Andalusian Work/Research Thread

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Hey everyone, Slytacular and I have started collaboration on the Al-Andalus units. We have collected some sources and have some ideas, but we were looking to see if anyone here on the forums has some good suggestions they can contribute and maybe we'll add them in. Please back up all suggestions with good sources, and we prefer Andalusian or African sources to avoid Western bias, if you can find them. Things I'd also like to see in addition to units are banner ideas and a faction symbol. Here's some of our first unit designs:

Andalusian Heavy Infantry

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Andalusian Light Cavalry

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[You_Guess_Who]

Well, I'll just comment on the technical side of things...

1. How about making the new textures into pattern decals that in turn applied to the AoC teardrop shield? It have better base texture.
2. Similarly, make use of the muslim AoC round shield pattern decals. I see celtic patterns in there, replace them.

In turn, what interests me most is, as the westernmost Islamic Realm in the European continent itself, is how strong European arms and weaponry influence in High and Late period?

[Lucem Mundum]

I suggest using some of the models from the Hispania 1200 Warband mod, such as the Turbans, Moorish hoods, and helmets. We can also make some good use of the Al Mansur pack.

Hispania 1200

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Al Mansur pack (there are more helmets, but unfortunately the images aren't working)

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In turn, what interests me most is, as the westernmost Islamic Realm in the European continent itself, is how strong European arms and weaponry influence in High and Late period?

Regarding western equipment, these are the equipments of Muhammad XII of Granada

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[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

Andalusian Crossbowman (1 possible variation, not added to game yet)

[Sarcasm_pt]

Nasrid, XIV century, Casa del Partal

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[Kjertesvein]

Since it has jet to be mention, I'm quite curious about the earliest form of use of gunpowder in Europe, which apparently was in 1262. I'm curious if you guys have made up any sort of mind about it.

..The Arabs threw many (iron) balls launched with thunder, the Christians were very afraid of, as any member of the body hit was severed as if with a knife; and the wounded man died afterwards, because no surgery could heal him, in part because the balls were hot as fire, and apart of that, because the powders used were of such nature that any ulcer done meant the death of the injured man...


.. and he was hit with a ball of the thunder in the arm, and (the arm) was cut off, and died next day: and the same happened to all of those injured by the thunder. And even now the story is being told amongst the host...


..tiraban [los árabes] muchas pellas [bolas] de hierro que las lanzaban con truenos, de los que los cristianos sentían un gran espanto, ya que cualquier miembro del hombre que fuese alcanzado, era cercenado como si lo cortasen con un cuchillo; y como quisiera que el hombre cayera herido moría después, pues no había cirugía alguna que lo pudiera curar, por un lado porque venían [las pellas] ardiendo como fuego, y por otro, porque los polvos con que las lanzaban eran de tal naturaleza que cualquier llaga que hicieran suponía la muerte del hombre.


..et dieronle con una pella del trueno en el brazo, et cortarongelo, et murió luego otro dia: et eso mismo acesció a los qie del trueno eran feridos. Et aun la estoria va contando de los fechos de la hueste.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...e_gets_the_gun How verifiable is it? Would it be some sort of bronze works, such as the Loshult gun and similar early guns?

Some other related claims: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpow...ristian_Iberia

Nasrid, XIV century, Casa del Partal

Interesting find. I want to ask about the context of the images. It's apparently of some form of courtly nature. One can therefor assume they display the upper echelon of the area of origin. According from what I've gathered, the latter image is a reconstruction by Manuel López Vázquez. It appear to to be representing some sort of noble hunt, a prize of sort being taken back and lastly some sort of parade or festivity. Have I understood the context correctly?

Source. http://www.alhambra-patronato.es/elb.../piezaspartal/

~Wille

[Sarcasm_pt]

Interesting find. I want to ask about the context of the images. It's apparently of some form of courtly nature. One can therefor assume they display the upper echelon of the area of origin. According from what I've gathered, the latter image is a reconstruction by Manuel López Vázquez. It appear to to be representing some sort of noble hunt, a prize of sort being taken back and lastly some sort of parade or festivity. Have I understood the context correctly?

Source. http://www.alhambra-patronato.es/elb.../piezaspartal/

~Wille

Bear in mind that the reconstruction does not include everything on the mural, but it was too good not to post it. Indeed, the text reads...the upper frieze has represented in it festive scenes, the middle one is the return to camp with booty and prisoners, while the bottom one are hunting scenes. Here's a few more details I thought were interesting to show. Notice headgear and helmets with aventails, spears, the so called jineta swords, adargas, maille corselets, patterns, facial hair, method of riding (a la jineta), standards (writing is missing sometimes), horse decoration, the crossbows and the fact that the bolts are on the horse and not on the fighter.

[LinusLinothorax]

This website explicitly mentions that turbans were not a thing in Andalusia, especially after the fall of the Almohads: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/C...biCostume.html

"The turban, however, was never firmly established in Spain. Red or green wool caps -- ghifara -- or bare heads were commonplace among the Spanish [men] of all classes."
"By the 13th century "an Easterner in the turban and robes of the Levant was regarded as a curiosity"
"With the end of Almohad rule in Spain, Muslims there abandoned the wearing of the turban."

Nasrid, XIV century, Casa del Partal

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Sick pics, even though they kinda contradict what my website says..

[Sarcasm_pt]

This website explicitly mentions that turbans were not a thing in Andalusia, especially after the fall of the Almohads: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/C...biCostume.html

"The turban, however, was never firmly established in Spain. Red or green wool caps -- ghifara -- or bare heads were commonplace among the Spanish [men] of all classes."
"By the 13th century "an Easterner in the turban and robes of the Levant was regarded as a curiosity"
"With the end of Almohad rule in Spain, Muslims there abandoned the wearing of the turban."


Sick pics, even though they kinda contradict what my website says..

Not that I'm claiming to be an expert, but there are far far far too many examples in art to dismiss. Also, we know from literary sources that even Christian royalty (Castille and Aragon in particular) sometimes used Islamic clothing of sorts when going hunting, and that included turbans.

[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

This website explicitly mentions that turbans were not a thing in Andalusia, especially after the fall of the Almohads: http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/C...biCostume.html

"The turban, however, was never firmly established in Spain. Red or green wool caps -- ghifara -- or bare heads were commonplace among the Spanish [men] of all classes."
"By the 13th century "an Easterner in the turban and robes of the Levant was regarded as a curiosity"
"With the end of Almohad rule in Spain, Muslims there abandoned the wearing of the turban."


Sick pics, even though they kinda contradict what my website says..

Thanks for posting. After reading the site, while he does say eastern turbans were never FIRMLY established in Spain, he does go on to say "The Mahdi Ibn Tumart criticised the people of Bidjaya for wearing sandals with gilded laces, turbans not in the Muslim fashion" and also "The Almohads, like all Berbers, including the Almoravids before them, wore the bernus and the kisa'. They wore a form of turban called kursiyya"

What I think we can use from this for the purpose of the game is that turbans are okay to use. He says that at vatious time periods they were more or less strict on fashion emulating eastern styles. He particularly mentions the Almohads (who ruled in spain at the mods time period) as one of the groups that dressed more like the eastern arabic style. Therefore I don't think your site contradicts what is depicted in the Nasrid images.

Sly is working on a more distinctly andalusian turban that will help with that as well.

[zsimmortal]

Hey guys, gonna dump some images then some text. I know you said Andalusian sources, but there's some good Spanish artwork of Moors so I included them.

Possibly Nasrid Sallet :

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http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1983.413/

Fresco of Alhambra (1325-1350) - Andalusian :

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Painted ceiling from Alhambra (1380) - Andalusian :

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'Bodyguard of the Sultan' (A), 'Saracens besiege Constantinople' (B), 'Moors' (D), El Escorial Library (Late 13th) - Spanish :

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'Moors' (C, E), same source :

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'Moors' (F, G), same source :

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'Moors' (H), same source :

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'Moors' (I), same source / 'Muslim soldiers' (546A), 'Sword of Arab' (B), 'Sword of Christian' (C), same source :

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'Muslim army', Museo de Artes de Cataluna (late 13th) - Spanish :

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Here's some light reading for the Andalusian military of the 13th and 14th century. Enjoy

http://imgur.com/a/b9VIk

[Sarcasm_pt]

Nasrid Sword, ca. 1480

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Nasrid Sword/Estoc Scabbard, ca. 1325

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Nasrid Sword Scabbard, ca. 1350

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Nasrid dagger, ca.1350

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Nasrid Stirrups for riding "a la jineta", ca. 1300

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Sala de los Reys, ca. 1396-1408

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[Slytacular]

Nice! I'll look at those as I'm making Andalusian assets.

[Sarcasm_pt]

Finally found a proper image of the sword/estoc:

[You_Guess_Who]

Sallets! Interesting. If they got that, maybe the European influence is quite deep (or perhaps that's just the Emir's personal collection rather than representative of the army's equipment, but eh,) So its won't be a stretch for them to use more european-inspired armor? Andalusians are known for their love for crossbows compared to their Muslim brethrens. At least, they might used brigandine if we consider that dotted shirt on the Alhambra fresco is a Coat of plates/brigandine.

[Kjertesvein]

This helmet looks good, but the link state this most likely isn't a battlefield helmet. I've heard it was a sporting related helmet, possibly related to horse racing games between Muslims and Christians of Iberia. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_1983.413.jpg

The bowl has been pierced to fit the enamels and is lined with riveted plates to support them, indicating that the helmet was created exclusively for ceremonial use.

~Wille

[Sarcasm_pt]

This helmet looks good, but the link state this most likely isn't a battlefield helmet. I've heard it was a sporting related helmet, possibly related to horse racing games between Muslims and Christians of Iberia. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_1983.413.jpg

~Wille

I'm always weary about classifying objects as purely ceremonial - throughout history warriors and even professional soldiers have always worn or used items of not particularly practical nature. Considering the nature of the object, I would much rather attribute it to a flashy or even important individual that in the extreme would not even be meant to enter combat.

[Sarcasm_pt]

'Book of Fixed Stars' (Kitāb suwar al-kawākib al-ṯābita)
by ‛Abd al-Rahman ibn ‛Umar al-Ṣūfī made in Ceuta, 1224

[Sarcasm_pt]

And now maybe some inspiration, credit of course to FritzVicari @ deviantart:

Andalusia, XIII century:

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Battle of Ecija, 1275

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Battle of Jerez, 1231

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[The_Fawn_Rescuer]

First crack at a Tier 1 roster based on contributions in this thread. I would love some help with unit names, if you know something. No banners yet because I need a different banner model

General

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Andalusian Knights

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Andalusian Heavy Infantry

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Andalusian Crossbowmen

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Spearmen

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Mounted Archers

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Light Cavalry

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Mounted Skirmishers

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Levy Skirmishers

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Levy Archers

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Mounted Crossbowmen

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