ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

[Vanoi]

Sigh... And every single FSA division is constantly fighting?

Again you claimed the M113s came from defecting FSA units. The last FSA units who did defect did so after rebel infighting in Idlib in late 2018. The idea their M113 is still in perfect condition after being taken over a year ago in the middle of infighting from a group who'd already been using it is utterly ridiculous.

They received new M113s as late as last year. Why do you feel the need to resort to altering points at such a petty level? I didn't point at Hamza Division, which operates under FSA, to say they could produce M113s. Please try to focus. You already acknowledged the failure of your argument that M113s in question were an earlier model, in the worst possible manner of course, so why try to dilute that? Owning it would be better.

Stop trying to conflate the SNA with other rebel groups. Its not helping with your claim at all. Again do remember your claim. Because its obvious you are losing focus on what you actually said.

[PointOfViewGun]

Again you claimed the M113s came from defecting FSA units. The last FSA units who did defect did so after rebel infighting in Idlib in late 2018. The idea their M113 is still in perfect condition after being taken over a year ago in the middle of infighting from a group who'd already been using it is utterly ridiculous.
Stop trying to conflate the SNA with other rebel groups. Its not helping with your claim at all. Again do remember your claim. Because its obvious you are losing focus on what you actually said.

Sigh... As I said before, people argue how FSA keeps losing fighters to HTS to argue ineffectiveness of FSA as well. You here claim that there was no defection. Every defecting soldiers reports to you somehow? As expected, you try to frame a discussion around a particular scene, while ignoring all others, to make a defensible case. In reality, its quite likely that many of the M113s given to FSA never saw combat or received any damage to not render good looking maintenance of the vehicle. If FSA can produce its own armored personal carrier and make it look decent than they can easily maintain an M113 to look decent. SNA is the new name of FSA. Why you rely on such petty arguments is beyond me. Today, FSA, TFSA or SNA all point at the same collective of groups that help Turkey with its operations.

[Vanoi]

Sigh... As I said before, people argue how FSA keeps losing fighters to HTS to argue ineffectiveness of FSA as well. You here claim that there was no defection. Every defecting soldiers reports to you somehow?

Second time you have lied about what i said. Once again i never claimed there were not any FSA defections to the HTS. Only that any defections that have occured happened more than a year ago. Thus your claim that a M113 thats in near perfect condition came from defecting rebels is complete crap.

As expected, you try to frame a discussion around a particular scene, while ignoring all others, to make a defensible case. In reality, its quite likely that many of the M113s given to FSA never saw combat or received any damage to not render good looking maintenance of the vehicle. If FSA can produce its own armored personal carrier and make it look decent than they can easily maintain an M113 to look decent. SNA is the new name of FSA. Why you rely on such petty arguments is beyond me. Today, FSA, TFSA or SNA all point at the same collective of groups that help Turkey with its operations.

Up armoring a truck is not producing armored vehicles. And you keep trying to conflate the SNA with other rebel groups when the rebel groups. The rebels fighting in Idlib are NLF and HTS, not the SNA. The SNA is not the new name for the FSA either. The name refers to the myriad of rebel groups fighting for Turkey many of which are not FSA groups or never have been. In fact numerous FSA groups who still exist fight in other rebel organizations like HTS and the NLF.

You want try and claim because the SNA got new vehicles that the ones HTS possess simply came from them. Yet the last groups of FSA who defected were not part of the SNA or TFSA at the time. They were NLF.

So no. Your claim is still false and full of holes.

[ioannis76]

And so it seems that there's going to be a full scale war between Turkey and Syria. The question is, will Russia get directly involved?

[PointOfViewGun]

Second time you have lied about what i said. Once again i never claimed there were not any FSA defections to the HTS. Only that any defections that have occured happened more than a year ago. Thus your claim that a M113 thats in near perfect condition came from defecting rebels is complete crap.
Up armoring a truck is not producing armored vehicles. And you keep trying to conflate the SNA with other rebel groups when the rebel groups. The rebels fighting in Idlib are NLF and HTS, not the SNA. The SNA is not the new name for the FSA either. The name refers to the myriad of rebel groups fighting for Turkey many of which are not FSA groups or never have been. In fact numerous FSA groups who still exist fight in other rebel organizations like HTS and the NLF.
You want try and claim because the SNA got new vehicles that the ones HTS possess simply came from them. Yet the last groups of FSA who defected were not part of the SNA or TFSA at the time. They were NLF.
So no. Your claim is still false and full of holes.

You made that claim before and I provided why your claim was faulty already. I never argued that you were referring to the entirety of the conflict. I explained that before. The context of my words alone explained it before that. Your accusation of me lying is actually you lying. Why you try to bank on such a petty argumentation shows lack of ground for your actual position. Hence, you try to divert attention. Rest of your post is similarly BS. Not much I can do with such an approach. Good luck.

[PointOfViewGun]

Syria war: 33 Turkish soldiers killed in attack in Idlib

At least 33 Turkish soldiers have been killed in an air strike by Syrian government forces in north-west Syria, a senior Turkish official has said.
Others were injured in the attack in Idlib province, said Rahmi Dogan, the governor of Turkey's Hatay province.
Turkey retaliated by attacking Syrian government targets.
Russia, Syria's key military ally, said the Turkish troops had been operating alongside jihadist fighters when they were attacked by Syrian forces.
Government forces, supported by Russia, have been trying to retake Idlib from rebels who are backed by Turkey. The air strike came after the rebels retook the key town of Saraqeb.
The Syrian authorities themselves have so far made no public comments on the latest escalation in Idlib, the last Syrian province to remain in opposition hands.
Reports suggest Turkey, a key member of the Nato alliance, may be relaxing its border controls to allow Syrian refugees to seek refuge in the EU.

Last night, Syrian forces strike a building the Turkish soldiers were covering in in the village of Baluon, south of Idlib. The death toll quickly rose to 33, with dozens more wounded. The strike came shortly after rebels took over Seraqib, however, the location of the strike is quite far away from Seraqib.



While Russia was held responsible for the strike along with Assad, they were quick to declare that they did not know that there were Turkish soldiers soldiers in that region. Turkey rejected Russian claim, pointing that they did indeed provided information to Russians on where Turkish soldiers were.

The immediate Turkish response was to target known Assad armored vehicles and artillery units. Turkish TV stations have been broadcasting videos of artillery fire on Syrian targets. Currently, no Turkish plane can enter the Syrian airspace, though, there seems to be some UAV presence.



We're at the climax of the conflict between Syria and Turkey at this point.

[ioannis76]

Turkish soldiers were actively involved in the conflict even before the attack on the convoy (their involvement probably caused it). Here we see TURKISH troops using a stinger on what the video claims to be a Su-24 (I can't see it). In any event, if a superpower has aviation assets in an area and you're using anti aircraft weapons there, you're pretty much asking for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHw7VHhegqU

[Kyriakos]

Shock and outrage as Turkey gets its own people killed due to invading another country. /facepalm

[ioannis76]

Shock and outrage as Turkey gets its own people killed due to invading another country. /facepalm

That's what happens when neighboring nations coddle your armed forces. They consider it their right to enter a neighboring country and launch all kinds of ordnance.
Well, when there is a superpower on the potential receiving end, they get some ordnance back.
It's interesting that Turkey immediately called upon the NATO alliance (yes, that very alliance that she was slandering only recently), when push started to come to shove. Russia, on the other hand didn't need to call upon anyone.

The immediate Turkish response was to target known Assad armored vehicles and artillery units. T

It's interesting that Turkish drones (which are turkish-made drones) have English "hud" messages, such as "designator cutout". I would think they' d have the terms in turkish.

[Aexodus]

Syria war: 33 Turkish soldiers killed in attack in Idlib


Last night, Syrian forces strike a building the Turkish soldiers were covering in in the village of Baluon, south of Idlib. The death toll quickly rose to 33, with dozens more wounded. The strike came shortly after rebels took over Seraqib, however, the location of the strike is quite far away from Seraqib.



While Russia was held responsible for the strike along with Assad, they were quick to declare that they did not know that there were Turkish soldiers soldiers in that region. Turkey rejected Russian claim, pointing that they did indeed provided information to Russians on where Turkish soldiers were.

The immediate Turkish response was to target known Assad armored vehicles and artillery units. Turkish TV stations have been broadcasting videos of artillery fire on Syrian targets. Currently, no Turkish plane can enter the Syrian airspace, though, there seems to be some UAV presence.



We're at the climax of the conflict between Syria and Turkey at this point.

What does the Turkish military expect for invading Syria.

[ioannis76]

Interestingly enough, "The Regime", despite yesterday's devastating turkish strikes, managed to capture 5 more villages in southern Idlib, a few kilometers from the strike on the turkish convoy.
https://syria.liveuamap.com/en/2020/...he-villages-of

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Interestingly enough, "The Regime", despite yesterday's devastating turkish strikes, managed to capture 5 more villages in southern Idlib, a few kilometers from the strike on the turkish convoy.
https://syria.liveuamap.com/en/2020/...he-villages-of

Don't worry though, the Turks bombed the Kurds some more. That'll show them.

[PointOfViewGun]

What does the Turkish military expect for invading Syria.

For Assad to stop butchering his own people, perhaps? Assad has one purpose right now and that is to kick out as many people as he can so that he won't have to deal with them.

[Vanoi]

You made that claim before and I provided why your claim was faulty already. I never argued that you were referring to the entirety of the conflict. I explained that before. The context of my words alone explained it before that. Your accusation of me lying is actually you lying.

No my claim isn't false. I've addressed your counter-points and why it doesn't make sense. Like trying to claim you can fully maintain armored vehicles because you can slap armor on some trucks. By a group who isn't fighting in Idlib and has access to training and resources the other groups in idlib like HTS and NFL do not. And the only group who could have defected to HTS and ended up handing them Turkish M113s is the NFL.
You have continued to conflate the SNA with the other rebel groups when they are entirely separate to support your bad argument and I've explained thats false as well.

Hell, i have even asked you to name or reference the last defection from the FSA to HTS. Yet you couldn't even provide that information. Probably because your talking out of your ass and you know that referencing it wouldn't support your piss poor argument.

[Aexodus]

For Assad to stop butchering his own people, perhaps? Assad has one purpose right now and that is to kick out as many people as he can so that he won't have to deal with them.

That doesn’t give Turkey the right to invade whoever they want.

[Akar]

Turkey has realized that as long as Trump is in power and Erdogan has Trump by the balls they can get away with whatever they want in Syria, outside of straight up attacking Russians. Syria is an important ally in the region for Russia, but Turkey's actions don't necessarily rise to the level where the Russians would lose any of their interests.

[Cope]

Turkey has realized that as long as Trump is in power and Erdogan has Trump by the balls they can get away with whatever they want in Syria, outside of straight up attacking Russians. Syria is an important ally in the region for Russia, but Turkey's actions don't necessarily rise to the level where the Russians would lose any of their interests.

Erdogan has no leverage over Trump/the US. Most Americans are simply not interested in the US involving itself in yet another never-ending Middle Eastern squabble which won't benefit ordinary people in the States. It was initially felt (almost ten years ago now) that the Arab Spring could be used as a platform for Assad's removal, but no one was willing to commit to it - especially after the Russians decided to prop up the regime.

[Abdülmecid I]

The fall of Nayrab and Saraqib was a grave mistake for Syria and her allies. They probably underestimated Turkish obsession with the strategically vital town, as well as the capacity of the jihadists to launch well-coordinated offensives. Hopefully, the Syrian Army will recapture Saraqib and its immediate surroundings, in order to restore the functioning of the M5 highway, which will greatly benefit the quality of life of the Syrian people. Given how much the residents of Aleppo suffered since the invasion of alien rebel elements in 2012, I think they justifiably deserve an allevation of their ills.

What does the Turkish military expect for invading Syria.

Nobody can say with absolute certainty, but, in my opinion, it's probably a combination of different factors, with domestic popularity playing the major role. Turkey has received massive amounts of refugees, so, when several European countries whine over a few hundreds, you can imagine the damage inflicted Erdoğan's and Bahçeli's (the ultra-nationalist partner of the AKP) public image. Secondly, Erdoğan has constructed a profile of the international supporter of political and popular Islam across the Middle East, especially in Egypt and Syria, where he even promised to pray in the Umayyad Mosque of Damascus. This toxic rhetoric has really inflamed the political discourse in Turkey and is partially responsible for the assassination of Ambassador Karlov by a mentally unstable police officer. Thus, he has an interest in maintaining a strong position against the secular government of the Syrian Republic, despite previously having actually spent their holidays together in the beach resort of Bodrum:

Thirdly, Ankara can use its sphere of influence over its proxies in north-eastern Syria as a diplomatic card, through which she can later demand concessions from the Syrian Republic (e.g. Turkish investments on the rebuilding of the country's infrastructure or a common opposition against YPG, the local branch of PKK). Obviously, neither of these concerns if morally praiseworthy, which means that the complaints of the Turkish government over its soldiers getting bombed while collaborating with religious extremists are totally absurd.

For Assad to stop butchering his own people, perhaps? Assad has one purpose right now and that is to kick out as many people as he can so that he won't have to deal with them.

As I had said, you need to provide a citation for the claim that the Syrian government's goal is to evict as many people as possible. Allegations of ethnic cleansing had been raised before by Sunni extremists, but they were not supported by any concrete evidence. There was a lot of hysteria about the upcoming genocide of Aleppo, but eventually, it was only the rebels who were accused of indiscriminately massacring their prisoners. So far, it seems that the Syrians are simply trying to defeat the last (unless you take the al-Tanf enclave into account) bastion of Salafist warlords. Military interventions inevitably cause casualties among the civilian population, who usually moves away from the active war-zone. I don't see how the operation against the al-Qaeda affiliates and their various collaborators in anyhow different.

[Akar]

Erdogan has no leverage over Trump/the US. Most Americans are simply not interested in the US involving itself in yet another never-ending Middle Eastern squabble which won't benefit ordinary people in the States. It was initially felt (almost ten years ago now) that the Arab Spring could be used as a platform for Assad's removal, but no one was willing to commit to it - especially after the Russians decided to prop up the regime.

Remember the whole business of Turkey leaking news about Kashogi to humiliate the U.S? Remember Trump Towers Istanbul?

https://www.newsweek.com/ivanka-trum...oversy-1463536

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...est-sanctions/

Remember when Trump did nothing while Erdogan's body guards assaulted U.S protesters?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-washington-dc

[PointOfViewGun]

Interestingly, as its reported, Turkey used armed UAVs to perform precision strikes on a lot of Syrian government targets. One German journalist contemplated that Turkey wiped out half the Syrian government presence around Idlib. It is reported as the highest intensity drone strike usage in history. What this means that either Russians allowed Turkey to do this to support the idea that they had no role in the strike against Turkish troops, which is largely doubted, or that they're not really that capable in stopping air interventions. Serbia recently received Pantsir air defence systems that Turkish drones picked out yesterday. Israel was the only other country recorded to do so.

Another interesting point is that Israel performed a number of strikes from Golan heights against Syrian government forces as well. Back in 1998, when Turkey threatened Syria not to keep supporting PKK, Israel supported Turkey and pressured Syria from the south. Turkey was the hammer and Israel was the anvil.

That doesn’t give Turkey the right to invade whoever they want.

If Turkey gets directly affected, yes, it kinda does.

As I had said, you need to provide a citation for the claim that the Syrian government's goal is to evict as many people as possible. Allegations of ethnic cleansing had been raised before by Sunni extremists, but they were not supported by any concrete evidence. There was a lot of hysteria about the upcoming genocide of Aleppo, but eventually, it was only the rebels who were accused of indiscriminately massacring their prisoners. So far, it seems that the Syrians are simply trying to defeat the last (unless you take the al-Tanf enclave into account) bastion of Salafist warlords. Military interventions inevitably cause casualties among the civilian population, who usually moves away from the active war-zone. I don't see how the operation against the al-Qaeda affiliates and their various collaborators in anyhow different.

It's interesting to parrot Syrian/Russian propaganda points without the slightest evidence and ask about citations. Assad's strikes is proof enough. Deliberate bombing of hospitals that were reported to Syrian government as being hospitals alone is proof of that. I'm sorry but a random blog post from a 21 year old boy does not exactly constitute as good source. If you're gonna shoot down claims with such disinterest your sources should be much better. Since your actual position is so weak you divert attention to places like Aleppo. We're talking about Idlib where Syria/Russia have been indiscriminately bombing causing perhaps the largest population displacement since the beginning of this conflict. There is a reason why Syrians are running towards Turkey, and not the Syrian government held territories.

Remember the whole business of Turkey leaking news about Kashogi to humiliate the U.S? Remember Trump Towers Istanbul?
https://www.newsweek.com/ivanka-trum...oversy-1463536
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...est-sanctions/
Remember when Trump did nothing while Erdogan's body guards assaulted U.S protesters?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-washington-dc

This is a quite pretentious approach that ignores the reality on the ground.