ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

[dogukan]

Trump just endorsed an ethnic cleansing campaign for turkey to form jihadi colonies.

Unbelievable amount of short-sightedness.



Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

[Exarch]

Really you are rolling with that after the stream of news out of Hong Kong? Hey and didn't something happen in a big square in China once? PTSD is sort of a function and feature of going off to war for a fair percentage of people. I take it millennial zoomers in China are immune right? ?

You damn tootin' right they're immune! They have the vaccination of a sensible government that doesn't do senseless wars to benefit the precious few business elites...now in the case of the white american oligarchy...

Meanwhile, according to the american propaganda mouthpieces on the ground, the Kurds have said:

“The Americans are traitors. They have abandoned us to a Turkish massacre.We can no longer fight against isis and have to defend ourselves. This could allow isis to return to the region.

Source: https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/sta...49669017231360

It must not be a good day for American specops in kurdistan, trying to hightail it out of there in one piece. Guess the Kurds should have learnt from the Hmong and the Montagnards

[ioannis76]

Really you are rolling with that after the stream of news out of Hong Kong? Hey and didn't something happen in a big square in China once?

Oh, ok then, I guess that BECAUSE the Chinese did this and that, then it's OK for the US to betray its allies.
Interesting to see that the US is no longer a significant power, and that NATO allies can pretty much do as they please.

[caratacus]

Could this be the issue, that led to the Bolton departure? This and Afghanistan certainly were key issue between him and the president over US commitment to direct involvement. The unpredictability of a Trump presidency and its deterring effect is wearing off it seems, as the 2020 election approaches and Trump fights agaiinst an agressive political battle with the Democrats in Washington. Iran, North Korea, the Taliban and now Turkey are all seemingly emboldened by testing US resolve.

[Odenat]

PYD terrorist organization is the biggest threat to peace and stability of the area. Free Syrian Army and Turkish soldiers are readying to destroy the terrorists just like USA did to ISIS.

Trump just announced on twitter that "The Kurds fought with us but were paid massive amounts of money." So, PYD took billions of dollars from USA to fight vs ISIS. They were nothing more than mercenaries, they didn't fight for peace and stability, they fought for money. PYD also is one of the biggest drug trading organizations at the world; https://www.setav.org/en/analysis-th...rco-terrorism/

Just one hour ago, Russia announced that "Russia knows about and accepts Turkish operation to the area." The operation will also be a win for EU too; 3.6 Million Syrian refugees at Turkey will be settled at the area, they won't need to go to EU. As you know, for the last month, Greece again became the country that gets higher number of refugees at EU. I'm sure Greeeks are happy that those refugees goes back to Syria.

[Vanoi]

PYD are a far better choice than Turkish proxies who are nothing but jihadists and Islamists. This is going to backfire and lead to more refugees but let it be the Turks problem now.

[Tureuki]

I don't understand why everyone blame Trump for this decision, since when USA was considered a reliable ally for anyone? USA was simultaenously betraying a decades long ally while building up its alliance with the PYD.

American public seems to be a worthy match for Turkish public in terms of sucking up everything the media serves, they might even have the edge. Nobody has any idea about the reason behind Turkey's hostility for PYD, or the reason behind detoriation of US-Turkish relationship based on Syria events.

[Vanoi]

Domald Trump is to blame and not putting Turkish interests ahead of everyone else in the alliance is not betraying Turkey. I'm glad Congress still controls some foreign matters or else Trump would just bend over for the Turks.

[Tureuki]

Those "interests" you are talking about are national security matters, it's the red line. I refuse to believe that you people fail at grasping this simple formula, in Turkey, the effect of PKK and it's ideology is much more deep rooted than the effect of Al Qaeda and ISIS among the American public. There are times that we lose people to PKK's actions DAILY, and it has been going on for decades. Now imagine a US neighbour harboring ISIS militants near the US border, arming and training them, basically making them a political power right next to your door step, imagine your reaction and make it 2x.

Please don't come to me with PYD ain't PKK excuse, your officials have been handshaking with PYD "generals" who are, in fact, are known high ranking PKK militants. I still remember the huge ass Apo painting in Afrin from the times of operation.

[Vanoi]

Those "interests" you are talking about are national security matters, it's the red line. I refuse to believe that you people fail at grasping this simple formula, in Turkey, the effect of PKK and it's ideology is much more deep rooted than the effect of Al Qaeda and ISIS among the American public.

This goes far beyond the support of the YPG. Turkey buying Russian weapons and working with them in Syria, helping Iran skirt sanctions, and the issue of drilling off of Cyprus. This has become a wide range of issues now.

There are times that we lose people to PKK's actions DAILY, and it has been going on for decades. Now imagine a US neighbour harboring ISIS militants near the US border, arming and training them, basically making them a political power right next to your door step, imagine your reaction and make it 2x.

Please don't come to me with PYD ain't PKK excuse, your officials have been handshaking with PYD "generals" who are, in fact, are known high ranking PKK militants. I still remember the huge ass Apo painting in Afrin from the times of operation.

Here comes the PKK excuse right on point. The PYD is not the PKK no matter how much you keep saying they are.

I mean hell you Turks think anyone who opposes you or has a pro-Kuridsh stance is PKK. You sacked three mayors over that allegation and tried to claim a Christian pastor was both a Gulenist and a supporter of the PKK at the same time.

Whats really funny is that you claim the US supported the PYD is like supporting Al-Qaeda or ISIS on your border meanwhile Turkey's proxy forces are composed of the very same Islamists and jihadists as Al-Qaeda and ISIS.

I mean Turkey even outright gave support to HTS during the last offensive in Idlib. You are doing the sane thing you complained about the US doing to you in Syria.

The entire Turkish position on Syria is nothing but hypocrpisy.

[Abdülmecid I]

Actually, even the presidential tweet almost implies that YPG is PKK, although that's probably more of a sign of Donald's failing eloquence than a semi-official recognition of the link between the two separatist groups. Anyway, the green-lighting of the Turkish invasion of northern Syria was hardly surprising. Turkey held, holds and will continue to hold much more diplomatic leverage and geopolitical importance than a relatively tiny militia occupying the less developed portion of an impoverished country.

Now that ISIL has been evaporated, the only value of YPG is that it prevents Damascus and by extension her allies in Tehran and Moscow, from controlling a certain number of urban centers, infrastructure and natural resources situated in eastern Syria, a specific advantage that it is not even indirectly harmed by the proposed "safe-zone" of Turkey. I even doubt that the American withdrawal is seriously strain their relationship with the Kurds, as the military presence of the US still remains a necessary deterrent against Syrians and Turks, which means that they are obliged to make concessions, in order not to disappoint their much more powerful friend.

Trump's decision could be considered morally controversial, but, from a cynical perspective, it makes perfect sense, as it improves the cooperation with a key NATO partner in the region, without actually undermining at the slightest the American sphere of influence in the Fertile Crescent. It certainly sucks for the locals, although the number of refugees in Turkey could be reduced, if Ankara indeed encourages them to settle in homes that have been abandoned by YPG sympathisers. Any scenario of America ditching Turkey for the sake of any of her weaker neighbors with a grudge against her, from Kurdish guerillas to Balkan nationalists was completely delusional from the beginning. Trump simply confirmed the obvious and inevitable.

Trump just announced on twitter that "The Kurds fought with us but were paid massive amounts of money." So, PYD took billions of dollars from USA to fight vs ISIS. They were nothing more than mercenaries, they didn't fight for peace and stability, they fought for money. PYD also is one of the biggest drug trading organizations at the world;

TFSA is essentially the definition of misbehaving mercenaries. Apart from being religiously intolerant, they harbour in their ranks outright criminal elements, who regularly extort, kidnap, abuse, rob and murder the residents of Afrin, while also being busy looting the place, desecrating historical monuments and fighting among themselves. Taking into account the savages she had hired to act as her cannon-fodder, Turkey is not really entitled to complain about YPG allegedly being a greedy mob.

[Papay]

I dont understand what people are talking about here. Turkey has the strongest army in the area and, at least on paper, is the closest US ally in the area above Israel or Saudi Arabia(since its part of NATO). If Turkey invades, US has zero options so its better to withdraw under an agreement than withdraw under the threat of violence

[PointOfViewGun]

This should have been done in the early years of the conflict. It would have stopped the rise of ISIL in Syria, as well as YPG, and help to contain the refugee crisis. This was what Turkey wanted to do back then but they asked for Western backing not to appear as invaders. Now, Turkey, by itself, is forced to do it.

[Vanoi]

This should have been done in the early years of the conflict. It would have stopped the rise of ISIL in Syria, as well as YPG, and help to contain the refugee crisis. This was what Turkey wanted to do back then but they asked for Western backing not to appear as invaders. Now, Turkey, by itself, is forced to do it.

Turkey shared a border with ISIS for years. Turkey watched as ISIS assaulted Kobani. It wasn't until the Kurds crossed the Euphrates that ISIS suddenly became a problem. The idea that Turkey wanted to do this long ago is complete .

[Tureuki]

Turkey did not suddenly decided to put a distance to USA and improve it's relationship with Russia. Do you remember any intentional incident that was anti-USA or anti-western in general up until 2010s? AKP government, like the previous governments since 40s, continued the "obedience," till they finally realized that the obviously US backed "more loyal" Gulenists were trying to overthrow them from the inside. Only after this, and the PYD situation that AKP government changed it's route, the cause is still you, you simply couldn't bear to watch Turkey become even slightly more independent.

PYD has a direct connection to PKK and i thought that even your guys stopped denying this connection? I mean the tone of refusal seems to be lightened. KRG is pro-Kurdish too, in it's own way, seperate from the PKK ideology, Turkey sustains a relatively friendly relationship with them for years, this alone proves that the problem is not the Kurds, or anyone being "pro-Kurdish," problem is spesifically the PKK ideology.

I said multiple times that AKP's Syria policy was retarded, but that doesn't neutralize your side's doings.

About ISIS, i also answered this many times. ISIS was never a bigger threat than PKK for our own national security, i remember Turkish officials repeatedly saying that Turkey would participate in a multinational offense, but instead, Turkey was repeatedly asked to spearhead the whole thing. We didn't had enough reasons to commit ourself into a solo large scale invasion that would cost considerable lives and would obviously cause an uproar in public.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Turkey is the biggest threat to peace and stability of the area.

FTFY.

Also, Trump tweeted the following: "As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!)."

[Vanoi]

Turkey did not suddenly decided to put a distance to USA and improve it's relationship with Russia. Do you remember any intentional incident that was anti-USA or anti-western in general up until 2010s? AKP government, like the previous governments since 40s, continued the "obedience," till they finally realized that the obviously US backed "more loyal" Gulenists were trying to overthrow them from the inside. Only after this, and the PYD situation that AKP government changed it's route, the cause is still you, you simply couldn't bear to watch Turkey become even slightly more independent

You mean that very convient coup that Erdogan used to expamd his powers and arrest tens of thousands of people and forcing tens of thousands of others out of their jobs over very unsubstantiated claims to Gulenists?
There's no evidence this was CIA backed. Not one shred has ever been presented to prove that.

Turkey has had ambitions far before this "coup" and Erdogan is now just letting them known.

PYD has a direct connection to PKK and i thought that even your guys stopped denying this connection? I mean the tone of refusal seems to be lightened. KRG is pro-Kurdish too, in it's own way, seperate from the PKK ideology, Turkey sustains a relatively friendly relationship with them for years, this alone proves that the problem is not the Kurds, or anyone being "pro-Kurdish," problem is spesifically the PKK ideology.

As i said the PYD isnt the PKK. The connection is used as an excuse.

I said multiple times that AKP's Syria policy was retarded, but that doesn't neutralize your side's doings.

You mean defeating ISIS? Cause thats what the US achieved with the Kurds.

About ISIS, i also answered this many times. ISIS was never a bigger threat than PKK for our own national security, i remember Turkish officials repeatedly saying that Turkey would participate in a multinational offense, but instead, Turkey was repeatedly asked to spearhead the whole thing. We didn't had enough reasons to commit ourself into a solo large scale invasion that would cost considerable lives and would obviously cause an uproar in public.

That was directed toward Seth, not you. You at least bother to admit it. ISIS may have not been considered a bigger threat to Turkey than the PKK but they were a threat to the Middle East and to the rest of NATO which some of its members expierenced first hand. Yet Turkey did not care. Its needs were put above everyone else.

The multinational colaition Turkey asked for wouldn't have worked without local troops on the ground. So Turkey suggests the rebels. The US didn't want to support jihadists or Islamists and the US already try to support a moderate rebel anti-ISIS forced. It failed. Turkey's own effort sucked as well considering Turkey had to conduct operations against its own proxy forces.

Congress is introducting sanctions against Turkey

https://www.rollcall.com/news/congre...can-opposition

[PointOfViewGun]

Turkey shared a border with ISIS for years. Turkey watched as ISIS assaulted Kobani. It wasn't until the Kurds crossed the Euphrates that ISIS suddenly became a problem. The idea that Turkey wanted to do this long ago is complete .

Turkey was helping YPG the same time it was helping ISIL just like many other Western states. You keep ignoring that little fact. Nonetheless, as early as 2011:

Syria: Turkey raises prospect of buffer zone for first time

Turkey raised the prospect of a buffer zone inside Syria put in place by its own troops and those of other countries for the first time, as international tensions over the fighting inside the country worsened.

Ahmet Davutoglu, the Turkish foreign minister, gave voice to contingency plans long thought to be under discussion in Ankara, but went further in adding that international action might be required.

"If the oppression continues, Turkey is ready for any scenario," he said in an interview on local television. "We hope that a military intervention will never be necessary. The Syrian regime has to find a way of making peace with its own people.

"If tens, hundreds of thousands of people start advancing towards the Iraq, Lebanon, Turkey borders, not only Turkey but the international community may be required to take some steps such as a buffer zone. We don't want that to happen but we must consider and work on that scenario."

[caratacus]

This should have been done in the early years of the conflict. It would have stopped the rise of ISIL in Syria, as well as YPG, and help to contain the refugee crisis. This was what Turkey wanted to do back then but they asked for Western backing not to appear as invaders. Now, Turkey, by itself, is forced to do it.

The creation of a buffer zone has come years too late. It may have been supported by Turkey at an early stage in the conflict, but I don't think many doubt that it was Turkey's intention during he Syrian war, to see the Kurds crushed by IS before undertaking any form of armed intervention themselves. Now with the Trump administration back peddling on foreign policy, and IS finished as a threat, it is a more attractive prospect, to bolster Erdogan's falling popularity and a failing economy.

I wonder how precisely a resettlement program will work, given that most Syrian refugees aren’t from that region. They aren’t African tribesmen who can be resettled in mud huts, they lived in modern homes before they were blown up.

It certainly sucks for the locals, although the number of refugees in Turkey could be reduced, if Ankara indeed encourages them to settle in homes that have been abandoned by YPG sympathisers.

And who decides that a home has been abandoned and its occupants (sorry former occupants} were YPG supporters? If this is the plan it indeed smacks of ethnic cleansing. These will not be long term sustainable communities and moving people across the border must be part of an overall strategy to restore peace in Syria in cooperation with the Syrian government, Russia America and importantly the Kurds themselves. I see only Turkey here acting in Turkish interests

[Lord Thesaurian]

FTFY.


Also, Trump tweeted the following: "As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!)."

Man, even three years into the Trump presidency, I was compelled to Google this for verification. It still never ceases to amaze me that the man honestly believes broadcasting his personal insecurities and neuroses to the whole planet to be an effective substitute for a foreign policy. I realize this is Trump we’re talking about, but at what point could Trump even claim to have “totally destroyed and obliterated” the economy of Turkey? Maybe he thinks he did so to Iran? Tweets like this lend credence to the theory that he’s prepping an insanity plea as a hail mary criminal defense.


Obama’s failure to pursue a coherent strategy with full force in Syria led to the US not really having a seat at the table today. Even if Trump were a normal, rational human being, the US doesn’t seem to have any real options except to stay or go. His incompetence, megalomania, and subservient deference to Putin will compound US failure into a total defeat and embarrassment in the region. Given that it’s unavoidable at this juncture, perhaps some face saving move to pretend the US is deliberately endorsing the Turkish position is the least bad option. Even Trump seems to understand his crying wolf about his toughness and matchless intellect no longer works as any kind of deterrent or motivation.

PARIS — European officials were angered and taken aback Monday by the Trump administration’s abrupt decision to withdraw American troops from the Syrian-Turkish border, as Turkey prepares a long-awaited offensive on U.S.-allied Kurdish forces in the region.
Across the continent, officials lamented what they saw as an unfortunate decision that would exacerbate high tensions in an increasingly unstable region. But they also protested another sharp attack from Trump on what he sees as European freeloading and excessive dependence on U.S. military support.
The French Foreign Ministry strongly cautioned against allowing Ankara to go ahead with a planned offensive.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...b37_story.html

Sane officials and policy experts are obviously angry at the about face this forces upon our allies, and the victory it delivers to our enemies, but nothing can be done now. In the end, when Europe is thoroughly in the grip of dependence on Russian energy with Russian proxy regimes on their doorstep, perhaps they’ll realize too late that they should have taken more aggressive military initiative to secure their own interests in the region.