Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Golden Horde

[Dontfearme22]

It sounds like you know very little about Golden Horde. I assume you know who Shiban is. So Batu khan gave Shiban oglan "el" (15K yurts) made of 4 tribes" qushchi, naiman, buyrak and qarluq. Tuqa timur received el from "qauvchin" (privileged part of troops) 4 tribes" ming, tarhan (kilingud), uyshun amd oyrat.

Now can you tell me out of those 8 tribes that took part in western campaign which are mongol or turk in origin?
here is a little tip for you: Rashiddin explains in detail origin of each tribe mentioned.

Now they subjugated bulgars, magyars, alans, bashkirds, as, qipchaq, suvar, udmurt and rus. Which of these tribes are slavic, ugric and turkic?

Do you see why i was asking you to delete turkic archers as a separate group? Batu's army was made of turkic and mongol tribes and they together marched west and obileterated everything and everyone that stood against them. Those turkics were trained like mongols. It is a historic fact.

I'm not going to take a history quiz.

It is historic fact that the Mongol armies had both turks and mongols in them, but there is a linguistic distinction here. Turkic and Mongolic languages are not related to each-other so even if they had similar appearance they were still different lingustically, and this is not taking into account other differences between them culturally. Turks and Mongols are very close, but they are not interchangeable.

I freely admit that my decision to have visually distinct Turkic units in addition to Mongol units in tier 1 is subjective, because I want to show that the armies of say, Batu Khan incorporated western Turkic groups into the Mongol army which might have originally already had more easternly Turkic tribes in it. It is important to note though, that the Kipchaks and Cumans were not originally part of the Mongol army but became part of it later. Rather than having distinct units for every Turkic group conquered as the Mongols went west, I decided to have generic singular Turkic units instead.

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[OutsiderKK]

Turks were only trained like Mongols in the late era because they didn't have the Mongol numbers. That is why Golden Horde was actually Turkicized. I agree with Dontframe22 in this one.

[You_Guess_Who]

Now, talking from technical perspective, it is possible for a convergent unit upgrade, where more than one unit can be upgraded into a single type of unit when the technology is researched.

So, for example, it is possible for both T2 Mongol and Turkic unit to be upgraded into T3 Turkic unit. However, divergent upgrade are not possible technically.

[kultegin]

The only difference the mongols and turkics had (in euroasian steppe) is language. Culturally both groups were the same nomadic societies with Tengri as their gods. Batu khans army had eastern turkic groups like qarluq, qushchi, buyraq, turkmen, kirgiz, uyshun and so on. Do you see ming tribe given to tuqatimur? It was made of original 4K mongol troops given to Jochi khan and other eastern turkic group which provided conscripts before western campaign. It was a numerous but mixed tribe. Subedei was that genius.

Batukhan incorporated not only western turkic groups but ugric groups like (magyar, suvar, udmurt), sarmatian groups (like as and alan). Western turkic groups were collectively known as kipchak and they identified themslves as kipchaks not turk. Kipchaks were a confederation like mongols and comprised of numerous tribes.
When Jebe and Subedei passed Derbent, they faced united forces of alan, as and qipchaq. They sent qipchaq the following message: "You and us are of the same origin, why would you support them who are not one of us" and qipchaq left the alliance. Subedei was from uranhai tribe which is the part of modern tuvan people who are turkic

Later on Golden Horde had not only qipchaq but as and alan who are sarmatian-iranian group. Magyar and suvar which are ugric group were incorporated into mongol army as well. All of those tribes became part of the forming nations in Euroasian steppe after fall of GH.
So those tier 1 turkic troops have as, alan, magyar in them too? those non turkic tribes were powerful and numerous and they never considered themselves as turks. As tribe still speaks their iranic language and called osetians and live in Osetia region of Russia. Alans live in Alania region of Russia. While other trukic and mongols are part of Bashkord, Tatar, Nogai, Kazakh and Uzbek nations.
It is up to you. But you are suppressing GH history and legacy. Your work should be labeled as dev's own fantasy rather than historic.

[Dontfearme22]

The only difference the mongols and turkics had (in euroasian steppe) is language. Culturally both groups were the same nomadic societies with Tengri as their gods. Batu khans army had eastern turkic groups like qarluq, qushchi, buyraq, turkmen, kirgiz, uyshun and so on. Do you see ming tribe given to tuqatimur? It was made of original 4K mongol troops given to Jochi khan and other eastern turkic group which provided conscripts before western campaign. It was a numerous but mixed tribe. Subedei was that genius.

Batukhan incorporated not only western turkic groups but ugric groups like (magyar, suvar, udmurt), sarmatian groups (like as and alan). Western turkic groups were collectively known as kipchak and they identified themslves as kipchaks not turk. Kipchaks were a confederation like mongols and comprised of numerous tribes.
When Jebe and Subedei passed Derbent, they faced united forces of alan, as and qipchaq. They sent qipchaq the following message: "You and us are of the same origin, why would you support them who are not one of us" and qipchaq left the alliance. Subedei was from uranhai tribe which is the part of modern tuvan people who are turkic

Later on Golden Horde had not only qipchaq but as and alan who are sarmatian-iranian group. Magyar and suvar which are ugric group were incorporated into mongol army as well. All of those tribes became part of the forming nations in Euroasian steppe after fall of GH.
So those tier 1 turkic troops have as, alan, magyar in them too? those non turkic tribes were powerful and numerous and they never considered themselves as turks. As tribe still speaks their iranic language and called osetians and live in Osetia region of Russia. Alans live in Alania region of Russia. While other trukic and mongols are part of Bashkord, Tatar, Nogai, Kazakh and Uzbek nations.
It is up to you. But you are suppressing GH history and legacy. Your work should be labeled as dev's own fantasy rather than historic.

Speaking on the Magyars, I believe (but I don't know much about Magyar history), that they had migrated to Hungary several centuries before the Mongol invasions, and as for other Ugric groups, I had records from the 1400s mentioning them serving with some of the northern Khanates so for tier 3 I added some Ugric units. Can't say on sarmatian groups despite that they were destroyed by the Mongol conquests and subsequently by Timur. The Kipchaks were still ethnically turkic, even if they didn't call themselves turks first instead of Kipchaks first, and the letter to the Kipchaks likely references the mythical ancestry point of the steppe peoples in the Altai mountains, and regardless the Kipchaks were certainly closer to the Mongols than the Russians or Alans. When I said originally that the initial mongol armies had both turks and mongols in them, groups like the urankhai are definitely a example (tuvan for example, is strongly influenced by mongolian linguistically). Plus, I already said that I assumed Batu Khans army had eastern and northern Turkic groups in it, who are visually indistinguishable from Mongols.

I never said the tier 1 turkic troups had alans, magyars etc. in them because those groups aren't turkic, why would they be in a unit specifically designed to represent the turkic tribes incorporated by the Mongol army as it moved west?

If I was going for total, complete accuracy I suppose I could have a naiman unit, a buryat unit, some alans, georgians, armenians, qipchaks, cumans, volga bulgars, various uralic tribes like the udmurts etc., but its just impractical, and I think the distinctions between the buryats and oirats visually are so obscure if we know them at all to be pointless, while comparing oirats to western cumans would actually have visually distinct units. See what I'm getting at? I have to adapt very scattered, fragmentary history to a set roster of units and make it interesting and make it work in the format of a game. I admit I don't know everything, and I also admit that it is damn hard finding a good english translation of the Jami-al-Tawariq as well.

Final Clarification-----

The Turkic units in the Tier 1 Golden Horde roster are meant to represent the mix of western, Turkic peoples incorporated into the 13th century Mongol armies in Russia. They do not represent any single, specific tribe but rather a generic salad of the Steppe peoples that existed between the region around Mongol and Central Asia, to the end of the steppe region in Eastern Europe. This goes for all units named generically as Turkic in both mongol rosters for both tiers. They operate on the same principle as units like the Siege Levy, where they represent a simplified view of how the Mongols incorporated many conquered peoples into their armies. It is far easier, and simpler to create 1 unit to represent broad swathes of ethnicity recruited into Mongol armies than trying to piece the various ethnic groups 1 by 1. It is not as it would have been historically, but this is a videogame, and it is in my opinion a good compromise between the facts I have seen and the units I have to make.

Lastly, don't accuse me of suppressing GH history and legacy, when I have worked very hard to produce what I think, is compared to other interpretations of the GH is media, a very accurate rendition, but I guarantee it is not real, there are many mistakes and corners cut both known and unknown. If I wanted to suppress the GH's legacy, I wouldn't have done any work on them all, please don't condescend to me.

[kultegin]

Ok i see what you are saying. Thank you very much for hard work man. It is much appreciated.
Isn't it better to rename them as western turkic troops? or western turkic conscripts? Maybe Cumans? Turkic is broad and general term to represent both eastern and western turkic groups, also those turkics of middle east that were persianized or islamized.

The game represents GH as an established state. Batu khan was not strong in the early stages of GH, as all other non-jochid princes left him with their tumens. There were rival princes from the house of Ogedei khan that could be elected, as great khan. Batu khan actively supported the house of Tolui. If ogedei princes became khan in karakorum, it would mean a war. Batu khan had no choice but to recruit both turkics and non turkics and train them like turk-mongols in his army. and we are talking about very early stages of GH. Kipchaks was a confederation made of 15-20 tribes. it was not just a simple tribe. Some of those kipchak khans ran to Hungary, some resisted 10-12 more years, but some of those tribes in kipchak confederation submitted to mongols.

I know it is complex and hard work. At least renaming them as western turkic conscripts or simply cumans would be more accurate than using broader term like turkic.

Mongols didn't use local turkics for siege battles. Turkics were nomads and mobile compared to chinese and k-shah settled population. Mongols took those russian cities themselves after hard fought battles. That's why campaign lasted 7 years.

Here is the work of Rashaddin Jamaati Tavarih. It is in russian tho. http://www.vostlit.info/haupt-Dateie....phtml?id=2057

[Dontfearme22]

Ok i see what you are saying. Thank you very much for hard work man. It is much appreciated.
Isn't it better to rename them as western turkic troops? or western turkic conscripts? Maybe Cumans? Turkic is broad and general term to represent both eastern and western turkic groups, also those turkics of middle east that were persianized or islamized.

The game represents GH as an established state. Batu khan was not strong in the early stages of GH, as all other non-jochid princes left him with their tumens. There were rival princes from the house of Ogedei khan that could be elected, as great khan. Batu khan actively supported the house of Tolui. If ogedei princes became khan in karakorum, it would mean a war. Batu khan had no choice but to recruit both turkics and non turkics and train them like turk-mongols in his army. and we are talking about very early stages of GH. Kipchaks was a confederation made of 15-20 tribes. it was not just a simple tribe. Some of those kipchak khans ran to Hungary, some resisted 10-12 more years, but some of those tribes in kipchak confederation submitted to mongols.

I know it is complex and hard work. At least renaming them as western turkic conscripts or simply cumans would be more accurate than using broader term like turkic.

Mongols didn't use local turkics for siege battles. Turkics were nomads and mobile compared to chinese and k-shah settled population. Mongols took those russian cities themselves after hard fought battles. That's why campaign lasted 7 years.

Here is the work of Rashaddin Jamaati Tavarih. It is in russian tho. http://www.vostlit.info/haupt-Dateie....phtml?id=2057

I'm glad you understand, all's good

I'll address the point about sieges, you are right that Turks were nomads and mobile. The Mongols were as well, it seems the only times either group consistently fought on foot were in siege assaults. The only times when they dismounted as far as I can tell according to the scattered detailed records of individual sieges were to attack a city, like at the fortress of Klis in Croatia. I actually argued internally to have no such units and let the player have their cavalry dismount if they wanted to fight on foot, but given how few foot units that would have left the GH with we decided to keep them, otherwise they would just be very unbalanced compared to the Ilkhanate which actually has lots of foot soldiers anyways. For siege battles, the mongols used artillery, infantry and [obviously] archers. One such type of unit was the infamous human-wall, in some sources called the Kharash. This is where prisoners of war were sent before a army to soak up fire and protect the actual siege equipment.

For Turkic units, I understand your concerns. I mean you were right historically, its just we were arguing a decision I made based on gameplay concerns, not history. I like the idea of Western Turks. I do want to change the look of the turkic units so maybe when I rename them to that I'll tweak their look to be a bit more region specific, but that is going to be in a while because of IRL work.

Thanks for the link, but sadly I can't speak Russian either. I do think I once had access to a English copy online but for the life of me I can't find it now.

[kultegin]

understandable. it must be enormous and hard work.

You are doing great job with limited resources! i applaud that. i wish all the resources i have was available in english. GH territory is russia now, so most of the medieval sources were translated into russian by russian, tatar, kazakh and bashkurd academics.

[kultegin]

Look what i found.
original Jami al tawarikh in persian. it is in arabic script but all of those drawings are in there. http://images.is.ed.ac.uk/luna/servl...4~4&mi=0&trs=1

This is the result google books gave me:
https://books.google.com/books?q=edi...d=n6VmAAAAMAAJ

[Knight2708]

Really col roster and units imho, although some of the screenshots are kinda bad, especially those where the units have the sun behind them are really hard on the eyes. One thing seems kind of odd to me is that some of the handgunners wear masks which I would imagine would really obscure their vision and be very impractical for a unit like this.

[Dontfearme22]

I have a copy of Jami-al-Tawarikh that does have the illustrations in great detail, but nothing as to a actual translation, thanks for the help regardless. If you have any knowledge of english versions of any resources you use, please send me them in a pm, they'd be very helpful.

As for masks, I think people are surprised as to how comfortable a mask can actually be. A tight-fitting mask of any kind really doesn't interfere with your vision greatly as long as the eyes aren't actually covered. Its when a mask is loose and far from the face that it begins to obscure the eyes.

[Knight2708]

As for masks, I think people are surprised as to how comfortable a mask can actually be. A tight-fitting mask of any kind really doesn't interfere with your vision greatly as long as the eyes aren't actually covered. Its when a mask is loose and far from the face that it begins to obscure the eyes.

Okay, still looks kind of weird to me. Something about the masks just doesnt really fit the unit's overall aestheticism, maybe its just me.

Also why are Genoese crossbowmen part of the GH's roster? I mean I guess they could recruit them as mercenaries when they get that far west, but why include them specifically in the roster?

[Dontfearme22]

Okay, still looks kind of weird to me. Something about the masks just doesnt really fit the unit's overall aestheticism, maybe its just me.

Also why are Genoese crossbowmen part of the GH's roster? I mean I guess they could recruit them as mercenaries when they get that far west, but why include them specifically in the roster?

There were actually Genoese colonies in the Crimea during the timeperiod, and were ruled somewhat indirectly by the Golden Horde. Some sources also indicate the Khans highly valued their military skill and recruited them when they could afford it.

[Knight2708]

There were actually Genoese colonies in the Crimea during the timeperiod, and were ruled somewhat indirectly by the Golden Horde. Some sources also indicate the Khans highly valued their military skill and recruited them when they could afford it.

Ah, okay, thats pretty cool. Maybe you could change their name to reflect their special background. Something like Crimean/Eastern Genoese Crossbowmen or Genoese Colonists/Colonial Crossbowmen could work.

[Filips Augustus]

Those Genoese crossbowmen are all over the place in the Middle-Ages .

[Knight2708]

The units Mangudai Cavalry, Turkish Heavy Horse Archers, Cuman Subject Cavalry, Rus Levy Infantry, Cuman Lancers, Turkic Cavalry and Uralic Tribesmen form the preview seem to be missing from the current release. Did I install something incorrectly (this is the only faction where I have noticed lacking units) or were they removed and if so why?

[Danishmend]

Shouldn't Kurdish Brigands be in Ilkhanate's roster? I mean, were there Kurdish troops in Golden Horde armies?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Dontfearme22]

Shouldn't Kurdish Brigands be in Ilkhanate's roster? I mean, were there Kurdish troops in Golden Horde armies?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

There are some textual references to specifically kurdish bandits / raiders following Mongol armies during eastern european and caucasian campaigns.

Also, @Knight2708 some units get shuffled around and held back because of the transition between previews and release, its a part of development. Future patches might shuffle the roster around more but the general pattern itself will stay the same thats a guarantee.

[Visarion]

Will the Chagatai be included as well or will the Kwarezmians / Ghurids evolve into Chagatai / Turkomans / Mamluks / Mughals / Persians

[zsimmortal]

Will the Chagatai be included as well or will the Kwarezmians / Ghurids evolve into Chagatai / Turkomans / Mamluks / Mughals / Persians

They're already integrated into the Ilkhanate in terms of style and I believe there's both a Chagatai unit and a Turko-Mongol unit. I don't understand the second part of your question, especially why the Mughals would be present in the game since the battle of Panipat is in 1526.