ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

[Cookiegod]

By that logic Turkey would be in possession of chunks of Iraq and Syria even before the turn of the millennia.

If that was an attempt at making a cogent argument, it failed.

[Sir Adrian]

It would be better for the entire world if Turkey, and 4 other countries, was broken apart into smaller more peaceful nations.

[PointOfViewGun]

If that was an attempt at making a cogent argument, it failed.

It was an attempt to take a jab at you ignoring history of the region.

It would be better for the entire world if Turkey, and 4 other countries, was broken apart into smaller more peaceful nations.

That would be true for any country on this world given your requirement. If you didn't name it as a requirement but an expected outcome then it's a quite short-sighted statement.

[dogukan]

Lets not kid ourselves. Turkey's goal is clear, it is just a difficult one to sell to the world.

What Turkey wants is a gradual ethnic cleansing of Kurds. It does not have to be a violent one, but they want the Kurds to become an insignificant political identity so that there is no chance of a Kurdish autonomy or independence in Turkey.
However, with the exposure the Kurds have gotten and the Americans being so involved there, this had became a lot more difficult.

Everyday I watch Turkey make announcements on how YPG is a major threat to Turkey. How can a militia with no significant heavy weaponry be a major threat to Turkey? And why does it require for Turkey to completely take over all the YPG areas and "settle in" the refugees in Turkey?

There is no innocent move here, nor it is a "defensive" act by Turkey. It is simply an expression of Turkey's wrongs and inner problems caused by it to outside.

Who here seriously sees the PYD and its political project in Syria as violent, horrible project that is torturing people everyday? I honestly cringe when I watch Turkish TV reporting from Afrin and Syria, telling how Turkish army liberated and everyone is very happy and the people across are waiting for TSK's arrival...and have a couple of jihadis give interviews, not even in Kurdish

It is so sad that this is the identity of the country I am from in this age....

[Odenat]

Everyday I watch Turkey make announcements on how YPG is a major threat to Turkey. How can a militia with no significant heavy weaponry be a major threat to Turkey? And why does it require for Turkey to completely take over all the YPG areas and "settle in" the refugees in Turkey?

You know, your first question is easier to answer;. It is the same reason USA is trying to clear ISIS&Al-queda and Europeans are fighting against terrorism. No one of this terrorist organizations is a real threat to USA&West but still they are trying to destroy them. Are you asking them why they are doing this?

Now, for your second question. It has a long answer and not a pretty one. We Turkish are paying the mistakes of our grandfathers. While Western countries like USA, Canada, Australia, France, Russia civilized the native people living in their lands, our grandfathers stupidly believed that it was more important to give to those people rights, security, laws and freedom. Thus, the minorities of Ottoman Empires were never civilized, not like Native Americans, Tatars, Aborigines etc. But, we Turkish slowly learned from West since 1820s. We learned what Western values are, how to treat weaker peoples, how to settle a land, how to use international law etc. Thus, once we are starting to become powerful again (it started at 1980s), we are showing what we learned. We Turkish are almost a Western country today (as a final exam, we still need to invade a country on the pretext that they are supporting terrorists and took over their oil fields just like USA did at Iraq, England&France did at Libya)

Please think about where will Kurdish be today if they were originally living at USA, Canada, Australia or Western Europe. Let me help you, just read the following article:

https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-cult...e-photography/

[PointOfViewGun]

Lets not kid ourselves. Turkey's goal is clear, it is just a difficult one to sell to the world.
What Turkey wants is a gradual ethnic cleansing of Kurds. It does not have to be a violent one, but they want the Kurds to become an insignificant political identity so that there is no chance of a Kurdish autonomy or independence in Turkey.
However, with the exposure the Kurds have gotten and the Americans being so involved there, this had became a lot more difficult.
Everyday I watch Turkey make announcements on how YPG is a major threat to Turkey. How can a militia with no significant heavy weaponry be a major threat to Turkey? And why does it require for Turkey to completely take over all the YPG areas and "settle in" the refugees in Turkey?
There is no innocent move here, nor it is a "defensive" act by Turkey. It is simply an expression of Turkey's wrongs and inner problems caused by it to outside.
Who here seriously sees the PYD and its political project in Syria as violent, horrible project that is torturing people everyday? I honestly cringe when I watch Turkish TV reporting from Afrin and Syria, telling how Turkish army liberated and everyone is very happy and the people across are waiting for TSK's arrival...and have a couple of jihadis give interviews, not even in Kurdish
It is so sad that this is the identity of the country I am from in this age....

What a delusional post. The case at hand is Turkey's desire to have a buffer zone on the Syrian border but somehow this is fueled by Turkey's desire to ethnically cleanse Kurds in Turkey to kill any chance of Kurdic autonomy. Meanwhile, PKK, YPG's parent organization, burns hectares of forest area in western Turkey. How can one try to downplay the dangers of a border area being governed by a PKK haven is beyond me. Trying to make angels out of YPG is a futile project. It wasn't long ago when YPG paraded child soldiers on the streets of Syria. They are responsible for a lot of crimes; arbitrary arrests, crushing political opposition, ethnic cleansing, etc. They're not the spawn of Satan, but they're not angels as well. It's delusional to expect Turkey to just be fine with letting YPG control the Syrian border and be a safe haven for PKK members.

[Cookiegod]

It was an attempt to take a jab at you ignoring history of the region.

That jab would have been more effective, if the two of us hadn't had a discussion recently where I debunked a claim you made repeatedly with just 2 mins of research, or if "ignoring history" wasn't in your signature.

Wanna see a magic trick children? I'll teach you how to make an entire demographic disappear.

You know, your first question is easier to answer;. It is the same reason USA is trying to clear ISIS&Al-queda and Europeans are fighting against terrorism. No one of this terrorist organizations is a real threat to USA&West but still they are trying to destroy them. Are you asking them why they are doing this?

They aren't though. Wahabism is a child of the West as much as that of the East.

Now, for your second question. It has a long answer and not a pretty one. We Turkish are paying the mistakes of our grandfathers. While Western countries like USA, Canada, Australia, France, Russia civilized the native people living in their lands, our grandfathers stupidly believed that it was more important to give to those people rights, security, laws and freedom. Thus, the minorities of Ottoman Empires were never civilized, not like Native Americans, Tatars, Aborigines etc. But, we Turkish slowly learned from West since 1820s. We learned what Western values are, how to treat weaker peoples, how to settle a land, how to use international law etc. Thus, once we are starting to become powerful again (it started at 1980s), we are showing what we learned. We Turkish are almost a Western country today (as a final exam, we still need to invade a country on the pretext that they are supporting terrorists and took over their oil fields just like USA did at Iraq, England&France did at Libya)

Please think about where will Kurdish be today if they were originally living at USA, Canada, Australia or Western Europe. Let me help you, just read the following article:

https://www.huckmag.com/art-and-cult...e-photography/

Oh yeah, the wild natives living in Turkey before the Turks arrived to bring them culture and enlightenment. I remember learning that in history.

Russia still has over a hundred languages that are still being spoken, including 35 official ones. Canada and Australia too have a rather solid relationship with their indigenous populations. And what France does (which I do dislike) should have no bearing on what Turkey does.

I mean: You're the bringers of enlightenment, remember?! Before Turks arrived and conquered the lands with nothing but their kindness, nothing existed there.

[PointOfViewGun]

That jab would have been more effective, if the two of us hadn't had a discussion recently where I debunked a claim you made repeatedly with just 2 mins of research, or if "ignoring history" wasn't in your signature.
Wanna see a magic trick children? I'll teach you how to make an entire demographic disappear.

I don't recall such an exchange. Feel free to point me towards it. However, the points you're trying to make seems to only amplify your ignorant blanket position on these issues. Turkey has a history of conducting operations in Syria and Iraq for decades. Given your claims, and the scope and size of operations conducted in Iraq in the 90s, northern Iraq have already been annexed by Turkey. That never happened.

[dogukan]

You know, your first question is easier to answer;. It is the same reason USA is trying to clear ISIS&Al-queda and Europeans are fighting against terrorism. No one of this terrorist organizations is a real threat to USA&West but still they are trying to destroy them. Are you asking them why they are doing this?

1. RAdical Islam IS a threat regardless of the motivations of western actors
2. Radical Islam is an endogenous process of Islam, more than a "reaction" to western expansionism. Muslims themselves, including the Ottomans were fighting against Islamists for a long time.

So no, not a fair comparison. The ideologized version of Islam has a goal to change the world. It is not equal to Kurds demanding recognition as a nation. One is an ideology, the other is struggle of recognition.

Now, for your second question. It has a long answer and not a pretty one. We Turkish are paying the mistakes of our grandfathers. While Western countries like USA, Canada, Australia, France, Russia civilized the native people living in their lands, our grandfathers stupidly believed that it was more important to give to those people rights, security, laws and freedom. Thus, the minorities of Ottoman Empires were never civilized, not like Native Americans, Tatars, Aborigines etc. But, we Turkish slowly learned from West since 1820s. We learned what Western values are, how to treat weaker peoples, how to settle a land, how to use international law etc. Thus, once we are starting to become powerful again (it started at 1980s), we are showing what we learned. We Turkish are almost a Western country today (as a final exam, we still need to invade a country on the pretext that they are supporting terrorists and took over their oil fields just like USA did at Iraq, England&France did at Libya)

Come on don't come to me with this.
"Civilize" ? Ottomans? Ottomans were still fighting Turkmen tribes in 19th century when minorities were opening factories all over urban locations. I am not going to bother debating over this level of revisionism of history.

If you think the Kurdish problem is an issue of "civilizing", there is no point in a rational debate here.

[dogukan]

What a delusional post. The case at hand is Turkey's desire to have a buffer zone on the Syrian border but somehow this is fueled by Turkey's desire to ethnically cleanse Kurds in Turkey to kill any chance of Kurdic autonomy. Meanwhile, PKK, YPG's parent organization, burns hectares of forest area in western Turkey. How can one try to downplay the dangers of a border area being governed by a PKK haven is beyond me. Trying to make angels out of YPG is a futile project. It wasn't long ago when YPG paraded child soldiers on the streets of Syria. They are responsible for a lot of crimes; arbitrary arrests, crushing political opposition, ethnic cleansing, etc. They're not the spawn of Satan, but they're not angels as well. It's delusional to expect Turkey to just be fine with letting YPG control the Syrian border and be a safe haven for PKK members.

Everyone knows and can see what is going on. Only the Turkish nationalists stick to the narrative they fail to sell. Only buyers of this in the world are Islamists, who frankly, do not care whether your point is right or wrong. They just want whatever serves their goal.

Yes, it is a desire to ethnically cleanse the Kurds. An action that has been on Turkish state agenda with official documents since 1930s. This is an ongoing struggle. Turkey wants to assimilate the Kurds. That is a simply strategic reality. It is not a conspiracy. It is an understandable action, it is just wrong. Why are you acting like this is a nutjob conspiracy? Countries try to assimilate minorities to prevent seperatism....

Why do the terrorist acts in Turkey mean the whole Kurdish project in Syria has to be destroyed? Can the world bomb Mecca and ban Islam because jihadis are wrecking havoc around the world?

YPG is not an angel, it is just not the evil Turkey is trying to make them to be. They are no more worse than the other actors in Syria, let alone Turkey...it is ironic because Turkey entered Afrin claming YPG was doing horrible deeds, and it's jihadis did far worse. Everything Turkey claimed PYD was doing was done in a matter of 3 months.

But there is something else here. And that is the reality that no amount of American cooperated acts to secure border will satisfy the Turkish state ideology. Turkey just wants the means to completely take over the area, destroy and burn cities as Kurds resist like in southeast Turkey in 2015 to cause population movements to change demographics.
You know this, don't deny it. I see this being said all over Turkish social media space everyday. It is also what the Turkish state wants. Most newspapers(aka government mouthpieces) voice this on their colums as well. I watch it being debated on all TV channels everyday.

This is the obvious elephant in the room. The fact of the matter is, there is no threat from across the border to Turkey at all. It would foremost be BEYOND stupid for YPG to seriously threaten Turkey from that area.
Yes, Kurds from there will go and join the PKK. They have have been doing that whether there is YPG or not. This is not a bill Turkey can make the Kurds of Syria pay, it is an issue Turkey has to solve within itself. otherwise, potentially, all Kurds are "terrorists" because at some point they might ask for independence/autonomy and can become associated with PKK. This is what happened in the last 3 years as the whole Kurdish civil society was banned and tens of thousands were removed from civil services + 10000 HDP party member jailed.

[PointOfViewGun]

Everyone knows and can see what is going on. Only the Turkish nationalists stick to the narrative they fail to sell. Only buyers of this in the world are Islamists, who frankly, do not care whether your point is right or wrong. They just want whatever serves their goal.
Yes, it is a desire to ethnically cleanse the Kurds. An action that has been on Turkish state agenda with official documents since 1930s. This is an ongoing struggle. Turkey wants to assimilate the Kurds. That is a simply strategic reality. It is not a conspiracy. It is an understandable action, it is just wrong. Why are you acting like this is a nutjob conspiracy? Countries try to assimilate minorities to prevent seperatism....
Why do the terrorist acts in Turkey mean the whole Kurdish project in Syria has to be destroyed? Can the world bomb Mecca and ban Islam because jihadis are wrecking havoc around the world?
YPG is not an angel, it is just not the evil Turkey is trying to make them to be. They are no more worse than the other actors in Syria, let alone Turkey...it is ironic because Turkey entered Afrin claming YPG was doing horrible deeds, and it's jihadis did far worse. Everything Turkey claimed PYD was doing was done in a matter of 3 months.
But there is something else here. And that is the reality that no amount of American cooperated acts to secure border will satisfy the Turkish state ideology. Turkey just wants the means to completely take over the area, destroy and burn cities as Kurds resist like in southeast Turkey in 2015 to cause population movements to change demographics.
You know this, don't deny it. I see this being said all over Turkish social media space everyday. It is also what the Turkish state wants. Most newspapers(aka government mouthpieces) voice this on their colums as well. I watch it being debated on all TV channels everyday.
This is the obvious elephant in the room. The fact of the matter is, there is no threat from across the border to Turkey at all. It would foremost be BEYOND stupid for YPG to seriously threaten Turkey from that area.
Yes, Kurds from there will go and join the PKK. They have have been doing that whether there is YPG or not. This is not a bill Turkey can make the Kurds of Syria pay, it is an issue Turkey has to solve within itself. otherwise, potentially, all Kurds are "terrorists" because at some point they might ask for independence/autonomy and can become associated with PKK. This is what happened in the last 3 years as the whole Kurdish civil society was banned and tens of thousands were removed from civil services + 10000 HDP party member jailed.

You make it abundtantly clear that you're not arguing in favor of principles, but in favor of a pissing contest. Anything YPG does, you ignore. Anything Turkey does, you highlight. Hence, you deflect when you say something illogical, or use outright straw man arguments. In order to avoid admitting any wrong doing on the part of YPG or PKK you basically try to conflate any point I make. This kind of intellectually dishonest arguments do not yield a productive conversation.

I need to make one thing clear though. Since you accuse Turkey of doing the same that YPG does. Are you saying that there are child soldiers in the Turkish army?

[dogukan]

There are child-soldiers in the Turkish-backed forces. Turkey is responsible of everything its proxies do, which includes kidnappings and ransom, burning farms, child soldiers, force converting, desecrating holy areas and cemetaries, extrajuidicial killings, enforcing Turkey's national values and religion on locals, completely disregarding the local's representation by setting up jihadi governance systems, looting, forcibly taking houses of locals, settling in different ethnic groups to change demographic structures by building TOKİ-led apartment projects...

All very well documented. PYD did not do 1% of this in the past 10 years. This was all done in a couple of 2 years in Afrin, the most stable region in all of Syria. And now it produced 300-400 000 Kurdish refugees. How else do you expect one to evaluate this?
Turkey wants to do the same in eastern Eupharates, wrecking havoc...the region is already highly stable and a lot more democratic and transparent than the regime area, let alone FSA areas.

At least the Americans can see the obvious and does not seem to back down on Turkey's ridiculous desires and demands.

[PointOfViewGun]

There are child-soldiers in the Turkish-backed forces. Turkey is responsible of everything its proxies do, which includes kidnappings and ransom, burning farms, child soldiers, force converting, desecrating holy areas and cemetaries, extrajuidicial killings, enforcing Turkey's national values and religion on locals, completely disregarding the local's representation by setting up jihadi governance systems, looting, forcibly taking houses of locals, settling in different ethnic groups to change demographic structures by building TOKİ-led apartment projects...

All very well documented. PYD did not do 1% of this in the past 10 years. This was all done in a couple of 2 years in Afrin, the most stable region in all of Syria. And now it produced 300-400 000 Kurdish refugees. How else do you expect one to evaluate this?
Turkey wants to do the same in eastern Eupharates, wrecking havoc...the region is already highly stable and a lot more democratic and transparent than the regime area, let alone FSA areas.

At least the Americans can see the obvious and does not seem to back down on Turkey's ridiculous desires and demands.

So, no child soldiers in the Turkish army despite your earlier claim. Care to show how FSA paraded its new child soldiers like YPG did?

[dogukan]

You really think world is upside down over child soldiers in a 10 year civil warzone? Literally every militia has child soldiers in the war. These are not official armies. Of course the Turkish army does not have child soldiers. Turkish army is a professional force of a NATO and UN member country....is this your reasoning for Turkey's operations?

here: http://simaviho.meb.k12.tr/icerikler...z_3118453.html
paraded child soldiers of turkish army

[PointOfViewGun]

You really think world is upside down over child soldiers in a warzone? Literally every militia has child soldiers in the war. These are not official armies. Of course the Turkish army does not have child soldiers. Turkish army is a professional force of a NATO and UN member country....is this your reasoning for Turkey's operations?
here: http://simaviho.meb.k12.tr/icerikler...z_3118453.html
paraded child soldiers of turkish army

Are you trying to deflect your reluctance to condemn or outright attempts to whitewash YPG's wrong doings with such straw man arguments? I didn't say that Turkey's operation is dependent on YPG's use of child soldiers. I made that point, among others, because you were trying to whitewash YPG. It's interesting that you had to about a century back to back up your claim that Turkey was responsible for anything YPG have done, which includes enlisting child soldiers.

[dogukan]

If you go back up and read you can see that I blamed Turkey over its proxies and backed-groups.
I also blamed Turkey over the actions in took in Syria.

I personally do not think "child-soldier" is a catastrophic sight in a place like Syrian Civil War. It is pretty common after 10 years of war and manpower diminishing in every faction.
It is horrible yes, but it part of the reality there.

[PointOfViewGun]

If you go back up and read you can see that I blamed Turkey over its proxies and backed-groups.
I also blamed Turkey over the actions in took in Syria.

I personally do not think "child-soldier" is a catastrophic sight in a place like Syrian Civil War. It is pretty common after 10 years of war and manpower diminishing in every faction.
It is horrible yes, but it part of the reality there.

Going back and reading tells me that you're merely trying to make that distinction now to save your position.

Syrian civil war started in 2011. Northern Syria in general didn't see any action till 2013. The parade I linked to where YPG showed its new child soldiers was from January 2018 which is when the fight against ISIL was mostly finished. So, not 10 years, but 5 years. Kurds in Syria are the most well-equipped and well-supported group in the country thanks to USA. YPG was parading child soldiers even when there was absolutely no reason for it. Not that it makes it OK to use them at any time.

The point here is that if you can't condemn something so obvious there is no reason why anyone would keep raising how YPG crushed political opposition, performed arbitrary executions, paraded mutilated bodies of enemy fighters in city centers, ethnically cleansed regions from Arabs, etc.

You're basically just exchanging one dogma for an other.

[Mary The Quene]

Syrian Army is storming Khan Shaykhun at the moment of speaking. The (large) town will probably fall within the next 6-12 hours. If they capture all other towns south of it will fall automatically and the Turkish observation point will be placed under siege.

It also provides a foothold for future operation in the heartland of Idleb

[Cookiegod]

What are your sources? To me it seems unlikely they'll try to tackle this city head-on so quickly, and secondly everything indicates they're instead trying to flank it and took Tal Al Nar to the north of the city.


Also: Their operations from Sukayka haven't made much progress so far due to the strong enemy counter attacks recently, so the attack would have to come from one very narrow direction with little support from its flanks.

It seems far more likely they'll keep building on their gains to the north of Khan Sheikhoun where the enemy is weak, including likely reaching the M5 highway near Moqa and thereby effectively cutting the salient off from the north.

[dogukan]

Seem Turkey is very very mad over not getting an opportunity to ravage Rojava.

Today 3 biggest municipalities that got the votes of millions of people were forcefully taken again with "terrorism" links. The decline of Turkish democracy continue over the un-solved Kurdish issue. It is more harm to Turkey than to Kurds at this point, since not much changes for them anyways...