, as those also have disciplined formation and hence can only engage frontally. I guess this make romans the weakest
Seriously though, this flanking stuff makes it imperative to keep battleline solid all across the field. I find it better to not bother with counterattacks and just endure, until some peltasts or whoever come to rescue.
Technically, "misthophoroi" means "mercenary", so they are not Athenians (tho judging by their equipment, it's highly likely they are still greeks).
Spartans have enormous endurance, I think you missed that. I mean the real deal in their roster, not these AOR guys in your pic. And the logic behind AOR units being weak maybe that they represent fallen nations, lost legacy, forgotten traditions etc

Even Camillan Hastatii beat Athenian Hoplites easily despite they cost 2/3 of what the hoplites do (just do a custom battle). Can you please point to the stat of 'enormous stamina'? I can see both units have low stamina.

@KAM2150
Regarding 300 men units check this post I 've made when campaigning with a mediocre army against Egypt and I don't believe the autoresolve is lying. I could easily raise 5k armies and go through seer numbers almost against anything in my Boii campaign.

About hoplites and their use. I 've already written in my original post that I try to prevent gaps that's not the case though. You can't do much because the problem lies in the battle line length. The hoplite phalanx is a compact and very slow unit and has small length which always provokes the AI for enveloping you. Unless you can exploit the terrain for an advantage you 'll have to employ some nasty tricks to get a result when facing numerically superior armies. I recently posted a victory with a Boii village garrison against a Massalian hoplites full stack.

On #1 the same applies for Athenai Hoplites general (infantry unit).
On #2 I can understand the resemblance. It could just be that the recently defeated Macedons can still provide good quality local Pikemen. Same could apply to Thessalian Cavalry. Give AoR some reason to exist.
On #3 fair enough.
*In round 162 and still no reforms!

The mercenary hoplites are also supposed to be better statistically because those are hardened troops that are already veteran hoplites.
This would make them veteran Combat versus freshly levied hoplites from the city.

Spot on comment which doesn't apply in the case of Mercenary Phalangitai.

[Furgon]

Even Camillan Hastatii beat Athenian Hoplites easily despite they cost 2/3 of what the hoplites do (just do a custom battle). Can you please point to the stat of 'enormous stamina'? I can see both units have low stamina.

Yeah, and that's why I specifically say "polybian". Camillan units don't have formation attack ability. So despite reforms are supposed to improve your troops, both in equipment and discipline, that actually makes em weaker.
AFAIK most hoplites in the game have 1 point endurance (shown by "legs icon" in special ability section), just as these AOR hoplites on your pic. Spartan hoplites from spartan roster have... a lot? Somewhere around 5.

[JCB206]

This is what I was afraid of. I wish CA would never touched the game again, so we could enjoy the best possible DEI.
I don't have the statistics, but think how ironic it is, if DEI helped the game to stay alive, so CA decided to milk once again the poor players while putting obstacles in DEI development. We need a modern Karl Marx or something to analyse this phenomenon.

This!

@DEI team

Is there a location we can post “thank you” notes for Creative Assembly? Short, to the point and respectful posts. They can't be naive enough to believe that they are patching the game for us? They must know that most players are playing mods and these patches break them. We need a “forum” to discuss our displeasure with what they think is important. IE patches instead of giving the editing tools for maps, diplomatic mission, etc.

Thanks team.

[Furgon]

Edetani still use Cantabrian chapter missions, ever since their introduction. I reckon it can't be called a bug, it just shows how low a priority those missions are. I understand you got your hands full with all the recent fixing stuff and to-do list, which was put aside for the time being. But it's really high time to revise chapters and make them better fit DEI balance and new time frame. The matter is pending for years...

[Ivan_Moscavich]

We will go ahead and drop everything to focus on the chapter missions that have some outdated names.

You heard it here guys, revised chapter missions are more important than fixing the combat, Overhaulin diplomacy, and everything else were doing.

[Furgon]

You heard it here guys, revised chapter missions are more important than fixing the combat, Overhaulin diplomacy, and everything else were doing.

Hey, you overreacting a little. It's only your call to decide what's more important and what to work on. I asked this same question a couple years ago, so tried to give it another shot.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Sorry, I just felt like I needed to poke fun.

The truth is we're actually working on a bunch of techstuff right now that's part of it.
In mind we have a lot of stuff to fix for 1.2.3

[john909]

Yeah, and that's why I specifically say "polybian". Camillan units don't have formation attack ability. So despite reforms are supposed to improve your troops, both in equipment and discipline, that actually makes em weaker.

I made a custom battle again Polybian Hastatii (cost 825 denarii) vs Athenai Hoplites (cost 1020). The Hoplites lost again - you can make a custom battle yourself and see.

[geala]

I don't know how the DeI team intends it to be balanced but I could find arguments why such a result were not overly unrealistic.

Contrary to "legionaries vs pike phalanx" where the Romans always sucked hard, for "legionaries vs hoplites" I see the advantage for the legionaries. The hoplites had the range advantage, but they could not prevent the legionaries from coming near because spears work different to pikes. Then the legionaries with their big shields could protect them and with their relatively long swords could stab over the hoplite aspides.

The Romans were a militia, but a better trained militia than the usual hoplites. So I don't see an experience advantage for the hoplites.

There were some reasons why hoplite warfare was no longer the peak of combat in the 3rd century BC. Hoplites maybe were a bit too strong for some time in DeI (I used them a lot). I never felt motivated to change to the more "modern" thoureophoroi spearmen in my Hellenic campaigns.

[Don_Diego]

Agree, polybian troops should beat hoplites anyway, hoplites should not be so powerful in this timeframe.

[geala]

I would like to say something to the animations of the new DeI: it is awesome. I mostly played smaller custom battles with the new version till now and it is simply great to see so many moves again. It is also great that the overdone kungfu animations (flipping through the air f.e.) are rare. And not the last it is great that you don't see so many decaps and dismemberment. I nearly stopped playing Attila after CA had "improved" the blood mod, so that even stabs led to decapitation.

Is there an easy/dummy way to influence the chance of some animations to occur more than others? For example much more "wounded/dying" than immediate death? I'm a bit afraid of the R2 animations tables, trials to mod always led to crashes for me. I think it is not just one simple number to change ...?

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

I would like to say something to the animations of the new DeI: it is awesome. I mostly played smaller custom battles with the new version till now and it is simply great to see so many moves again. It is also great that the overdone kungfu animations (flipping through the air f.e.) are rare. And not the last it is great that you don't see so many decaps and dismemberment. I nearly stopped playing Attila after CA had "improved" the blood mod, so that even stabs led to decapitation.

Is there an easy/dummy way to influence the chance of some animations to occur more than others? For example much more "wounded/dying" than immediate death? I'm a bit afraid of the R2 animations tables, trials to mod always led to crashes for me. I think it is not just one simple number to change ...?

Diego and KAM did a great job indeed. We also did various tests with them and now they are much more balanced than ever before.
To easily test them, just increase the melee kill bonus against inf. But just for testing cause it will surely break the balance of KAM's changes.