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Thread: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

  1. #141
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Ashamed? I don't know. That depends on how much you care about your principles. It simply tells me that all the talk about the principles of modern age being the fuel of the Kurdic cause in Syria to be empty talk. Nothing more.




    You have any data on this? If you do, please share... By the way, this is not a dick measurement race. You're clearly approaching it as one. Me accepting that a lot of Kurds support Öcalan or not has no relevance to what we're talking about. What you're saying here is merely the echoes of deflection from having democratic and modern principles tested and failing in your position's case. Every single Kurd out there could love the guy to death. That wouldn't change a single thing I said.
    What are my principles? I am acting with pragmatism. For there to be a better middle east, kurds need to be free. I dont have any principles regarding this. If jihadis and turkish dogmatic nationalism are going to be broken, i welcome their nation state. I wont actively be part of it. But i dont see any problems with it. The fact that it triggers kurdophobics is enough for me.

    But i know how rojava works. You are the one who prefers krg, a despotic kurdish nation state against rojava...what am i to make of that? Lets not act like you have a humanitarian case here. You identify with turkish state s official ideology, and that is the only thing that gets hurt here. Nothing else. Dont talk to me of principles.



    As for pro pkk kurds being the biggest kurdish movement, no i have no data. And i wont insist. Fact is, pkk is either first or second biggest kurdish group(if we take into account 4 countries with kurds and europe, i am pretty sure pkk in total is the biggest, and even those who do not identify with pkk doesnt have huge issues with them) despite people like you trying to present it as a marginal terrorist mentality.
    Its the will of kurdish people is my argument.

    Terrorist activities of some ypg member would not change the fact that in rojava there is a civil society based on tevdem representing all locals equally and they arent terrorizing anybody. You are comparing that to isis. I d compare it to turkey and argue that it is a far better system.
    Turkey is a dictatorship by now and you are comparing krg with rojava then come and talk to me of principles...
    Last edited by Iskar; January 13, 2017 at 06:05 AM. Reason: off-topic removed
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  2. #142

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    What are my principles? I am acting with pragmatism. For there to be a better middle east, kurds need to be free. I dont have any principles regarding this. If jihadis and turkish dogmatic nationalism are going to be broken, i welcome their nation state. I wont actively be part of it. But i dont see any problems with it. The fact that it triggers kurdophobics is enough for me.

    But i know how rojava works. You are the one who prefers krg, a despotic kurdish nation state against rojava...what am i to make of that? Lets not act like you have a humanitarian case here. You identify with turkish state s official ideology, and that is the only thing that gets hurt here. Nothing else. Dont talk to me of principles.



    As for pro pkk kurds being the biggest kurdish movement, no i have no data. And i wont insist. Fact is, pkk is either first or second biggest kurdish group(if we take into account 4 countries with kurds and europe, i am pretty sure pkk in total is the biggest, and even those who do not identify with pkk doesnt have huge issues with them) despite people like you trying to present it as a marginal terrorist mentality.
    Its the will of kurdish people is my argument.

    Terrorist activities of some ypg member would not change the fact that in rojava there is a civil society based on tevdem representing all locals equally and they arent terrorizing anybody. You are comparing that to isis. I d compare it to turkey and argue that it is a far better system.
    Turkey is a dictatorship by now and you are comparing krg with rojava then come and talk to me of principles...
    The principle I see right now is that of a pissing contest. It's a quite juvenile approach to base a position on who gets hurt... Care to point out where I've even commented on KRG the slightest? Which brings me to my earlier point. It's a very juvenile approach to keep on assuming about what I believe and prefer as an integral part of your position. Pretty much everything you claim about what I argued is either a lie or misrepresented. It gets annoying after a while but since you keep on digging a deeper hole for yourself with it it helps me on the long run. The crux of the matter is that all of this rant of yours is a deflection tactic to avoid talking about the ties between PKK and YPG, how YPG has a lot of authoritarian tendencies in fighting criticism, etc. Using disingenuous tactics for a disingenuous purpose, for the third time, is quite juvenile. Just remember, it doesn't matter what you want, what you do and say in the path to attaining that is also important.
    Last edited by Iskar; January 13, 2017 at 06:06 AM. Reason: continuity
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  3. #143
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    The principle I see right now is that of a pissing contest. It's a quite juvenile approach to base a position on who gets hurt... Care to point out where I've even commented on KRG the slightest? Which brings me to my earlier point. It's a very juvenile approach to keep on assuming about what I believe and prefer as an integral part of your position. Pretty much everything you claim about what I argued is either a lie or misrepresented. It gets annoying after a while but since you keep on digging a deeper hole for yourself with it it helps me on the long run. The crux of the matter is that all of this rant of yours is a deflection tactic to avoid talking about the ties between PKK and YPG, how YPG has a lot of authoritarian tendencies in fighting criticism, etc. Using disingenuous tactics for a disingenuous purpose, for the third time, is quite juvenile. Just remember, it doesn't matter what you want, what you do and say in the path to attaining that is also important.
    Tell me then what do you want? How do you plan to solve middle east?
    What role do you give to kurds in this?

    I dont think saying pyd has authoritarian tendencies bother anyone.
    Syria, turkey, ksa, jordan, egypt, iran are literally ALL authoritarian countries some with serious dictatorships. Iraq too is an arguable democracy dur heavy corruption and nepotism.
    Why should kurdish movement, even if what you say about them is true, be held separately from this?

    What do you think should happen in rojava? What status will kurds get in the region for a better outcome?
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  4. #144
    Iskar's Avatar Insanity with Dignity
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    It might be beneficial to the discussion to stop making assumptions about other poster's hidden motivations or supposed underlying mindsets and instead concentrate on the arguments presented.

    Thank you.
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  5. #145

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Tell me then what do you want? How do you plan to solve middle east?
    What role do you give to kurds in this?

    I dont think saying pyd has authoritarian tendencies bother anyone.
    Syria, turkey, ksa, jordan, egypt, iran are literally ALL authoritarian countries some with serious dictatorships. Iraq too is an arguable democracy dur heavy corruption and nepotism.
    Why should kurdish movement, even if what you say about them is true, be held separately from this?

    What do you think should happen in rojava? What status will kurds get in the region for a better outcome?
    I'm not really gonna entertain your deflection... It's up to you to try to downplay a group's failure in living up to the very principles you claim them to be a champion of. That's how this discussion started. You didn't jump when SDF denounced ties to PKK because it was viewed as a positive thing, but you jumped in when I pointed how on the ground YPG and PKK ties are much more solid which would be viewed as a negative thing. This is quite interesting. It shows how you manipulated the narrative. Even though you practically argue that the SDF statement is false you used your comments elsewhere. Interesting indeed.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; January 13, 2017 at 06:22 AM.
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #146
    IrishBlood's Avatar GIVE THEM BLIZZARDS!
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Really?? No one cares that Israel just bombed a military airport near Damascus?

  7. #147
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    It isnt the first time israel bombed syria in this conflict afaik.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    I'm not really gonna entertain your deflection... It's up to you to try to downplay a group's failure in living up to the very principles you claim them to be a champion of. That's how this discussion started. You didn't jump when SDF denounced ties to PKK because it was viewed as a positive thing, but you jumped in when I pointed how on the ground YPG and PKK ties are much more solid which would be viewed as a negative thing. This is quite interesting. It shows how you manipulated the narrative. Even though you practically argue that the SDF statement is false you used your comments elsewhere. Interesting indeed.
    I do not deny the affiliation and to be frank i dont think people care. Everybody know ypg is affiliated to pkk, but even the us declines such linkings for pragmatic reasons.
    Pyd never denied that it is ideologically walking the same path pkk does.
    The whole awkwardness is due to where turkey stands and old agreements regarding pkk s status.
    Pragmatically speaking, i am sure both us and eu by now would like to have pkk out of their terrorist list to stop dealing with this .
    So they create this narrative that they arent affiliated.

    That being said, affilation means little. Pyd as an organisation isnt terrorizing anybody and their apparent authoritarianism is nothing next to other regimes around it. In the end it has managed to create stability and cooperation for the people living under it and is willing to negotiate peacefull solutions.

    Now what do you offer? You keep posting stuff the smear ypg, what is it that you want then? What are we to make of your opinions regarding this whole situation?
    Support the turkish or syrian criminal
    dictatorships? What should happen to kurds? What should the current leadership in rojava do?
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  8. #148

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    Really?? No one cares that Israel just bombed a military airport near Damascus?
    It's been awhile, but it fits the same pattern as several previous strikes:

    The Lebanese al-Meyadeen news outlet reported that the strike targeted a weapons depot at the strategic base, wounding four soldiers...

    The IDF, which doesn’t comment on foreign reports of military operations, refused to confirm the reports...

    Officials in Jerusalem have said they take action to stop the transfer of advanced weapons to terror groups; over a dozen strikes inside Syria have been attributed to Israel.
    Syria blames Israel, threatens ‘repercussions’ over airbase strike
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  9. #149

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    I do not deny the affiliation and to be frank i dont think people care. Everybody know ypg is affiliated to pkk, but even the us declines such linkings for pragmatic reasons.
    Pyd never denied that it is ideologically walking the same path pkk does.
    The whole awkwardness is due to where turkey stands and old agreements regarding pkk s status.
    Pragmatically speaking, i am sure both us and eu by now would like to have pkk out of their terrorist list to stop dealing with this .
    So they create this narrative that they arent affiliated.

    That being said, affilation means little. Pyd as an organisation isnt terrorizing anybody and their apparent authoritarianism is nothing next to other regimes around it. In the end it has managed to create stability and cooperation for the people living under it and is willing to negotiate peacefull solutions.

    Now what do you offer? You keep posting stuff the smear ypg, what is it that you want then? What are we to make of your opinions regarding this whole situation?
    Support the turkish or syrian criminal
    dictatorships? What should happen to kurds? What should the current leadership in rojava do?
    Nice of you to imply that PKK, a group that continues detonating bombs in city centers, should be taken out of terror group lists. If its ok for YPG to help PKK for a purpose you like why is it not ok for Turkey to help groups like al-Nusra for a purpose others like? All people want stability, they just want it in expense of people that they don't like. Your position, YPG's position is no different from AKP's position. All sides ignore or outright downplay the negative side of the tools they use.

    On one side we have an authoritarian and unreliable Turkey with a past of supporting the wrong side in this conflict, which includes both YPG and ISIL, in order to oppose Assad. On the other side, we have deceptive YPG that tries to pass as Switzerland level democracy while its fighters are interchangeable for PKK fighters, indoctrinating even the Arab fighters with PKK ideals and not even allowing people to raise a KRG flag in a protest.

    I don't have to offer you anything. I can offer you one thing though. You can stop treating YPG as an angel while treating Turkey as a devil. Gets boring after a while.

    I'm curious about one thing though. If PYD is such a beacon of stability why haven't millions of Syrians went back to the lands they control?
    The Armenian Issue

  10. #150
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    I hear Israel struck the airport near Damascus a second. So much for retaliation.
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    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  11. #151

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    I would have thought the Russians setting up their air defence system in Syria would have automatically shot those down.

    Unless the Israelis are testing out the F-35s early.
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  12. #152
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    I think the Russians and Israelis have their own agreement regarding strikes in Syria.
    Best/Worst quotes of TWC

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    While you are at it, allow Germany to rearm, it's not like they committed the worst atrocity in modern history, so having a strong army can't lead to anything pitiful.

  13. #153
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    Nice of you to imply that PKK, a group that continues detonating bombs in city centers, should be taken out of terror group lists. If its ok for YPG to help PKK for a purpose you like why is it not ok for Turkey to help groups like al-Nusra for a purpose others like? All people want stability, they just want it in expense of people that they don't like. Your position, YPG's position is no different from AKP's position. All sides ignore or outright downplay the negative side of the tools they use.

    On one side we have an authoritarian and unreliable Turkey with a past of supporting the wrong side in this conflict, which includes both YPG and ISIL, in order to oppose Assad. On the other side, we have deceptive YPG that tries to pass as Switzerland level democracy while its fighters are interchangeable for PKK fighters, indoctrinating even the Arab fighters with PKK ideals and not even allowing people to raise a KRG flag in a protest.

    I don't have to offer you anything. I can offer you one thing though. You can stop treating YPG as an angel while treating Turkey as a devil. Gets boring after a while.

    I'm curious about one thing though. If PYD is such a beacon of stability why haven't millions of Syrians went back to the lands they control?

    Are you going to keep repeating things that solves nothing? Bombs explode. Terror attacks are made. This is war, this is political unrest, it is rebellion, it is an assymmetric conflict. It isnt the first time the world is facing such an environment. It isnt the first time parties involved in the conflict use violance and terror, whether they are states or non-state groups. Stop thinking of this Turkish-Kurdish conflict as a unique scenario in history.
    I am not trying to justify acts of terror that have occured, but we are way beyond past the typical Turkish positon of hiding behind the "oh but terror" to ignore the kurdish reality like you are doing right now. Terror is a product of a problem. This includes AQ and ISIS, or IRA and ETA, or FARC or the whole organized crime in latin americas....
    Not all Kurds do terror acts. Not all the people who sympathize with Kurdish movement are terrorists. Vast majority of them are civillians who want to do politics and seek their rights, including all those millions who sympathize with PKK. The reason there is war is the reality of the middle east you keep ignoring. The objective reality is that there are Kurds, they have an unrest, their problems needs to be solved and they exist in an environment of war, repression and terror. They are involved in various ways in this reality. You cannot keep saying "oh terror" and just bury this reality.
    Sadly, it used to work. It does not work anymore. Because the monster this reality created has turned Turkey openly authoritarian. And when TUrkey is openly authoritarian, PKK violance in comparison becomes normal to observers. Violent opposition is a reality of authoritarian regimes.

    Brainwashing Arab fighters? Everybody brainwashes people into their ideology...there is no neutral position ANYWHERE in the world. The Turkish education system is brainwashing too..anything that teaches you a normative view of the world brainwashes you.
    The question here is, which brainwashing you prefer if you are able to pick one with your own opinion....I know which one I prefer. The previous ones doesn't seem to work anyways.

    There are two issues here we could delve into. Your prejudices and limited knowledge regarding Rojava and the conclusions you make for it.
    And what you want for Kurds to happen....

    Millions of people not returning to PYD lands is . What millions? The population of the region is 3-4 million tops.
    There were millions of refugees in Rojava before. Many who escaped the Turkish FSA, the Assad regime or ISIS have fled to lands of Rojava. I dont know where you are getting your news. Many are constantly returning to Rojava too. There is very little unrest in Rojava, and even those dissidents are in a way better position than dissidents in Turkey lol.

    Once again I ask, why should we ditch PYD, the Rojava Kurds and their project? IF we are to do so, what do you think should replace it?What should happen to Kurds of Syria? I am asking here, genuinely...what do you offer for a solution? What do you think is the best way to end this whole middle eastern conflict?
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  14. #154

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Israel has clearly pissed on the wrong tree here.
    Russia could just "lose" some weapon caches, which would magically end up in Hezbollah's hands. Or some advanced weapons blueprints, that end up in a desk of Iran's minister of defense.
    Also I doubt that Russia would back Israel in UN any time soon.
    Doesn't really make much sense for Israel to attack Syria either. Stable government under Assad is a far better alternative, then jihadist caliphate under Nusra/FSA or ISIS, which would eventually set their sights on Israel. Gulf governments also clearly stated that they want to destroy Israel, and they are the ones backing and controlling Syrian jihadist "opposition".
    Perhaps some rogue elements in Israeli military?

  15. #155
    IrishBlood's Avatar GIVE THEM BLIZZARDS!
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    I would have thought the Russians setting up their air defence system in Syria would have automatically shot those down.

    Unless the Israelis are testing out the F-35s early.
    It seems that they were surface to surface missile strikes launched from Israeli territory, rather than an air strike with Israeli aircraft entering Syrian airspace. Perhaps this was done to specifically avoid the Russian air defenses.

  16. #156

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Israel has clearly pissed on the wrong tree here.
    Nah, there won't be any problem. Israel has done the same several times before and (to my knowledge anyway) Russia hasn't even commented on it. Most likely whatever Iran was sending to Hezbollah, they'll have to buy replacements from Russia if they want to try again. Plus...

    Putin's Syria intervention further complicates the situation for Israel. Netanyahu met with Putin in Moscow on September 21, 2015. The meeting appeared to alleviate some Israeli concerns about Russia's Syria intervention. After the meeting Netanyahu said, "In Syria, I've defined my goals. They're to protect the security of my people and my country. Russia has different goals. But they shouldn't clash."
    The Maturing of Israeli-Russian Relations

    Wrapping up a two-day visit to Russia, President Reuven Rivlin on Thursday met with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev for talks aimed at strengthening bilateral trade and economic relations between the two countries.

    In light of US and EU sanctions levied on Russia over its military intervention in Ukraine last year, Medvedev said, Moscow was “open” to increasing its imports from Israel.

    “I see in the near future a real opportunity to increase trade. Recently, we have encountered export restrictions to Europe, Turkey has left our market and we are open to more exports from Israel,” he said at a joint press conference, according to a statement from Rivlin’s office.

    Both leaders came out in support of ongoing bilateral talks seeking to establish an Israel-Russia free trade agreement, the statement said.

    Medvedev called for increased cooperation with Israel in the fields of agriculture, hi-tech, space exploration, energy, and medical technology.
    Moscow wants more trade with Israel, Russian PM tells Rivlin

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Doesn't really make much sense for Israel to attack Syria either. Stable government under Assad is a far better alternative, then jihadist caliphate under Nusra/FSA or ISIS, which would eventually set their sights on Israel.
    The Israelis have said the same since the beginning...

    Intelligence sources spoke to the London-based newspaper The Times, and said that an intact, but weakened, Assad regime would be preferable for Israel and the entire region.
    “Better the devil we know than the demons we can only imagine if Syria falls into chaos and the extremists from across the Arab world gain a foothold there," a senior Israeli intelligence officer in the north of the country said.
    Israel prefers Assad: Better devil we know than demons we imagine
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  17. #157
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Also I doubt that Russia would back Israel in UN any time soon.
    Neither does the current US administration, so meh.
    And as if had Israel not done this, Russia would have supported it in the UN.

  18. #158

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Israel can do what they want. As long as they don't bomb the Russian base (but they even could bomb a Russian adviser if they want).

    Meanwhile the coalition bunker bombed ISIS 'only' supply road to northern Syria.


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  19. #159

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Are you going to keep repeating things that solves nothing? Bombs explode. Terror attacks are made. This is war, this is political unrest, it is rebellion, it is an assymmetric conflict. It isnt the first time the world is facing such an environment. It isnt the first time parties involved in the conflict use violance and terror, whether they are states or non-state groups. Stop thinking of this Turkish-Kurdish conflict as a unique scenario in history.
    I am not trying to justify acts of terror that have occured, but we are way beyond past the typical Turkish positon of hiding behind the "oh but terror" to ignore the kurdish reality like you are doing right now. Terror is a product of a problem. This includes AQ and ISIS, or IRA and ETA, or FARC or the whole organized crime in latin americas....
    Not all Kurds do terror acts. Not all the people who sympathize with Kurdish movement are terrorists. Vast majority of them are civillians who want to do politics and seek their rights, including all those millions who sympathize with PKK. The reason there is war is the reality of the middle east you keep ignoring. The objective reality is that there are Kurds, they have an unrest, their problems needs to be solved and they exist in an environment of war, repression and terror. They are involved in various ways in this reality. You cannot keep saying "oh terror" and just bury this reality.
    Sadly, it used to work. It does not work anymore. Because the monster this reality created has turned Turkey openly authoritarian. And when TUrkey is openly authoritarian, PKK violance in comparison becomes normal to observers. Violent opposition is a reality of authoritarian regimes.

    Brainwashing Arab fighters? Everybody brainwashes people into their ideology...there is no neutral position ANYWHERE in the world. The Turkish education system is brainwashing too..anything that teaches you a normative view of the world brainwashes you.
    The question here is, which brainwashing you prefer if you are able to pick one with your own opinion....I know which one I prefer. The previous ones doesn't seem to work anyways.

    There are two issues here we could delve into. Your prejudices and limited knowledge regarding Rojava and the conclusions you make for it.
    And what you want for Kurds to happen....

    Millions of people not returning to PYD lands is . What millions? The population of the region is 3-4 million tops.
    There were millions of refugees in Rojava before. Many who escaped the Turkish FSA, the Assad regime or ISIS have fled to lands of Rojava. I dont know where you are getting your news. Many are constantly returning to Rojava too. There is very little unrest in Rojava, and even those dissidents are in a way better position than dissidents in Turkey lol.

    Once again I ask, why should we ditch PYD, the Rojava Kurds and their project? IF we are to do so, what do you think should replace it?What should happen to Kurds of Syria? I am asking here, genuinely...what do you offer for a solution? What do you think is the best way to end this whole middle eastern conflict?
    Sigh... When a bomb exploded in Suruç we didn't really see these arguments. It was terror, and no matter what it should have been condemned, with anyone that has any connection whatsoever to the perpetrators to be punished. However, when a bomb explodes outside a stadium in İstanbul, or 3 guys tries to storm a courthouse, and direct ties are pointed out we're supposed to accept it as life and go with it.

    I'm not ignoring anything, let alone the Kurdic reality of Turkey, or the reality of the Middle East. I'm not saying "oh terror" and trying to bury that reality either. I didn't argue that all Kurds are terrorists either. You're not gonna accomplish anything other than being extremely ironic if you keep on basing your position on making stuff up about what I argue.

    You represent cantons in Syria as Swiss level democracies, beacons of direct representation. The reality is much different on the ground. Yet, your reaction is "so what? others do it too" which is quite hypocritical. Clearly, I'm not the one who ignores the reality of the matter.

    It would be rather strange for Turkey to have millions of Syrian refugees if people fled from Turkish FSA or if many of them fled to Rojava. The lands overtaken by the Turkish FSA is limited and still unstable to a degree but there were still reports of Syrians going back in from Turkey. Despite YPG controlled lands are vast and have been stable for a long time we didn't see the same kind of reports of people going back in in mass. I'm not sure if dissidents in YPG controlled lands are better than those in Turkey. Last time I checked, I watched how a group of people who merely held Iraqi Kurdistan flag was met with water cannon the same way many people in Turkey face when they protest. Feel free to laugh to that. What you argue here is nothing more than an exercise of partisanship.
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Once again I ask, why should we ditch PYD, the Rojava Kurds and their project? IF we are to do so, what do you think should replace it?What should happen to Kurds of Syria? I am asking here, genuinely...what do you offer for a solution? What do you think is the best way to end this whole middle eastern conflict?
    Well there is the option of citizenship based on shared interests/ history and the rule of law. But then again, it's the ME we are talking about.

    Realistically, the best option for the Kurds is to imitate the KRG, whereby gaining de-facto independence within a De Jure federal system designed to be obstructive or guarantee them "veto power" when it comes to sovereignty and federal budget decisions. I, however, do not believe that a hostile government in Damascus, Ankara and a hostile KRG as well will allow that to happen. But you never know. For sure conventional wisdom was smashed to pieces last year (from football to politics) and there is no reason to not expect this trend to continue especially when Russia has been historically pro-Kurdish.

    On a more positive note though, I've heard that the PKK has seized major areas and routes in NW Iraq (the Iraqi-Syrian corridor). Not sure how true these allegations are, but if they are true then that's one supply relief the PYD should expect in case they declare autonomy.

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