Make Taxation Great Again

[Pontifex Maximus]

These changes will replace the current taxation rules which are so clunky that it usually means we never even bother with taxation to begin with.

-Land income totals (current provincial incomes listed in the rules) reflect the “base” income of a province for purposes of tax calculations.
-Minor lords shall collect 100% of their “base” provincial income because they have nobody to tax and for balancing purposes (they usually have crushingly low incomes anyway)

Taxation levels:
No taxes: Lord collects only 66% of the “base” provincial income
Moderate Taxes: Lord collects 100% of the “base” provincial income
Heavy taxes: Lord collects 133% of the “base” provincial income

Effect on player controlled provinces: If the overlord raises taxations to a certain level, the player controlled lord must forfeit his per capita share of the taxation levied among all lordly characters of the same rank. Per capita share is calculated by taking the total number of taxpaying lords, taking the difference between the current and next levels of taxation, and then dividing it among the taxpaying lords affected by the tax.

Effects on NPC Interactions: +2 for no taxes, -2 for moderate taxes, -4 for heavy taxes. For each year taxes are set to "Heavy taxes" there will be an added 10% stacking chance of NPC rebellion.

Taxes are only assessed at the feudal level directly beneath the one levying the tax upon those sworn to that lord, with the exception that the King can raise taxes on the High Lords of the Crownlands as well as the Lord Paramounts of the Realm, and not necessarily at the same time or on the same class of Lords or at the same rate.

Example: The King sets King's landing taxation to "No taxes" and collects 66,000/100,000 dragons for that year and gets +2 to NPC reactions for his direct NPC vassals.

Example 2: The King sets King's landing taxation to "Moderate taxes" and collects 100,000/100,000 dragons for that year and gets -2 to NPC reactions for his direct NPC vassals.

Example 3: The King sets King's landing taxation to "Heavy taxes" and collects 133,000/100,000 dragons for that year and gets -4 to NPC reactions for his direct NPC vassals. For year 1 of his tax rate, a D20 rebellion is rolled with a 10% chance of rebellion. For year 2, 20%. For year 3, 30% etc.


Thoughts

I think this is a good compromise between making taxes relevant without adding too much complication. More levels of taxation could be added, but then we might eb getting too complicated. I'll wait to see what you all think.

[Poach]

If the overlord raises taxations to a certain level, the player controlled lord must forfeit his per capita share of the taxation levied among all lordly characters of the same rank. Per capita share is calculated by the

This part appears to end mid-sentence.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Ah damn, that's what I get for copying/pasting from MS word. Give me a minute

[Dirty Chai]

This should apply to minor lords too, or none at all. Otherwise you upset the balance - it's all to scale.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I think I agree with you looking at it again

edit- actually no. Minor Lords have nobody to tax to achieve 100% of their base income. Instead of attaching some extra bannerman type bonus on income, I would prefer to just let Minor lords collect 100% of their already paltry province income, especially since it's likely that trickle down taxation rates will impact them at a disproportionately high rate.

[Dirty Chai]

Yes they do, their provinces are actually made up of many vassals in most cases - knights, freeholders, etc.

Why should minor lords get to collect 100% in their suzerain territory (which has vassals in it) while high lords and above cannot in their identical direct territory?

[Pontifex Maximus]

Because we have no mechanics for minor lords to extract revenues like that. I agree that they can/do/should, but we havent accounted for that much micromanagement in the rules and I'm not sure we should. That would mean in the off chance a minor lord interacts with a knight/merchant character (because we have no set number of NPCs for that) that minor lord could tax them on an even paltrier income. For the sake of simplicity I don't want to get that deep into the weeds.

[Dirty Chai]

I'm voting no on this then

[Poach]

So if I take a 70k province as an example and apply 100% taxation, I take 46,200 Dragons with no taxes and 70,000 with taxes, or a tax take of 23,800 at "moderate taxation".

That 23,800 Dragons is what comes from my minor vassals? So if I had 3 vassals below me, they'd be paying 7,933 Dragons each to me?

Just trying to understand the mechanics as they're proposed right now.

[Pontifex Maximus]

So if I take a 70k province as an example and apply 100% taxation, I take 46,200 Dragons with no taxes and 70,000 with taxes, or a tax take of 23,800 at "moderate taxation".

That 23,800 Dragons is what comes from my minor vassals? So if I had 3 vassals below me, they'd be paying 7,933 Dragons each to me?

Just trying to understand the mechanics as they're proposed right now.

That is correct, sort of fitting it into political perspective that would look like a high lord taxing minor lords.

[Pontifex Maximus]

In the current system minor lords can't levy taxes either.

[Dirty Chai]

If you want a better system of land organization and income (ie, tax and rents), then divide each province into "tenths" or so, as I suggested a while back. The lord owns some tenths (like 5/10ths perhaps) and the others are owned by his vassals within the province (local knights and what not). This allows for a whole new level to the feudal game, allows for consolidation (or the lack thereof), and for lord vs lord feuds to be better rewarded: for example, Bracken vs Blackwood, those villages they fight over would be represented as tenths from their provinces.

[Pontifex Maximus]

If you want a better system of land organization and income (ie, tax and rents), then divide each province into "tenths" or so, as I suggested a while back. The lord owns some tenths (like 5/10ths perhaps) and the others are owned by his vassals within the province (local knights and what not). This allows for a whole new level to the feudal game, allows for consolidation (or the lack thereof), and for lord vs lord feuds to be better rewarded: for example, Bracken vs Blackwood, those villages they fight over would be represented as tenths from their provinces.

That’s a big task to do that for every province we have listed in Westeros right now and probably not something worth doing if we can settle for a slightly less realistic fix that still gives us the option of moving much closer to reality with regards to taxation. I think getting 50% there is better than what we have right now, which is taxation is unnecessary and adds annoying extra work to do with rebellion rolls and things that can’t be automated.

[Poach]

I have a somewhat different proposal after giving it some thought.

The issue with taxation is that most players simply decide they don't need it: incomes are generally reasonable enough that you can get through your desired building tree and fund your 5k or 7k professional troops limit with what you have, and if you're too poor for that it's probably because you're a minor lord and thus can't tax anyone anyway. The small amount of extra money isn't usually worth taking because the only thing vassals are really good for is supplying troops, not money, right?

So let's make it about troops instead! Everyone always wants more for themselves, after all. Below is the current Taxation rules, with some proposed changes underlined.

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Taxation

Lords Paramount and High Lords can tax those below them, for a cost.
- Tax may be raised from subordinates in increments of 2.5% of their province's base tax. In addition, each 2.5% increment of taxation will transfer 100 professional unit cap points to the Lord issuing the tax.
- For every 2.5% tax, there is a -2 to levy call up rolls that year. This is done friday to friday, so if I collect 10% tax on Friday the 5th of May I have -8 to call-up rolls until Friday the 12th of May.
- For every 2.5% tax above 10%, a rebellion will be rolled. Base chance 8/20 (40%) with +2 for every 2.5% above 10%.
- If a rebellion is rolled, d[number of High Lords] + d[number of Minor Lords] will rise up, with a +1 modifier to the rolls applied at each 5% above 15%, with the Lords of the rebellion determined by the Mods. The chance of rebellion is not decreased by the charisma trait.


The King may also raise taxes, and these are paid by all Lords Paramount and High Lords.
- The King's Tax is separate from a Lord Paramount's tax. Thus, if the Lannisters are taxing their High Lords at 5% and the King raises a 5% tax, Westerlander High Lords will be paying 10% in taxes, while the Lannisters will also be paying the King 5%. The King's Tax will not transfer professional units points from the High Lords to the King (except of course where the King is taxing Crownlands Lords, as then he's treated as their Lord Paramount).
- The King's tax does not come with automatic rebellion mechanics, as Player Lord Paramounts will decide how to deal with any King's Tax.
- For every 5% King's Tax, +1 to any rolls for AI High Lords if they're forced to decide between siding with their King or their Lord Paramount.
- If the King chooses to only tax is own High Lords in the Crownlands and not every High Lord and Lord Paramount in the realm, then the King’s tax will follow the same rules as the Lord Paramount’s tax.

Who pays?

Lords Paramount can assume AI Lords will pay the taxes requested immediately unless they're taxing above 20%, then they need to see if a rebellion starts. If a rebellion does not start, the money is paid. If the rebellion starts, the rebelling Lords do not pay, and will pay if they are defeated and the money is demanded as a peace settlement.

The King can assume Crownlander AI Lords will pay the taxes based on the same rules as the Lords Paramount above (since the King is, in practical terms, the Lord Paramount of the Crownlands) and can assume non-Crownlander AI Lords will pay based on what the Lord Paramount of that region does. If he refuses to pay, no money will come. If he directs his subjects to pay only a portion of what the King asks for, only a portion will come. As such, what the AI Lords outside the Crownlands do is up to the Lord Paramount of each region asked to pay.

Anyone raising a tax can expect player Lords to make their own decision. A player Lord can pay or refuse to pay whatever he wants, though naturally refusing to pay tax, or paying the King tax in defiance of your Lord Paramount, may have consequences...

* * * * *

Comments

That's the current rule set with proposed changes underlined. The major change is that taxation will allow a player Lord to acquire more points for standing forces, something that is regarded as more valuable to players of all ranks. Lords Paramount will want more points, while High Lords won't want to give their points away. Rebellion mechanics also get beefed up in return. This does a number of things...

- Opens the way for legitimate "professional armies" RPs like we had in the last Blackfyre game. If you can force your subordinates to accept very high taxes (well above 10%) you can amass enough money and points to create a Blackguard of your own. Will your High Lords put up with it, though? Or can you put down the guaranteed rebellion?

- Makes taxation far more appealing: it's no longer just about money, it now translates directly to hard power. Eg...
---- Highgarden has 10 High Lord and 12 Minor Lord vassals. At 10% taxation, transferring 400 points each, that gives Highgarden 8,800 more professional points to use.
---- Casterly Rock has 10 High Lord and 6 Minor Lord vassals. 6,400 points.
---- Winterfell has 10 High Lord and 16 Minor Lord vassals. 10,400 points.
---- Riverrun, 8 High and 10 Minor, 7,200 points.
---- Eyrie, 8 High and 14 Minor, 8,800 points.
---- Storm's End, 5 High and 12 Minor, 6,800 points.
---- King's Landing, 5 High and 15 Minor, 8,000 points. Or 6 High and 10 Minor if Dragonstone is granted, 6,400 points. (but a player on Dragonstone will raise his own army, and we assume he's loyal to the King, right...?)
---- Sunspear, 7 High and 3 Minor, 4,000 points.
---- Pyke, 4 High and 2 Minor, 2,400 points.

That translates into a substantial army for the Lord Paramount, and for reasonable gains for High Lords (most have 2+ vassals, meaning 800+ points to offset the 400 they'd lose at maximum rebellion-free taxation). All this plus money to equip it with! If you can become so powerful as a Lord Paramount, or convince enough of your High Lords to follow you, and go substantially above 10%, you can end up with 15,000+ extra professional points (atop the 7,000 you can gain normally) and form a standing army that your own Kingdom can't easily oppose.

This will come with some sort of check and balance against forming standing armies like the Blackguard via other ways, like the Blackguard was. We can't have every game becoming a race to a professional army by just granting the non-hereditary titles or ruined holdfasts to people whose troops they'd then let you control.

[Pontifex Maximus]

I don't think adding a troop cap incentive will do much to increase use of what is essentially a voluntary tax system.

[Poach]

As discussed on Steam I disagree, but no one else seems to be contributing.

Anyone else got any thoughts, preferences, ideas of their own? Or is taxation as it stands now a sufficient system?

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