ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

[nhytgbvfeco2]

They still attacked military facilities of Syria, damaging Syria's war effort against ISIS. Israel is responsible for ISIS actions this way.

By the same logic the SAA, Russia, Iran and Hezbollah helped ISIS by attacking the FSA, thus damaging the war effort against ISIS, and are responsible for ISIS actions.

[PointOfViewGun]

Considering HTS is the de-facto ruler of Idlib and compromises most of the rebels in Idlib, i say that Turkey is definitely working with them.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKBN2050QZ
Thats Turkey admitting to supporting the rebels in attacking the M5 highway. And guess which group shot down that Syrian helicopter?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...dlib-whpvxfl8d
Pure coincidence HTS just happens to be in the same area where turkey is supporting a rebel advance. Right?

So, you downgraded your defense of "they fight side by side" to "they work together". OK. I was looking for examples of them fighting side by side. You seem to have ignored what I said as well. Turkish attacks around Idlib are not related to helping out HTS but to hurt the Syrian advance to postpone an other refugee crisis. When Assad takes over lands the public does not run towards Assad but towards Turkey. The displacement caused by the fighting in Idlib is reported as the largest displacement that happened throughout this conflict.

[dogukan]

Turkey is actively supporting and even fighting side by side together with jihadis and designated terrorists against a sovereign nation setekh....if thats what you are asking.

Whether they are "directly" involved with HTS or not at this point is a ridiculous question.
The rebels ARE the HTS and Turkey is arming them and bombing SAA positions for them.

This will hopefully be a wake up call to Russia and Syria so that they make better decisions with regards to YPG's balancing politics between USA-Russia.

Turkey is a force of Islamism in the middle east, and no amount of nationalist brainwashing at home(for the secular audiance) or that lie that "we are there to stop refugees" can hide this obvious fact.

[Nebaki]

Turkey is actively supporting and even fighting side by side together with jihadis and designated terrorists against a sovereign nation setekh....if thats what you are asking.

Whether they are "directly" involved with HTS or not at this point is a ridiculous question.
The rebels ARE the HTS and Turkey is arming them and bombing SAA positions for them.

This will hopefully be a wake up call to Russia and Syria so that they make better decisions with regards to YPG's balancing politics between USA-Russia.

Turkey is a force of Islamism in the middle east, and no amount of nationalist brainwashing at home(for the secular audiance) or that lie that "we are there to stop refugees" can hide this obvious fact.

There not even ca. 30.000 Thousands Militants in Idlib but more then 3 Millions Civilians - those Militants not even make 1% of the Population in Idlib. How can you blame Turkey in this case? even that HTS obviously seeing that Assad is doing bs that even started from beginning - Starting a Civil War between his Supporters and Opposition to get his own Position better, do you really think that someone can win a election with 90-95%? He will definitely get rid this of most these Civilians and it was Assad who let those Jihadis of ISIS ones captured again free to reach is own goals.

I love how some People are blaming Turkey for some alleged work Jihadis while even Assad let some ISIS Jihadis ones captured again free to blame later Rebels as working with Jihadis. He is nothing but just a Puppet of Russia but this Picture works very well in the Point of View of the Western World.

I guess we can all agree on the Point that there was a serious Opposition in Syria against Assad before ISIS? Always picking ISIS as Argument against some People (mostly Civilians) in case of Syria is nothing else then hypocrisy.


Dogukan only problem here is that some Members and Supporters of Leftist-Extremism are getting bombed away by the Turkish Air Force.

[Abdülmecid I]

3 millions is a completely unsubstantiated number. Many international institutions report this figure, but they consistently avoid to support their numbers with actual statistical data. Anyway, even Ankara's goal is to prevent refugees from gaining access to Turkey, so that the fragile domestic popularity of Erdoğan and Bahçeli, that doesn't necessarily mean that in the process tens of Turkish soldiers are not endangering their lives, thus obstructing the effort of the Syrian government to evict the al-Qaeda affiliates from Syria. Turkish equipment has found its way to Sunni extremist groups and today a second helicopter has been downed by a missile that was probably shot from an observation point.

It must be terrible for anybody that has lost relatives to the 2003 Istanbul bombings to watch the Turkish Army defending criminals who idolise the masterminds behind the massacre. As for the refugee issue, if the Turkish government is worried about the humanitarian disaster and instability on her borders, then she could simply have not supported various sectarian groups, in their attempts to overthrow the sovereign secular government in Damascus and ethnically cleanse the country from any religious minority. Sabotaging your neighbor may backfire badly, so hopefully Erdoğan has learned the value of following a cautious foreign policy and refrain from being involved into affairs you have no jurisdiction over.

I love how some People are blaming Turkey for some alleged work Jihadis while even Assad let some ISIS Jihadis ones captured again free to blame later Rebels as working with Jihadis. He is nothing but just a Puppet of Russia but this Picture works very well in the Point of View of the Western World.

This is a distorted version of an already debunked conspiracy-theory. It has been promoted by hawkish lobbyists in the United States, but so far no corroborating evidence has been brought up. In reality, the regime released political prisoners, largely including Salafists and Wahhabists, in order to satisfy one of the somewhat minor demands of the opposition. It was a weak tactic that ultimately failed, as the protestors were not appeased, but were instead reinforced by the joining of more experienced and determined activists. After all, suggesting that someone deliberately enhanced the military capabilities of his opponents, just for the sake of damaging the Western narrative, is so absurd that defies common sense.

[Love Mountain]

I suppose it'd be too much to ask for heads of state to follow a transparent and socially conscious foreign policy.

[Heathen Hammer]

By the same logic the SAA, Russia, Iran and Hezbollah helped ISIS by attacking the FSA, thus damaging the war effort against ISIS, and are responsible for ISIS actions.

FSA, Al-Qaeda, ISIS and Al-Nusra and other theocratic terrorist groups fought each other, but it doesn't really mean that secular Syria and pro-Syrian coalition removing all of them at once wasn't the right thing to do.

[PointOfViewGun]

3 millions is a completely unsubstantiated number. Many international institutions report this figure, but they consistently avoid to support their numbers with actual statistical data. Anyway, even Ankara's goal is to prevent refugees from gaining access to Turkey, so that the fragile domestic popularity of Erdoğan and Bahçeli, that doesn't necessarily mean that in the process tens of Turkish soldiers are not endangering their lives, thus obstructing the effort of the Syrian government to evict the al-Qaeda affiliates from Syria. Turkish equipment has found its way to Sunni extremist groups and today a second helicopter has been downed by a missile that was probably shot from an observation point.

It must be terrible for anybody that has lost relatives to the 2003 Istanbul bombings to watch the Turkish Army defending criminals who idolise the masterminds behind the massacre. As for the refugee issue, if the Turkish government is worried about the humanitarian disaster and instability on her borders, then she could simply have not supported various sectarian groups, in their attempts to overthrow the sovereign secular government in Damascus and ethnically cleanse the country from any religious minority. Sabotaging your neighbor may backfire badly, so hopefully Erdoğan has learned the value of following a cautious foreign policy and refrain from being involved into affairs you have no jurisdiction over.

This doesn't really address the refugee issue. It's almost as if you imply that Turkey needs to just accept Syrian government brutality and allow hundreds of thousands of people to displaced and added to the refugee pool in Turkey. In that regard, you're providing no alternative. Anyways, its nice to see backtracking from your earlier claim that Turkish soldiers were fighting side by side with HTS.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

FSA, Al-Qaeda, ISIS and Al-Nusra and other theocratic terrorist groups fought each other, but it doesn't really mean that secular Syria and pro-Syrian coalition removing all of them at once wasn't the right thing to do.

They weren't removed at once were they now. The SAA tried its hardest to ignore ISIS and more or less avoid fighting it up until roughly 2017.

[Heathen Hammer]

They weren't removed at once were they now. The SAA tried its hardest to ignore ISIS and more or less avoid fighting it up until roughly 2017.

ISIS was not the only theocratic terrorist group that occupied Syria at the time.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

ISIS was not the only theocratic terrorist group that occupied Syria at the time.

The Assad regime largely prioritised the more moderate rebels to make sure only jihadists group are left standing in the future, much easier to make the secular vs jihadist propaganda then. Had the SDF not forced the SAA's hand by advancing against ISIS I'd wager the SAA would attempt to leave ISIS for last. Regardless, this brings us back to square one: by your logic, attacking those other groups harms the fight against ISIS. This statement by you however implies that perhaps there can be other targets more important to fight than ISIS, which shows that your claim that by Israel targeting weapon shipments to anti-Israel terrorist groups such as Hezbollah it harms the fight against ISIS is just pure propaganda, considering that neither the Assad regime nor clearly you consider that to be the most important factor, but rather a convenient excuse.

[Vanoi]

So, you downgraded your defense of "they fight side by side" to "they work together". OK.

Is there a difference? Does it change that Turkey admitted to supporting a rebel advance that included HTS? Thus Turkey was helping the HTS?

I was looking for examples of them fighting side by side.

And Turkey has admitted to supporting their advance. That is fighting side by side.

You seem to have ignored what I said as well. Turkish attacks around Idlib are not related to helping out HTS but to hurt the Syrian advance to postpone an other refugee crisis. When Assad takes over lands the public does not run towards Assad but towards Turkey. The displacement caused by the fighting in Idlib is reported as the largest displacement that happened throughout this conflict.

Didn't ignore it. It just doesn't change my point. Main goal is to stop the regime advance, but in doing so they are working with and fighting with HTS. I'm well aware of the displacement as well. I never once claimed the only reason Turkey was involved currently in Idlib was to help the HTS.

[Nebaki]

Turkish equipment has found its way to Sunni extremist groups and today a second helicopter has been downed by a missile that was probably shot from an observation point.

What is for you a Sunni extremist group? I saw ISIS driving M1 Abrams & other Equipment which are clearly not from Turkey. The downing of that helicopter was response nothing else which was caused by Russia & Vassals.

It must be terrible for anybody that has lost relatives to the 2003 Istanbul bombings to watch the Turkish Army defending criminals who idolise the masterminds behind the massacre.

How is Turkish Army defending them?

As for the refugee issue, if the Turkish government is worried about the humanitarian disaster and instability on her borders, then she could simply have not supported various sectarian groups, in their attempts to overthrow the sovereign secular government in Damascus and ethnically cleanse the country from any religious minority. Sabotaging your neighbor may backfire badly, so hopefully Erdoğan has learned the value of following a cautious foreign policy and refrain from being involved into affairs you have no jurisdiction over.

That minority how it comes won his last elections under 90-95% and if we look a little back on the History how even Syria was founded, I don´t think that Erdogan as sabotaged here anything. His first attempts was not even against so-called "soverein secular government" which is clearly a Puppet now between Russia and Iran. I guess you can assume which concerns let Turkey first enter Syria.

This is a distorted version of an already debunked conspiracy-theory. It has been promoted by hawkish lobbyists in the United States, but so far no corroborating evidence has been brought up. In reality, the regime released political prisoners, largely including Salafists and Wahhabists, in order to satisfy one of the somewhat minor demands of the opposition. It was a weak tactic that ultimately failed, as the protestors were not appeased, but were instead reinforced by the joining of more experienced and determined activists. After all, suggesting that someone deliberately enhanced the military capabilities of his opponents, just for the sake of damaging the Western narrative, is so absurd that defies common sense.

Is it for not absurd that a Minority has won his Elections with 90-95%? A Minority is leading a Country while the Majority can´t even get elected? <--- that defies for me the common sense.

[Abdülmecid I]

Turkey is protecting al-Nusra/HTS by arming it directly or indirectly, by building observation points to undermine the advance of the Syrian Army, by threatening to violate her southern neighbor's sovereignty, as long as the Syrians do not retreat to their former lines and by consistently refusing to enforce the terms of the Sochi agreement. From a geopolitical perspective, it's a stupid in the long term, while ethically it is absolutely disgusting, given the viciousness of al-Nusra's doctrine and the record of its parental organisation of murdering innocent civilians, Turks included.

Syria is not controlled by a minority. This is a very sectarian interpretation of Syrian internal politics and does not reflect reality. The Syrian regular army is mainly composed of Sunnis and the largest portion of the Syrian Sunni community has preferred the secular policies of the state authorities to the religious bigotry propagated by the rebels. The city of Aleppo is a nice example of this tendency: It was from the beginning hostile to the insurgency, while its eastern portion resisted against jihadist attacks since the eventual liberation of the city in 2016.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The reason for that superficial discrepancy is pretty simple: People usually support or at least tolerate that factions that is capable of providing basic services for their needs and ensures a minimum of stability, public order and the rule of law. The Syrian government does not excel in any of these domains, but remains a much better alternative to the Wahhabi warlords of Idlib. On the contrary, the leadership's view on Caliphs dead since the 7th century AD is a much smaller priority. Moreover, the victim narrative concerning the alleged widespread Sunni persecution in the country is endorsed by Salafist groups, like ISIL, al-Nusra, Turkish proxies and etc., but is also directly contradicted by the fact that wealthy Sunnis (like the wife of dictator Assad) enjoy a privileged position in the society and that Sunni conscripts still insist on fighting against the radical rebels.

[PointOfViewGun]

Is there a difference? Does it change that Turkey admitted to supporting a rebel advance that included HTS? Thus Turkey was helping the HTS?
And Turkey has admitted to supporting their advance. That is fighting side by side.
Didn't ignore it. It just doesn't change my point. Main goal is to stop the regime advance, but in doing so they are working with and fighting with HTS. I'm well aware of the displacement as well. I never once claimed the only reason Turkey was involved currently in Idlib was to help the HTS.

If they're the same its better to keep the wording the same as well. You're trying to conflate multiple levels as if they amount to the same thing. You wouldn't use such a low standard for something you defend. Why use it now is beyond me. Just because they have the same goal doesn't mean they support each other.

Turkey is protecting al-Nusra/HTS by arming it directly or indirectly, by building observation points to undermine the advance of the Syrian Army, by threatening to violate her southern neighbor's sovereignty, as long as the Syrians do not retreat to their former lines and by consistently refusing to enforce the terms of the Sochi agreement. From a geopolitical perspective, it's a stupid in the long term, while ethically it is absolutely disgusting, given the viciousness of al-Nusra's doctrine and the record of its parental organisation of murdering innocent civilians, Turks included.

Was your lack of sources on your claims due to lack of trying or failing to find any? Clearly, you made an attempt since you did source your points on the byproducts of the Syrian conflict. You fail to provide an alternative as well. Turkey should simply pack up and leave and let Assad butcher the people in that region creating an other refugee crisis? Somehow, people are not running towards Assad while being subjected to this viciousness of al-Nusra/HTS. If Turkey needs to choose between millions of Syrians living under HTS or Assad, and the people choose HTS, then it's hardly disgusting that they try to stop Assad. You're also conflating failing to enforce Sochi with refusing it. It's like we have to ignore every single reality on the ground, including continuous bombardments from Assad.

[Nebaki]

Turkey is protecting al-Nusra/HTS by arming it directly or indirectly, by building observation points to undermine the advance of the Syrian Army, by threatening to violate her southern neighbor's sovereignty, as long as the Syrians do not retreat to their former lines and by consistently refusing to enforce the terms of the Sochi agreement. From a geopolitical perspective, it's a stupid in the long term, while ethically it is absolutely disgusting, given the viciousness of al-Nusra's doctrine and the record of its parental organisation of murdering innocent civilians, Turks included.

Turkey is not protecting al-Nusra/HTS by arming it directly or indireclty <---- provide an Serious Source for this but please don´t came up with some Russian Troll Propaganda, besides that "threatening to violate her southern neighbor's sovereignty" is funny a claim when any other neighbour of Turkey since it´s foundation is threatening their own sovereignty like arming or even protecting of some known organisation in based somewhere Middle-East-Region.

I already mentioned it that those so-called al-Nusra/HTS even not making 1% of Idlib and neverless is this a justification for a Bomb runs over that City with some Su-24 squadrons which are cleary dropping unguided Bombs over their own Citizens.

Syria is not controlled by a minority. This is a very sectarian interpretation of Syrian internal politics and does not reflect reality. The Syrian regular army is mainly composed of Sunnis and the largest portion of the Syrian Sunni community has preferred the secular policies of the state authorities to the religious bigotry propagated by the rebels. The city of Aleppo is a nice example of this tendency: It was from the beginning hostile to the insurgency, while its eastern portion resisted against jihadist attacks since the eventual liberation of the city in 2016.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Can you provide us too your Source of those Infographic or is it from a Pro-Russian Side? Why should Sunnis work with Assad or even Shiites? That does not make really Sense. If they are loving their Country so much they can get rid of Assad, making an Ceasefire and starting new Elections. Most of the Syrian citizens are displaced aren´t even there or already being a Refugee in a foreign Country. You just say the ones who left are making the Majority which cannot be true.

The reason for that superficial discrepancy is pretty simple: People usually support or at least tolerate that factions that is capable of providing basic services for their needs and ensures a minimum of stability, public order and the rule of law. The Syrian government does not excel in any of these domains, but remains a much better alternative to the Wahhabi warlords of Idlib. On the contrary, the leadership's view on Caliphs dead since the 7th century AD is a much smaller priority. Moreover, the victim narrative concerning the alleged widespread Sunni persecution in the country is endorsed by Salafist groups, like ISIL, al-Nusra, Turkish proxies and etc., but is also directly contradicted by the fact that wealthy Sunnis (like the wife of dictator Assad) enjoy a privileged position in the society and that Sunni conscripts still insist on fighting against the radical rebels.

Where is your Source for that? Those Sunni´s would have Family which are fighting Assad or even before getting harmed by his Father, it´s not like that anyone would like to fight his Family Members. Again your claims in this are beyond then anything but making Sense.

[Abdülmecid I]

The words in blue include the links to the articles, whose information I cited. Foreign policy is actually biased against the Syrian government, while the ORB International is a widely recognized polling company. Both of them are more reliable than Daily Sabah and the rest of the AKP-controlled media. There are several convoys which cross the Turkish-Syrian border and which equip HTS and its extremist allies with lethal weapons. In the previous page, I posted an image of a recently delivered armoured vehicle decorated with a HTS flag. Others have been offered to the terrorists' closest affiliates, like Jaysh al-Ahrar, as the notoriously anti-government journalist Julian Röpcke explains.

Was your lack of sources on your claims due to lack of trying or failing to find any? Clearly, you made an attempt since you did source your points on the byproducts of the Syrian conflict. You fail to provide an alternative as well. Turkey should simply pack up and leave and let Assad butcher the people in that region creating an other refugee crisis? Somehow, people are not running towards Assad while being subjected to this viciousness of al-Nusra/HTS. If Turkey needs to choose between millions of Syrians living under HTS or Assad, and the people choose HTS, then it's hardly disgusting that they try to stop Assad. You're also conflating failing to enforce Sochi with refusing it. It's like we have to ignore every single reality on the ground, including continuous bombardments from Assad.

Citation needed for the claim that ''Assad'' is going to slaughter the civilians of Idlib. You heard similar doom-and-gloom scenarios from twitter activists, just when Aleppo was about to be liberated, but then the only reports about committed massacres concerned the jihadist side. The civilians run away from the ongoing military engagements, a part of which aerial bombardment normally is. This exodus should not be arbitrarily interpreted as a sign of fear or animosity towards the prospect of their communities falling under the jurisdiction of the sovereign Syrian state. Also, how do the people prefer HTS viciousness over ''Assad'' if they flee to Turkey? Thirdly, given that Turkey didn't even try to fulfill her promises, it is safe to assume that she simply refused to implement its terms, which is why both Syria and Russia are legally more than welcome to restore the country's basic infrastructure, by reclaiming the highways and border crossings absolutely vital to Syrian economy.

A viable alternative for Turkey would have been to stop meddling in the domestic affairs of Syria. If she didn't provide safe passage and rifles to every psychotic aiming to install sharia in Syria, then the current chaos would have probably been avoided. Unfortunately, Erdoğan insisted on praying in the Ummayad Mosque of Damascus, regardless of the negative repercussions, but that doesn't mean that Syria is now morally obliged to accept Turkey violating her sovereignty, because the latter was incapable of following a coherent, peaceful and reasonable foreign policy.

[PointOfViewGun]

The words in blue include the links to the articles, whose information I cited. Foreign policy is actually biased against the Syrian government, while the ORB International is a widely recognized polling company. Both of them are more reliable than Daily Sabah and the rest of the AKP-controlled media. There are several convoys which cross the Turkish-Syrian border and which equip HTS and its extremist allies with lethal weapons. In the previous page, I posted an image of a recently delivered armoured vehicle decorated with a HTS flag. Others have been offered to the terrorists' closest affiliates, like Jaysh al-Ahrar, as the notoriously anti-government journalist Julian Röpcke explains.

Citation needed for the claim that ''Assad'' is going to slaughter the civilians of Idlib. You heard similar doom-and-gloom scenarios from twitter activists, just when Aleppo was about to be liberated, but then the only reports about committed massacres concerned the jihadist side. The civilians run away from the ongoing military engagements, a part of which aerial bombardment normally is. This exodus should not be arbitrarily interpreted as a sign of fear or animosity towards the prospect of their communities falling under the jurisdiction of the sovereign Syrian state. Also, how do the people prefer HTS viciousness over ''Assad'' if they flee to Turkey? Thirdly, given that Turkey didn't even try to fulfill her promises, it is safe to assume that she simply refused to implement its terms, which is why both Syria and Russia are legally more than welcome to restore the country's basic infrastructure, by reclaiming the highways and border crossings absolutely vital to Syrian economy.

A viable alternative for Turkey would have been to stop meddling in the domestic affairs of Syria. If she didn't provide safe passage and rifles to every psychotic aiming to install sharia in Syria, then the current chaos would have probably been avoided. Unfortunately, Erdoğan insisted on praying in the Ummayad Mosque of Damascus, regardless of the negative repercussions, but that doesn't mean that Syria is now morally obliged to accept Turkey violating her sovereignty, because the latter was incapable of following a coherent, peaceful and reasonable foreign policy.

HTS using Turkish arms seems to be a result of defecting FSA soldiers joining HTS ranks carrying the Turkish weapons they got as part of FSA. While it's troubling it doesn't amount to Turkey arming HTS. Interesting that you site Julian Röpcke on that inaccurately while ignoring his reporting on Assad's indiscriminate bombing. He is on the forefront of that "propaganda" you speak of... Given that Idlib in general, which includes HTS's territory, is under constant attacks from Assad people are fleeing to Turkey instead of Assad. If HTS's viciousness was a factor then the people wouldn't be fleeing to their supposed ally, Turkey. They'd be fleeing to their supposed liberator, Assad. Your claim that Turkey didn't even try to meet the terms of Sochia agreement, while ignoring the actual reality on the ground, requires actual sources. Did Russia and Assad follow the agreement while Turkey didn't?

As expected you provide no alternative. The response you provide does not concern today but the past. It's a "what if" scenario. I can only conclude that you welcome Assad's brutality and see it as OK to have millions more fleeing Syria into Turkey which creates new crisis in turn. What Assad wants there is basically ethno-sectarian cleansing. Just because Turkey failed miserably in how it dealt with Syria before it means that millions of people can be left to suffer?

[Vanoi]

If they're the same its better to keep the wording the same as well. You're trying to conflate multiple levels as if they amount to the same thing. You wouldn't use such a low standard for something you defend. Why use it now is beyond me. Just because they have the same goal doesn't mean they support each other.

Whats low standard is your argument. Supporting the rebels and giving them weapons is working with them and fighting with them. You want to argue over semantics about how i worded my claim when you and I both know my entire point is Turkey is working with a group comproised of Salfists and jihadists. You just want to distract from that point and you know it.

[PointOfViewGun]

Whats low standard is your argument. Supporting the rebels and giving them weapons is working with them and fighting with them. You want to argue over semantics about how i worded my claim when you and I both know my entire point is Turkey is working with a group comproised of Salfists and jihadists. You just want to distract from that point and you know it.

Sigh... Conflation of different issues born from ignorant arguments is nothing but that. What was said before already counters this. So do continue.