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Thread: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

  1. #3581
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sigh... Conflation of different issues born from ignorant arguments is nothing but that. What was said before already counters this. So do continue.
    No it didn't. Your claim that the weapons that the HTS have gotten hold of come from defecting FSA troops is outright . FSA soldiers haven't defected to the HTS for years and it doesn't explain how HTS has their hands on these weapons like the M113 HTS was pictured with. That M113 looks brand new. Not an APC that has seen years of combat and simply switched hands.

    Rest of your post is excuses that doesn't change at a that Turkey is working with and supporting HTS.

  2. #3582
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Setekh, I wonder if you think the same way about the Kurds that Turkey violently took over using its jihadi thugs and replaced? You suddenly seem to care a lot about the rights of the people when it comes to Turkish backing of jihadis.
    You talk about people choosing HTS over Assad's brutality, and yet when it is talk about the Syrian-Kurdish administration, you have a completely different tone.


    I think the most important result of this war for Turkey was its presentation of the sheer hypocrisy of the Turkish nationalism to the whole world. Turkish nationalism became a global meme thanks to this war.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dzamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  3. #3583
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    A little Ottoman expansion in the region to check Russian and Iranian ambitions may be the best worst case scenario in the unmitigated disaster that is Syria. The US has abandoned the Kurds and any credibility she ever had in the region, and will continue circling the drain for the foreseeable future. With no player to root for, Turkey may be the only option by which to root against Putin and the Ayatollah at this point. I doubt it will work out, but the Ottomans had a pretty solid managerial record there for centuries compared to the modern situation, and Turkey has the strongest secular democratic tradition native to the region.

  4. #3584

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    No it didn't. Your claim that the weapons that the HTS have gotten hold of come from defecting FSA troops is outright . FSA soldiers haven't defected to the HTS for years and it doesn't explain how HTS has their hands on these weapons like the M113 HTS was pictured with. That M113 looks brand new. Not an APC that has seen years of combat and simply switched hands.
    Rest of your post is excuses that doesn't change at a that Turkey is working with and supporting HTS.
    I love how we have to deal with people claiming that no FSA troops deserted to HTS to point at supposed Turkish support for HTS as well as to deal with people claiming that FSA keeps losing people to HTS to point at ineffectiveness of FSA. What's also interesting is that you'd jump on that idea that the M113 looks new when Turkey always provided used arms to rebel groups in Syria. Overall, I'm glad to see the claim that Turkish soldiers fought side by side with HTS fighters is dropped.


    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Setekh, I wonder if you think the same way about the Kurds that Turkey violently took over using its jihadi thugs and replaced? You suddenly seem to care a lot about the rights of the people when it comes to Turkish backing of jihadis.
    You talk about people choosing HTS over Assad's brutality, and yet when it is talk about the Syrian-Kurdish administration, you have a completely different tone.
    I think the most important result of this war for Turkey was its presentation of the sheer hypocrisy of the Turkish nationalism to the whole world. Turkish nationalism became a global meme thanks to this war.
    When you distort reality like that, sure, I understand why you'd come to such conclusions.
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  5. #3585
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I love how we have to deal with people claiming that no FSA troops deserted to HTS to point at supposed Turkish support for HTS as well as to deal with people claiming that FSA keeps losing people to HTS to point at ineffectiveness of FSA.
    You can't even debate honestly. I never once claimed FSA never defected to the HTS. I pointed out that FSA groups defecting to the HTS haven't happened for a long time. So your claim they simply got these weapons from FSA groups is again at best.


    What's also interesting is that you'd jump on that idea that the M113 looks new when Turkey always provided used arms to rebel groups in Syria. Overall, I'm glad to see the claim that Turkish soldiers fought side by side with HTS fighters is dropped.
    My claim is dropped? Your own country admitted to support rebel advances. That is fighting with the HTS. Nice try though.

    Oh and used small arms? The M113 is a heavy vehicle, not a small arm.


    https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/arti...n-idlib-photo/

    The M113 pictured in my source looks new. Definitely doesn't look like an APC thats seen years of combat or switched habds from various groups.

  6. #3586

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    You can't even debate honestly. I never once claimed FSA never defected to the HTS. I pointed out that FSA groups defecting to the HTS haven't happened for a long time. So your claim they simply got these weapons from FSA groups is again at best.
    My claim is dropped? Your own country admitted to support rebel advances. That is fighting with the HTS. Nice try though.
    Oh and used small arms? The M113 is a heavy vehicle, not a small arm.
    https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/arti...n-idlib-photo/
    The M113 pictured in my source looks new. Definitely doesn't look like an APC thats seen years of combat or switched habds from various groups.
    I love such self-righteous posts that fail so miserably. Sigh... My comments on FSA losing fighters to HTS was not about some distant past. They were about quite recent times. Conflating rebel support with supporting HTS or fighting side by side with them doesn't really sit well. I guess given USA's interest in backing up Turkey on this we'll see quite a turn soon. Trying to use a single case of one or two M113s at the hands of HTS as a proof of Turkey "actively" arming them doesn't really sit well either. You make it too obvious how you're grasping at straws as you're trying to twist my words going as far as to making additions. I didn't say "small arms", did I? I simply said "used arms" in connection to the M113s. Turkey produces Kirpi for armored personnel carrier type vehicles, not M113s. You tried to pass vehicles produced back in the 60s as brand new. Furthermore, the M113 in your picture is missing a number of key components; the top gun, missile repellents or whatever their names are, etc. What you see there is a stripped armored personnel carrier. Keep it up though...
    The Armenian Issue
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  7. #3587

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdlmecid I View Post
    In the previous page, I posted an image of a recently delivered armoured vehicle decorated with a HTS flag. Others have been offered to the terrorists' closest affiliates, like Jaysh al-Ahrar, as the notoriously anti-government journalist Julian Rpcke explains.
    That guy is a joke nothing else he was on so many claims wrong, just more an twitter user who aims more followers then anything else, a Puppet of the so-called "New Media" !

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    That M113 looks brand new. Not an APC that has seen years of combat and simply switched hands.
    What kind of BS is this? brand new M113? its not even produced anymore and most of the M113 which are in the Turkish Inventory are going to be scrapped or just mostly used by some conscripts somewhere in the Western Region in Turkey which are even there on a very badly condition. Besides you need really someone who knows how an M113 work to drive with it, this especially for the ones in the Inventory of the Turkish Army.

    Furthermore its side Armour can still be penetrated by a Standard AK-47 Ammunition, i guess even a ISIS Member would prefer there an Toyota Hilux then these junk.

    I assume anything that you are seeing which is written in Arabic letters are related to ISIS or whatever you thinking in your dreams there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post

    https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/arti...n-idlib-photo/

    The M113 pictured in my source looks new. Definitely doesn't look like an APC thats seen years of combat or switched habds from various groups.
    Btw that Source is not available anymore since it was clear it was Picture from a few Years ago, but nothing can stops the User "Vanoi" to increasing his post amount on his Profile.
    Last edited by Nebaki; February 20, 2020 at 03:26 PM.

  8. #3588
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post

    When you distort reality like that, sure, I understand why you'd come to such conclusions.
    What does this even mean? Or are you avoiding answering?
    How come you become such a human rights protector all of a sudden when it comes to turkey-islamist terrorists link but when its Kurds its a different story?
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dzamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  9. #3589

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    What does this even mean? Or are you avoiding answering?
    How come you become such a human rights protector all of a sudden when it comes to turkey-islamist terrorists link but when its Kurds its a different story?
    The Story about those "Kurds" does not started within the Syrian Civial War Crisis, how it comes you always present it from a Pov which more starts with the Uprise of ISIS.

  10. #3590
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I love such self-righteous posts that fail so miserably. Sigh... My comments on FSA losing fighters to HTS was not about some distant past. They were about quite recent times.
    Like when? Please do cite these "recent" times. I'm more than willing to bet you can't even find a defection within the last 6 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Conflating rebel support with supporting HTS or fighting side by side with them doesn't really sit well.
    Conflating? HTS are a rebel group and the de facto controller of Idlib and the largest rebel group in Idlib. My own source indicated they were in the area of the offensive being backed by Turkey. Its sits well just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I guess given USA's interest in backing up Turkey on this we'll see quite a turn soon.
    Highly doubt that. Whats ironic is that Turkey is asking for Patriot batteries and latest word is that the US isn't sure it wants to send Turkey any at all. What happened to those S-400s?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Trying to use a single case of one or two M113s at the hands of HTS as a proof of Turkey "actively" arming them doesn't really sit well either.
    Did you not just mention a post ago how Turkey provides arms to the rebels? HTS are a rebel group. I don't need to post a picture of every single vehicle they own. Even having one in their arsenal raises about how they got it. Considering your argument that it was a defection isn't supported by any kind of evidence or reason it doesn't leave many answers left.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You make it too obvious how you're grasping at straws as you're trying to twist my words going as far as to making additions. I didn't say "small arms", did I? I simply said "used arms" in connection to the M113s. Turkey produces Kirpi for armored personnel carrier type vehicles, not M113s.
    Doesn't matter what Turkey produces. They have over 2800 M113s in active service which means they are being repaired and maintained in battle-ready condition. Why would you give the rebels your nice new APCs when you can just give them the M113s that you are replacing with your brand new Kirpi armored vehicles?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You tried to pass vehicles produced back in the 60s as brand new.
    Brand new referred to their condition. You claimed these M113s were APCs given to FSA groups who later on in the war defected to the HTS. And yet from the picture, that APC doesn't look like its been through months or years of war. No scratches, dings, impacts from bullets, nothing. Countries with actual professional armies like Turkey do upkeep and maintain their armored vehicles and aircraft. They aren't going to look old. Turkey's own F-16s were acquired in the 1980s. And yet i bet if you look at a Turkish F-16, your not going to be able to tell its almost 40 years old.

    This has to be one of the worse arguments i have ever seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Furthermore, the M113 in your picture is missing a number of key components; the top gun, missile repellents or whatever their names are, etc. What you see there is a stripped armored personnel carrier. Keep it up though...
    You do realize the original M113s didn't have smoke repellents? The M113A2 added the smoke grenades. Not all of the M113s in Turkey's arsenal are M113A2 variants.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M113_a...sonnel_carrier

    Its a mix of M113A1s and M113A2s. Menaing that Turkey could have simply given HTS the M113A1 variant.

    Not only that, the top gun you mentioned is a mount. The standard M113 doesn't come armed as my source mentions. Not having a machine gun on it is how it comes. You have to add the gun yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    What kind of BS is this? brand new M113? its not even produced anymore and most of the M113 which are in the Turkish Inventory are going to be scrapped or just mostly used by some conscripts somewhere in the Western Region in Turkey which are even there on a very badly condition.
    According to wikipedia they are in active service. Highly doubt that Turkey doesn't maintain and upkeep its armored vehicles. The condition of the M113 in the photo looks new. Not an APC that has seen combat in Syria for months or years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Besides you need really someone who knows how an M113 work to drive with it, this especially for the ones in the Inventory of the Turkish Army.
    M113s aren't fighter jets. they use a diesel engine and automatic transmission. They are not impossible to drive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Furthermore its side Armour can still be penetrated by a Standard AK-47 Ammunition, i guess even a ISIS Member would prefer there an Toyota Hilux then these junk.
    Actually later variants added some armor which are in Turkish possession.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Btw that Source is not available anymore since it was clear it was Picture from a few Years ago, but nothing can stops the User "Vanoi" to increasing his post amount on his Profile.
    Not available? I just clicked on it and it certainly is available. Where's your proof the picture is from years ago?
    Last edited by Vanoi; February 21, 2020 at 01:01 AM.

  11. #3591

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post

    According to wikipedia they are in active service.
    Do i need furthermore taking you serious? Did you even look at that Source from Wikipedia? Its like from a DIY-Website.

  12. #3592
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Do i need furthermore taking you serious? Did you even look at that Source from Wikipedia? Its like from a DIY-Website.
    Its cited and wikipedia has been accepted on this forums for years. Are you claiming Wikipedia is lying about the number of M113s in Turkish service?

    Oh and i am still waiting for the proof that picture i posted is several years old like you claimed.

  13. #3593
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    The Story about those "Kurds" does not started within the Syrian Civial War Crisis, how it comes you always present it from a Pov which more starts with the Uprise of ISIS.
    Does it change the reality about the Kurdish issue in Syria and their right to rule themselves democratically?
    If this guy can back jihadis known for their global violance just to back up Turkey's actions blindly, he should also not be hypocritical about the same wars' other actors.

    Otherwise, it is pointless to talk to a guy who constantly shifts goalposts.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dzamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  14. #3594
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    https://syria.liveuamap.com/en/2020/...n-any-military

    According to the livemap the Syrians are threatening to shoot down any aircraft that enter Syria. The source is the state-run SANA's twitter account so i'm not sure how truthful this is. Don't think the Syrians would dare to shoot down a foreign aircraft in Syria. Way too likely they'd shoot back.

  15. #3595

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    A little Ottoman expansion in the region to check Russian and Iranian ambitions may be the best worst case scenario in the unmitigated disaster that is Syria. The US has abandoned the Kurds and any credibility she ever had in the region, and will continue circling the drain for the foreseeable future. With no player to root for, Turkey may be the only option by which to root against Putin and the Ayatollah at this point. I doubt it will work out, but the Ottomans had a pretty solid managerial record there for centuries compared to the modern situation, and Turkey has the strongest secular democratic tradition native to the region.
    Turkey is actually supporting theocratic terrorist groups and Turkey itself is becoming increasingly islamist under Erdogan's regime. At least Iran and Russia are interested in stabilizing the region. Seems like Russia and Iran taking over is, in fact, the best worst case scenario. At least it help contain influence of US and Turkey.

  16. #3596

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Anyone who criticizes Turkey's current position in Idlib should follow that criticism with an alternative on how to handle avoiding to turn Idlib into a ghost town.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    What does this even mean? Or are you avoiding answering?
    How come you become such a human rights protector all of a sudden when it comes to turkey-islamist terrorists link but when its Kurds its a different story?
    I'm not sure what human rights has to do with pointing out that Turkey is trying to avoid a new refugee crisis or that Assad's brutality is causing that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Do i need furthermore taking you serious? Did you even look at that Source from Wikipedia? Its like from a DIY-Website.
    He's trying to muddy every little detail to create a defensible position. Any link that even remotely appears to be helping him is game. As a general rule, its good to ignore people when they start to dissect every sentence while the topic doesn't change with each quote.


    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Does it change the reality about the Kurdish issue in Syria and their right to rule themselves democratically?
    If this guy can back jihadis known for their global violance just to back up Turkey's actions blindly, he should also not be hypocritical about the same wars' other actors.

    Otherwise, it is pointless to talk to a guy who constantly shifts goalposts.
    Why are you blatantly lying there? No one here backed jihadists.
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  17. #3597

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Its cited and wikipedia has been accepted on this forums for years. Are you claiming Wikipedia is lying about the number of M113s in Turkish service?
    According to Wikipedia Turkey also already using F-35 and Eurofighters, beside that its the second only user of the F-22 after the USA. Are you claiming Wikipedia is lying about the number of F-22s in Turkish service?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Oh and i am still waiting for the proof that picture i posted is several years old like you claimed.
    You Source already deleted that picture since it was Hoax, but perhaps you can enlight us and post it again?



    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Does it change the reality about the Kurdish issue in Syria and their right to rule themselves democratically?
    Democratically? By whom? By their wannabe General who is responsible for some serious Bomb Attacks in Turkey which even have an Turkish Citizenship? But for you even those Left-Extremism-Terrorists in Turkey are Flower Donating Peace Democrats.

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    If this guy can back jihadis known for their global violance just to back up Turkey's actions blindly, he should also not be hypocritical about the same wars' other actors.

    Otherwise, it is pointless to talk to a guy who constantly shifts goalposts.
    This you response in this case? Nothing else more? First of all no one here is backing jihadis, second of all no one here is blind enough like you backing openly here some well known Terrorist Organisation of the Left-Wing. Im not even meaning something related to the Kurds and you know that.

    You should stop bringing always this Pointless Value of your known Ideology.
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; February 27, 2020 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Personal ref. removed

  18. #3598
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    According to Wikipedia Turkey also already using F-35 and Eurofighters, beside that its the second only user of the F-22 after the USA. Are you claiming Wikipedia is lying about the number of F-22s in Turkish service?
    So now you want to lie?

    You claim Wikipedia claims that Turkey uses the Eurofighter.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

    Wow. On the list of known operators of the Eurofighter, Turkey is not listed. So you lied about that claim. Nice. Turkey isn't even listed in the part about possible sales of the Eurofighter to other countries. You are very bad at this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockhe...5_Lightning_II

    According to this link it mentions Turkey only having the possession of four F-35A aircraft with Turkey ordering more, but the US has refused to sell them.

    If your point was that Wikipedia is inaccurate i just proved your own point wrong.

    Oh and for my final point :https://www.militaryfactory.com/armo...asp?armor_id=6

    Thats a non-Wikipedia source pointing out once again that Turkey does use the M113.

    https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/US/M113_APC.php

    There's another one. It even mentions that Turkey operates over 3000 of them, just like my Wikipedia source says.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    You Source already deleted that picture since it was Hoax, but perhaps you can enlight us and post it again?
    https://mobile.almasdarnews.com/arti...n-idlib-photo/

    My source still has the picture posted right in its article and has not taken it down.
    In fact here's the image:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    He's trying to muddy every little detail to create a defensible position. Any link that even remotely appears to be helping him is game. As a general rule, its good to ignore people when they start to dissect every sentence while the topic doesn't change with each quote.
    Waiting for that reply. Or do you at least admit your point was wrong and i was right?
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; February 27, 2020 at 02:17 AM. Reason: Personal ref. removed - For continuity

  19. #3599

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Are we really going to be questioning what military hardware Turkey is using or not?

  20. #3600

    Default Re: ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Are we really going to be questioning what military hardware Turkey is using or not?
    They're arguing about whether or not Turkey is arming Hayat Tahrir al-Sham.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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