Medieval Kingdoms Total War: The Golden Horde

[Dontfearme22]

A quick closeup of a new Golden Horde banner amid a tier 3 test battle I ran:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[dogukan]

Reneissance painting material right there...

[Dontfearme22]

Updated Golden Horde with all 3 tiers. It is not as extensive nor am I as satisifed with it as I am with the Ilkhanate. I chalk that up to a relative lack of sources mostly, but I intend to flesh it out more and more through updates, although hopefully as it is now it is quite adequately playable.

Still, hope you enjoy

mongol mongol

[finix]

Could someone of our teammates make a better screenshots? Coz all screenshots are awful, sorry Dontfeame.
Another thing, I don't see a foot mongols-archers or macemen, instead, you use again many locals. Why?
Golden Horde had to have more mongolian units at his core

[Dontfearme22]

Could someone of our teammates make a better screenshots? Coz all screenshots are awful, sorry Dontfeame.
Another thing, I don't see a foot mongols-archers or macemen, instead, you use again many locals. Why?
Golden Horde had to have more mongolian units at his core

I have a cocktail of filters running on my computer which is probably causing the strong lighting, which is what I am guessing the issue is. I'll retake the screenshots with the filters disabled for you.

I have no dismounted mongol units since I couldn't find a single explicit reference to Mongols fighting on foot in the context of the golden horde. The core was absolutely mongols but there just isn't much variety in terms of core composition. Horse archers are horse archers, if your playing the Golden Horde and you aren't using largely the same 4 units within a tier for the bulk of your army you're probably playing it wrong.

[finix]

I have a cocktail of filters running on my computer which is probably causing the strong lighting, which is what I am guessing the issue is. I'll retake the screenshots with the filters disabled for you.

I have no dismounted mongol units since I couldn't find a single explicit reference to Mongols fighting on foot in the context of the golden horde. The core was absolutely mongols but there just isn't much variety in terms of core composition. Horse archers are horse archers, if your playing the Golden Horde and you aren't using largely the same 4 units within a tier for the bulk of your army you're probably playing it wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEIC0IYZSng

Yes it is a movie, but i see a lot reference here

[Dontfearme22]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOVVYswNE-c

Yes it is a movie, but i see a lot reference here

Would you believe me if I said I owned Mongol on blu-ray? Great movie, absolutely love it. But, if it ain't in the sources or at-least close to them my hands are tied. I do use secondary and tertiary sources when I don't have recourse but I can't really get any historical value from movies, no matter how much I like them.

[Heisenburrg]

First of all I want to say that you made a very impressive job with the mongolians- both in quality and quantity. Keep going
Now to the constructive criticism. I fully understand the reason for so much local troops, but indeed; the roster lacks at infantry... even for mongols. One or two mongolian infantry units like maceman or swordsman could really be added.

[Dontfearme22]

First of all I want to say that you made a very impressive job with the mongolians- both in quality and quantity. Keep going
Now to the constructive criticism. I fully understand the reason for so much local troops, but indeed; the roster lacks at infantry... even for mongols. One or two mongolian infantry units like maceman or swordsman could really be added.

Thats been something I've been grappling with, because the Golden Horde just consistently doesn't seem to reliably use native infantry at all. Its all local regional levies if they use foot-solders in the first place. Now, after talking internally I have compromised and I have added two foot infantry units, Siege Swordsmen and Dismounted Druzhina. Neither are native Mongol soldiers but both are foot sword medium-heavy infantry and both still relatively fit with the period information. I'll be adding their pictures once I am done re-doing all the Golden Horde screenshots.

@Finix, do the Ilkhanate screenshots need to be totally redone as well?

[Heisenburrg]

Your solution with the additional units sounds like a good compromise

Anyway, the thing with mongolian infantry is; I really can´t imagine, that the Horde´s core troops did not include some sort of full-fleshed infantry units/tactics for situations in which cavalry is simply not useful (sieges, battles in difficult terrain and so on). At least at the start of their expansion they had to be very familiar with this and their army should have included such a concept. Sure, in later periods they adopted more and more local infantry troops, but the mongolian army would not have been one of the most innovative, flexible and successful armies if their core troops had missed this essential aspect.

[Dontfearme22]

Your solution with the additional units sounds like a good compromise

Anyway, the thing with mongolian infantry is; I really can´t imagine, that the Horde´s core troops did not include some sort of full-fleshed infantry units/tactics for situations in which cavalry is simply not useful (sieges, battles in difficult terrain and so on). At least at the start of their expansion they had to be very familiar with this and their army should have included such a concept. Sure, in later periods they adopted more and more local infantry troops, but the mongolian army would not have been one of the most innovative, flexible and successful armies if their core troops had missed this essential aspect.

They weren't missing this aspect, and its a mistake to assume that a successful army needs to have a infantry component. Since the beginning of steppe warfare armies have moved wholly, or largely without infantry and done very well in those environments. One of the reasons the Mongols didn't penetrate many regions of Eurasia was likely because those areas couldn't sustain a mounted horde (i.e. Western Europe). Now, sieges were absolutely a situation where the Mongols used foot infantry because well...you can't get a horse to climb a siege tower And there are references to Mongols being themselves foot infantry when needed. For example during one of the invasions of Hungary the Mongols fought hand-to-hand on foot during the siege of Spis castle (Historia Salonitanorum Atque Spalatinorum Pontificum, pg.299).

Again though, these were mounted troops dismounted specifically for a singular purpose, they were not designed nor intended to be foot-soldiers. The Mongols were successful, in my opinion, because they were able to combine the incredibly speed and manuverability of a fully mounted steppe horde with precise organization, effective generals and a mastery of siege warfare. The greatest defense of a sedentary nation against a horde is its fortresses, but once the horde can destroy those fortresses they really can't be stopped by a non-mounted army.

[Filips Augustus]

Again though, these were mounted troops dismounted specifically for a singular purpose, they were not designed nor intended to be foot-soldiers.

That can be said about many dismounted knight units in the mod. These infantry are just needed for balance purposes, since a force full of cavalry is a hell to micromanage, and are very vulnerable to arrow towers and whatnot during sieges. I'm not certain how well the Rus' spearmen can hold out in single combat with, let's say, European dismounted knight units. Purely from a gameplay perspective I agree that the Mongols should have some more sword infantry as well, even if it is in the form of dismounted cavalry.

[Heisenburrg]

@Dontfearme22
Agree, but I have to clearify my point in terms of infantry a little bit; not the infantry itself was absolutely essential but the existence of proper infantry concepts - so training and tactics for combats head to head and on foot, even for full-fleshed cavaliers. (or the contrary; the ability to fighting effective on horseback, even if the soldier is classified as "infantryman") This makes the (like you said) so important mobility and flexibility of an army and is IMO the main aspect for the mongol´s success.
If you are in a situation where fighting on horseback is not possible (and this happens often; we talked about sieges, but forrests, mountainous country or soft-ground-battlefields are possible too) and you send your soldiers, which are not trained for a close combat in the breach, in streets or on the field, for fighting in formations or the combat with infantry equipment without having the mobility of a horse, it´s very likely that they´ll lose the fight against enemies, which are trained for this.

So, measured by their success, I bet that the progressive mongolian army was not a rigid force of pure cavaliers, who only knew how to fight properly on horseback and destroy fortresses with siege engines, but a force, which had advanced tactics and concepts for all situations, even for the use of infantry (may it consists of former cavalryman or not ). And because of that I would consider the complete absence of native infantry units as very unlikely.

[Dontfearme22]

I have added two units to the Golden Horde tier 2, that will be available to tier 3 as well. They are Siege Swordsmen and Dismounted Druzhina, representing respectively units of turkic / rus infantry drawn up for sieges as well as Russian client nobles who were known to have been attaches on many Mongol expeditions. Hopefully they fill the gap of medium-heavy infantry in the Golden Horde roster.

@Heisenburg The Mongols had tactics and concepts for all situations, but in their specific campaigns there were few situations that couldn't be resolved with cavalry and perhaps the occasional choice use of infantry, and I would like to point out two things:

- The Golden Horde does have infantry but they are regional infantry, not Mongol infantry specifically. As I said, I can't find any references to Mongols fighting on foot in any sort of regular situation beyond where it was specifically required like assaulting a breach in a siege.
- The Golden Horde was fighting in terrain overall more receptive to steppe warfare than the Ilkhanate was.

I am more receptive to the balancing argument because it leans less on historical theory but I am still very hesitant, for the reasons I have laid out above. Now, I obviously opened a can of worms here and I think a lot of the arguments essentially boil down to how people perceive both how the Mongols fought, and how they should be played as a faction. The most I can say is that I will mull it over quite seriously. If not now, then perhaps down the road and again, if anyone has sources that might add to the factions, or add detail to how they fought please please send them to me, I will always give them a look.

[Heisenburrg]

Yeah, I understand your position. Personally I think, these units you added already solved the problem.
Just wanted to discuss this theme a little bit, to open Pandora´s box was not intended.

[dogukan]

Extremely beautiful stuff mate. Thanks a lot.

[Locus_Devium]

I just want to mention that somewhere in this forum they talked abou what-if units for several factions.
So would that mean we have polearm troops for every faction in late tiers due to the fact that tier 3 represent a fictional great-empire-status of their own faction with several new ressources and a wide knowledge about warfare in general?

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[kultegin]

Hi team. I have some info about Golden horde and some suggestions about troops.
Administrative system
Batu Khan had only 3 tumens under his disposition after creation of Golden Horde, which were given to his father Jochi by Chingiz khan. He stopped exterminating local kipchak tribes, but incorporated them to his newly formed state tatar-mongols). Batu khan divided his forces among his brothers unlike Chingiz khan, as he feared disloyalty among his noyans, since Golden Horde was in early stage of statehood and new elected khan in mongolia could be from rival Chingissid family. So there were 19 ulus and each ulus had 4 turko-mongol tribes with one Karachibek or noyan (commander) responsible for respective tribe. Each ulus was under nominal leadership of brothers of Batu khan. Each ulus had certain territory in Euroasian steppe with winter and summer pastures. Later on with incorporation of more local tribes, 4 more ulus were created.
Uzbeg khan's administrative reform.
This administrative system continued until Uzbeg Khan. Uzbeg khan made a new administrative reform and kicked other Jochid princes out of office and all of the tribes were directly subject to him, except for Shibanids and Ordoids. (Shiban was Batu khans brother who showed extraordinary feats during western campaign of mongols. He would join the battles himself, while othe mongol princes never did. Therefore, he was very respected among mongol troops. Biographer of Uzbeg khan Utemishhadji reported that Shibanid princes were left with their uluses. Orda was elder brother of Batu but let the Batu become khan, despite mongol tradition that allowed only eldest of the sons to become khan). Therefore, Uzbek khan left strong impression among European and egyptian chroniclers. Ibn Batuta recorded 17 generals at the presence of Uzbeg khan, who were responsible for one ulus.


Army compostion.
Each tribe depending on its size provided 10k or 1k troops in accordance with mongol warfare traditions. Some tribes were powerful and had "tarhan" status (which means hero and were exempted from taxes). Since mongols in Golden horde were few in numbers and had rival princes that could be elected as a supreme khan, they incorporated local turkic tribes and trained them in accordance with mongol warfare traditions. "Keshik" and "Mangudai" forces did include local turkic population. This resulted in original mongols loosing their identity and adopting to local turkic customs and language. By the time of Uzbek khan there was no distinction between mongol and turkics and all were equal subjects of the Khan and under his loyal generals.


It would not be correct to divide Golden Horde armu into separate and distinctive mongol and turkic troops. They were collectively known as Tatars to their neighbors and vassals.
Vassals did provide troops during the the wars of Golden Horde khans Berke, Uzbeg, Toktamysh. It would be great to include Russian cavalry and infantry into GH troop roaster and delete turkic archers or turkic cavaly. Plano Carpini reports in his annals that vassals were required to provide troops.

Edit. typos and grammar

[Dontfearme22]

Hi team. I have some info about Golden horde and some suggestions about troops.
Administrative system
Batu Khan had only 3 tumens under his disposition after creation of Golden Horde, which were given to his father Jochi by Chingiz khan. He stopped exterminating local kipchak tribes, but incorporated them to his newly formed state tatar-mongols). Batu khan divided his forces among his brothers unlike Chingiz khan, as he feared disloyalty among his noyans, since Golden Horde was in early stage of statehood and new elected khan in mongolia could be from rival Chingissid family. So there were 19 ulus and each ulus had 4 turko-mongol tribes with one Karachibek or noyan (commander) responsible for respective tribe. Each ulus was under nominal leadership of brothers of Batu khan. Each ulus had certain territory in Euroasian steppe with winter and summer pastures. Later on with incorporation of more local tribes, 4 more ulus were created.
Uzbeg khan's administrative reform.
This administrative system continued until Uzbeg Khan. Uzbeg khan made a new administrative reform and kicked other Jochid princes out of office and all of the tribes were directly subject to him, except for Shibanids and Ordoids. (Shiban was Batu khans brother who showed extraordinary feats during western campaign of mongols. He would join the battles himself, while othe mongol princes never did. Therefore, he was very respected among mongol troops. Biographer of Uzbeg khan Utemishhadji reported that Shibanid princes were left with their uluses. Orda was elder brother of Batu but let the Batu become khan, despite mongol tradition that allowed only eldest of the sons to become khan). Therefore, Uzbek khan left strong impression among European and egyptian chroniclers. Ibn Batuta recorded 17 generals at the presence of Uzbeg khan, who were responsible for one ulus.


Army compostion.
Each tribe depending on its size provided 10k or 1k troops in accordance with mongol warfare traditions. Some tribes were powerful and had "tarhan" status (which means hero and were exempted from taxes). Since mongols in Golden horde were few in numbers and had rival princes that could be elected as a supreme khan, they incorporated local turkic tribes and trained them in accordance with mongol warfare traditions. "Keshik" and "Mangudai" forces did include local turkic population. This resulted in original mongols loosing their identity and adopting to local turkic customs and language. By the time of Uzbek khan there was no distinction between mongol and turkics and all were equal subjects of the Khan and under his loyal generals.


It would not be correct to divide Golden Horde armu into separate and distinctive mongol and turkic troops. They were collectively known as Tatars to their neighbors and vassals.
Vassals did provide troops during the the wars of Golden Horde khans Berke, Uzbeg, Toktamysh. It would be great to include Russian cavalry and infantry into GH troop roaster and delete turkic archers or turkic cavaly. Plano Carpini reports in his annals that vassals were required to provide troops.

Edit. typos and grammar

I want to respond specifically on army composition because there isn't really anything to debate about the history part of your post.

The reason I divided the Golden Horde army into Mongol and Turkic troops, is that initially they were different both ethnically, linguistically and in terms of equipment. That did change, and the Golden Horde was so thoroughly Turkicized it became known as the Kipchaq Khanate to some. The reason even in tiers 2 and 3 I have Mongol cavalry units is mostly for name unity across tiers, visually they are entirely in line with period sources for their respective periods. Even if they were known collectively as Tatars to their neighbors and vassals, I don't want to use that exonym broadly because it is by its nature, a generalized stereotype of others imposed upon them, its not their word for themselves. I only use the word "Tatar" for units where I am specifically aiming for distinct groups like the slave raiders of the 1400s, and only tier 3. I don't use it broadly. A lot of these are subjective decisions though, I admit that.

I do have Russian cavalry and infantry in both tiers 2 and 3, but I won't delete the Turkic units because they were a integral part of the horde from its first subjugation of western Turkic tribes to its downfall. A better argument would be to simply name all steppe units past tier 2 Turkic something or another because that is likely the historical case but I think that would be unnecessary. Besides, the term Turkicized implies they adopted Turkic culture and language, but they were still at the root Mongol. Ozbeg was a an part of the Genghisid family after all, if far removed from his ancestor Batu Khan. The Ilkhanate Mongols were massively Persianized but they were still at the root Mongol, not of native Iranian origin.

[kultegin]

It sounds like you know very little about Golden Horde. I assume you know who Shiban is. So Batu khan gave Shiban oglan "el" (15K yurts) made of 4 tribes" qushchi, naiman, buyrak and qarluq. Tuqa timur received el from "qauvchin" (privileged part of troops) 4 tribes" ming, tarhan (kilingud), uyshun amd oyrat.

Now can you tell me out of those 8 tribes that took part in western campaign which are mongol or turk in origin?
here is a little tip for you: Rashiddin explains in detail origin of each tribe mentioned.

Now they subjugated bulgars, magyars, alans, bashkirds, as, qipchaq, suvar, udmurt and rus. Which of these tribes are slavic, ugric and turkic?

Do you see why i was asking you to delete turkic archers as a separate group? Batu's army was made of turkic and mongol tribes and they together marched west and obileterated everything and everyone that stood against them. Those turkics were trained like mongols. It is a historic fact.