ISIL War in Iraq and Syria II

[nhytgbvfeco2]

The same way Iraq did? Or the same way England responded to Scottish referendum?

Iraq naturally didn't want a part of it to secede. "England" (the UK) allowed Scotland to hold the referrendum and promised to respect the results regardless of what they may be, it certainly did not hold joint military drills with neighbouring states to threaten it with an invasion. Actually read up on the comparison you're making before you make it.

I doubt there would be any calls for Kurdic independence if PKK didn't exist. If there were it would be crushed by Kurds themselves as they would not want to live in such a state.

Good thing good guy Turkey is there to save the Kurds from the unimaginable prospect of living in a Kurdish state. The horrors of self-representation, am I right? Would take gassing by Saddam Hussein any day over that.

[Vanoi]

Why would I admit to lying right after I pointed out the exact thing I said you said? You did claim that.

Nope i claimed that Turkey didn't want a buffer zone at the beginning of the conflict and you agreed with me that Turkey could have intervened on its own if it wanted to Day 1. You claimed i said Turkey never wanted a buffer zone. I'm still waiting for you to quote those exact words from me.

An international force that better vetted and controlled FSA members could certainly work. It's not a complete must to have local forces either. You're trying to debate details to create defensible positions.

Yes it is. As i just said and you ignored, International forces could not cover the entire zone. Not even Turkey in 2016 tried to create a buffer zone without the help of local forces.

And as i have stated dozens of times now, the local forces were completely unreliable. The US already tried to create an anti-ISIS rebel group in which it vetted various FSA groups. Its failed. Turkey itself completely failed in creating a moderate rebel force. Thats why the TFSA is composed of Islamists and jihadist groups.

Lets watch you ignore this point now like you keep on doing.

You're once again going on a petty path by pointing at Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan when I specifically pointed at the refugee crisis Europe had. You're just trying to create stuff to debate against.

Refugee crisis involves more than just Europe and refugees made it to Europe without having to go through Turkey. Your point still falls apart. And i see you ignored my point on ISIS.

Care to provide any source where Turkey made claims about PYD before the war? Not 2016 by the way. Do not move the goalpost.

https://www.timeturk.com/tr/2012/07/...e-kolu-mu.html

Turkish source itself claims the PKK established the PKK.

Perhaps UK threatened Scotland with force since we're making stuff up.

Turkey did threaten the KRG
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7966996.html

Specifically a threat to invade Northern Iraq and cut off oil pipelines.

And, we have a wrap. You attempted to argue that YPG was not closely related to PKK, and you did it in a very weak way. Even USA commanders admit the link. Go with the blind propaganda.

The same US military commanders who adamantly say the YPG is not the PKK?

[Heathen Hammer]

Trump's plan to hand Syria back to Assad so he can go on raping and killing at his leisure sounds a lot like his plan last month to surrender to the Taliban. Hopefully this will also be stopped.

Democrats right now: "Oh, no, he wants to end a pointless and costly occupation of a foreign country, can't this madman understand that we need more wars and wars are good"?

But seriously, if it wasn't for the "war on terror" and other aspects of globalist foreign policy, they could have saved trillions and have that national healthcare that everyone likes to talk about.

[Odenat]

Care to remind us how Turkey reacted to Iraqi-Kurdistan's independence referrendum?

The same way Israel reacts to Palestinian independence? The same way Spain reacts to Catalan independence referandum? The same way England reacts to Scottish independence referandum? The same way Serbia reacts to Kosovan independence referandum? Your hypocrisy is unbelievable, if Israelis want Kurds to be independant, why don't Israel start by giving back to Palestinians their own country first? Show us the way, mighty Israel. lol

What is your point? Clan Barzani is not the collective leader of all Kurds. Just becase there is an autonomous region in another country does not mean Kurds in different countries are "bound to it". What kind of logic is that?

And you probably know it better than me how Turkey reacted to formation of KRG back in the day in 1990s. (not to mention the latest independence referandum)

What kind of logic? You are speaking as Turkey is the enemy of the Kurds while Turkey has exactly 0 proplem with North Iraq Kurds. Saying Turkey attacks Kurds while it is attacking PYD is just like saying USA attacked Muslims when it attacked ISIS. Turkey was afraid of the formation of KRG back in the day because we are afraid they will turn to terrorism. But instead, they acted like decent human beings (not like PYD) and now they are friends. As i said before, if PYD stopped terrorism, they could become our friends but no, they continue making attacks.

And now you started calling North Iraq Kurds as "Clan Barzani" and as "an autonomous region in another country". Are "North Iraq Kurds" Kurds or not? Are they Turkey's friends and allies right now or not?

If Kurds are not assimilated in time, it will lead to an eventual situation like in Iraq and Syria. That is Turkey's fear. This is not a secret.

Thank you for showing us why Kurds inside Turkey must be "integrated" to the society. lol. Which country in the world accepts to end like Syria or Iraq?

Tell me Dogukan, if there were 70 million Kurds and 10 million Turks in Anatolia and Turks were making terror attacks against Kurd civilians, selling drugs, making deals with USA, what would happen to us? Tell us how you Kurds would treat us then?

[dogukan]

The question that you quoted the answer to? The question you're asking about where you try to avoid addressing PKK's latest roadside bomb that killed 7 civilians only to blame them, which included teenagers, for being counter-guerrilla fighters?

Why am I supposed to reply to refer to PKK attack in SE again? Those are regular occurances.
I do not avoid the reality of pkk attacks, I was referring to recent attacks outside the pkk area of operations because you brought them up as an excuse.

And PKK did not own or endorse the forest fires.
Pkk is not responsible for every kurd that radicalizes as a result of turkeys repression of basic human rights.

Nor the ypg and the kurds deserve to be destroyed as a result of pkk s actions.

That the pkk killed civillians does not change the fact that kurds are a repressed minority that are often subjected to state violance and injustice.

[Coughdrop addict]

Democrats right now: "Oh, no, he wants to end a pointless and costly occupation of a foreign country, can't this madman understand that we need more wars and wars are good"?

But seriously, if it wasn't for the "war on terror" and other aspects of globalist foreign policy, they could have saved trillions and have that national healthcare that everyone likes to talk about.

No, having a presence in the region to keep a genocide from happening isn't pointless unless one has absolutely no regard for human life. Not to mention anywhere the US withdraws is quickly filled by Russia or China. As they carve up the world between themselves, Trump seems determined to reduce the US to utter irrelevance.

[dogukan]

The same way Israel reacts to Palestinian independence? The same way Spain reacts to Catalan independence referandum? The same way England reacts to Scottish independence referandum? The same way Serbia reacts to Kosovan independence referandum? Your hypocrisy is unbelievable, if Israelis want Kurds to be independant, why don't Israel start by giving back to Palestinians their own country first? Show us the way, mighty Israel. lol

Even the “evil” Israel recognizes their arab minority officially and have given rights accordingly.

Catalonia and basques are HIGHLY autonomous and self-governing.

Scotland is also literally a country of its own and is extremely autonomous. Thry also did their independent referandum and UK watched. No one died.

Your argument here literally proves your position wrong.

* Turkey had tons of problems with Iraqi kurds and only stopped having problems when KRG was recognized as an official entity and swore not to meddle in Kurds in Turkey. After USA strong armed them into existance of course.
The moment KRG had any form of independent movement, Turkey showed its true color.
Of course turkey doesnt hate kurds because kurds are kurds. You seriously think that is what is being argued here?

Pyd is not comparable to AQ/ISIS in any way( ignoring the fact that turkey is backing jihadi ideology in Syria)
And existance of PYD does not give turkey to right to invade kurdish enclaves and do population engineering. That is still a crime and we are constantly being humiliated in the eyes of the world for insisting on it.
Just in the past 2 days, Kurds got even more popular tham ever before as a result of turkeys evilness and trumps impulsivity. And Turkey and turkish people still refuse to learn

PYD never did anything terroristic. That they are ideologically affiliated does not mean PYD wants to terrorize anybody.
Pyd had been willing to talk to turkey for years. Terrorist do not want to talk. It is turkey that does not want to talk because as people keep saying on TVs, it would “legitimize a kurdish corridor”, aka, Kurds would have offial recognition which scares turkey. Pyd did everything in its power including retreating from borders and letting turks-americans have full control.
As akp advisors keep saying, NOTHING SHORT OF FULL INVASON AND RESETTLING OF ARABS is enough for Turkey. Thats the real terrorism here. Invading a stable prospering region and risking millions for the sake of fascism.

That is evil. That is imperialism. That is what makes Turkey the bad guy. Turkey does not want to talk, turkey wants to finish off any chance of a kurdish official entity because of its fascist nationalism.

Why do you keep talking about north iraq as if turkey supported it? Turkey wanted to end KRG too but Americans enforced it. Existance of KRG does not mean turkey can repress and invade other kurds.

Turkey will end up like iraq or syria if it does not democratize. It is already a highly divided country and the kurdish issue keeps polarizing and making it more authoritarian. Countries that insist on repression and turn on its citizens tend to explode at some point.

I have been here for a decade. I am not a Kurd. I am a Turk.
Yes I would support Turks if they were a minority in Kurdistan.
In fact I still support all the minorities that live under or side by side with kurds.
In rojava I back turkmen, circassian and assyrian autonomy. I also support xinkiang and tibet against China.
I also support catalans, basquea or indigenous people in Latin America. I support the serb in kosovo and the kosovar in serbia.

Unlike you, this is a principle for me.
I am not a nationalist of any group. Dont think I see the world the same way you do.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

The same way Israel reacts to Palestinian independence? The same way Spain reacts to Catalan independence referandum? The same way England reacts to Scottish independence referandum? The same way Serbia reacts to Kosovan independence referandum? Your hypocrisy is unbelievable, if Israelis want Kurds to be independant, why don't Israel start by giving back to Palestinians their own country first? Show us the way, mighty Israel. lol

Israel gave parts of palestine autonomy and self rule, and completely withdrew from Gaza. Catalonia also has autonomy. England allowed the Scottish referrendum and promised to respect the result, at least bother to research what you're talking about instead of looking even more ignorant.

Also, what kind of logic is that? If Turks want palestine to be free, why don't you start by freeing Kurdistan, hypocties? Show us the way, mighty Turan.
Kurds as a people have existed far longer than the concept of a palestinian people, and have been in the region before Turks invaded Anatolia. Clearly it should be their turn first?

Another thing. All your examples are of countries x(example, Kosovo) attempting to secede from country y(Serbia). But Iraqi Kurdistan isn't attempting to secede from Turkey, is it now? so none of your examples fit. Let's try it this way: Did France threaten to invade Catalonia if it secedes from Spain? Did Egypt threaten to invade palestine? Did Bosnia threaten to invade Kosovo? Did Ireland threaten to invade Scotland?

[PointOfViewGun]

Iraq naturally didn't want a part of it to secede. "England" (the UK) allowed Scotland to hold the referrendum and promised to respect the results regardless of what they may be, it certainly did not hold joint military drills with neighbouring states to threaten it with an invasion. Actually read up on the comparison you're making before you make it.
Good thing good guy Turkey is there to save the Kurds from the unimaginable prospect of living in a Kurdish state. The horrors of self-representation, am I right? Would take gassing by Saddam Hussein any day over that.

I love how Iraq not wanting a part of it to secede is a natural thing but for Turkey its a must. Turkey didn't stop the Northern Iraqi referendum from happening as well, though I largely had the Catalonian referendum in mind when I mentioned the Scottish one. I apologize for that.

Back in 2002 when PKK was forced to stop fighting. As fighting declined in the region government oppression declined as well and economic investment increased. After the Iraqi invasion and PKK gaining a safe haven in Northern Iraq changed the dynamics. So, PKK being out of the picture comes with a number of consequences. It's just real politics. Kurds are better of in a peaceful Turkey then they would be if they formed a state.

Nope i claimed that Turkey didn't want a buffer zone at the beginning of the conflict and you agreed with me that Turkey could have intervened on its own if it wanted to Day 1. You claimed i said Turkey never wanted a buffer zone. I'm still waiting for you to quote those exact words from me.

Sigh... Yes, that's what I claimed you said. Are you confused about your own words?

Yes it is. As i just said and you ignored, International forces could not cover the entire zone. Not even Turkey in 2016 tried to create a buffer zone without the help of local forces.
And as i have stated dozens of times now, the local forces were completely unreliable. The US already tried to create an anti-ISIS rebel group in which it vetted various FSA groups. Its failed. Turkey itself completely failed in creating a moderate rebel force. Thats why the TFSA is composed of Islamists and jihadist groups.
Lets watch you ignore this point now like you keep on doing.

I will ignore it alright since its your tangent to muddy up the waters and argue for arguments sake.

Refugee crisis involves more than just Europe and refugees made it to Europe without having to go through Turkey. Your point still falls apart. And i see you ignored my point on ISIS.

I was still referring to the crisis in Europe. You can't really change the scope of what people say to argue against them, especially when they're explicit about it.

https://www.timeturk.com/tr/2012/07/...e-kolu-mu.html
Turkish source itself claims the PKK established the PKK.

That's a link to an article FROM 2012 on think thank organization members talking about how PYD was set up by PKK. Your claim was about Turkey, aka the government, consistently arguing about how PYD is PKK before the war, aka 2011.

Turkey did threaten the KRG
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7966996.html
Specifically a threat to invade Northern Iraq and cut off oil pipelines.

A direct threat was made concerning buying oil. Turkey never threatened to invade Iraq. Invasion threats are only used when PKK's presence in Kandil is concerned.

The same US military commanders who adamantly say the YPG is not the PKK?

Here is the former minister of defense from USA.

Why am I supposed to reply to refer to PKK attack in SE again? Those are regular occurances.
I do not avoid the reality of pkk attacks, I was referring to recent attacks outside the pkk area of operations because you brought them up as an excuse.
And PKK did not own or endorse the forest fires.
Pkk is not responsible for every kurd that radicalizes as a result of turkeys repression of basic human rights.
Nor the ypg and the kurds deserve to be destroyed as a result of pkk s actions.
That the pkk killed civillians does not change the fact that kurds are a repressed minority that are often subjected to state violance and injustice.

Why you need to address PKK attacks on civilians in a conversation about how PKK and YPG are the same? So that we have a baseline on where you stand on such issues. It tells us whether your quest for independence and human rights is based on partisanship or principle.

[dogukan]

Turkey also kills civillian but the international community does not erase turkish cities and ethnically cleanse turks...

Pkk is not an excuse to repress kurds.
According to your kogic, there is no end to the “pkk” ties we can male with kurds to delegitimize everything they do.

Also, you are seriously saying that Kurds are better off in Turkey and therefore there is no need for them to have a say in it.
Do you realize how that sounds?

You realize that whether that premise is true or not, it is oır kurds to decide.
We are not talking about the custody of a 1 year old...


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

[PointOfViewGun]

Turkey also kills civillian but the international community does not erase turkish cities and ethnically cleanse turks...
Pkk is not an excuse to repress kurds.
According to your kogic, there is no end to the “pkk” ties we can male with kurds to delegitimize everything they do.
Also, you are seriously saying that Kurds are better off in Turkey and therefore there is no need for them to have a say in it.
Do you realize how that sounds?
You realize that whether that premise is true or not, it is oır kurds to decide.
We are not talking about the custody of a 1 year old...

When someone tells you how the group you try to represent as angels are not as you make them to be your response shouldn't be others do it too. Plus, you need to type your sentences in comprehensible ways for us to understand, and please do not distort what others say. No, at no point did I say that there is no need for Kurds to have a say in how they're governed. What I said was that Kurds would prefer to stick with Turkey instead of forming a new state in a case where PKK no longer exists and relations with the Kurdic citizens was normalized . Even if such a state was formed, realistically, it would be half empty the month after as most of them would fled to neighboring countries, mostly Turkey. You're the one talking about treating Kurds as children. Perhaps a Freudian slip is in play.

[Exarch]

Russian FM Lavrov is getting the Kurds to link up with Assad and together, will defeat the Ottomans.

About effing time i say; the turks have been getting too big for their boots and need to be taught a lesson.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Eh, if it weren’t for the Kurdish issue, I wouldn’t mind a resurgence of the “Ottomans.” With fossil fuels becoming less economically vital over time, the stability of a dominant power in Asia Minor could help mitigate the global threat of Islamic terror. As a bridge between east and west, expanded Turkish hegemony could check Russian and Chinese ambitions in the region while the West scales back and turns attention to Asia. Considering Iran is a theocracy that employs terrorism as a foreign policy tool, the more ecumenical legacy of the “Ottomans” would be a desirable alternative.


Wishful thinking, I know. Here’s hoping the Turks are both successful and also don’t massacre the Kurds.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I love how Iraq not wanting a part of it to secede is a natural thing but for Turkey its a must. Turkey didn't stop the Northern Iraqi referendum from happening as well, though I largely had the Catalonian referendum in mind when I mentioned the Scottish one. I apologize for that.

It's natural, as in understandable, but that doesn't make it okay. It's also quite natural for Turkey to not want a part of it to secede, but that doesn't make it right either.
Turkey didn't stop the Iraqi Kurdistan referendum because it was happening in a foreign country, one that Turkey has no business intervening in. Still threatened to invade and held joint military drills with Iran of all countries to send a clear message to the KRG. Imagine if France threatened to invade Catalonia over the referendum in Spain.

Back in 2002 when PKK was forced to stop fighting. As fighting declined in the region government oppression declined as well and economic investment increased. After the Iraqi invasion and PKK gaining a safe haven in Northern Iraq changed the dynamics. So, PKK being out of the picture comes with a number of consequences. It's just real politics. Kurds are better of in a peaceful Turkey then they would be if they formed a state.

Your argument can be applied to palestine, but for some reason I don't think you'd accept the logic of " So, Hamas being out of the picture comes with a number of consequences. It's just real politics. palestinians are better of in a peaceful Israel then they would be if they formed a state. ".
Your argument is the same one used by European imperialists to colonise Africa, the poor savage Kurd doesn't know what's good for him, he needs the enlightening light of Turkish civilisation to show him the way, whether or not he agrees with it.

[Papay]

Well the invasion has begun and if Turkey manages to enforce this buffer zone, the result will suck for the Kurds. They will loose all important Kurdish cities on the border and they will control only the ruins of cities like Raqqah

[Copperknickers II]

Well the invasion has begun and if Turkey manages to enforce this buffer zone, the result will suck for the Kurds. They will loose all important Kurdish cities on the border and they will control only the ruins of cities like Raqqah

The Kurds and the Turks are both important allies of the West. I am totally unable to interpret the actions of Trump. Where there are conflicts between your allies, shouldn't you smooth them over rather than stoke them? I guess selling out the Kurds seemed like an easy way to curry favour with Erdogan with minimal consequences? Well I am rather nonplussed by the logic behind that, considering as we speak Raqqah is under attack by ISIS. I won't be at all surprised if we see thousands of ISIS fighters freed from jail and once again ruling territory. Everything now depends on the decisions taken in Damascus and Moscow.

[Papay]

The Kurds and the Turks are both important allies of the West. I am totally unable to interpret the actions of Trump. Where there are conflicts between your allies, shouldn't you smooth them over rather than stoke them? I guess selling out the Kurds seemed like an easy way to curry favour with Erdogan with minimal consequences? Well I am rather nonplussed by the logic behind that, considering as we speak Raqqah is under attack by ISIS. I won't be at all surprised if we see thousands of ISIS fighters freed from jail and once again ruling territory. Everything now depends on the decisions taken in Damascus and Moscow.

Obama administration has huge responsibility for what is going on today. First they said that they wont let Kurds go west of euphrates(they broke their promise). Secondly they tried to overthrow erdogan with a coup(which failed). If the relations between Turkey and USA have worsened, its primarily Obama's fault. Trump tries to revive these relations by making some steps back. Ultimately you cannot enforce an independent Kurdistan when noone in the area wants it.

[caratacus]

Countries which do not respect borders and undertake armed incursions are normaly roundly condemned by the UN security council and its member states.

U.N. Security Council to discuss Syria on Thursday after Turkey takes military action - diplomats
https://uk.reuters.com/article/syria...-idUKL2N26U0T3
UNITED NATIONS, Oct 9 (Reuters) - The United Nations Security Council will meet on Syria behind closed-doors on Thursday, diplomats said, after Turkey launched a military operation against Kurdish fighters in the northeast of the country. The discussion of the situation in Syria by the 15-member Security Council was requested by the five European members, Britain, France, Germany, Belgium and Poland, diplomats said.Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan, announcing the start of the military action on Wednesday, said the aim was to eliminate what he called a “terror corridor” on Turkey’s southern border

. It will be interesting to see how the US, Russia and China react tomorrow. As Turkey is a NATO member, then wouldn't this mean that an attack upon their forces would need a response from the other member states. Perhaps using air strikes against the Kurds. hmmm....

[Tureuki]

The pace needs to be hasty, if the ground invasion begins before Kurds start effective negotations with Assad or the US senate makes a move, there will be bloodshed, if no support is secured, they will most likely retreat, they simply cannot put up a fight without air support in those major settlements which are right next to the Turkish border.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's natural, as in understandable, but that doesn't make it okay. It's also quite natural for Turkey to not want a part of it to secede, but that doesn't make it right either.
Turkey didn't stop the Iraqi Kurdistan referendum because it was happening in a foreign country, one that Turkey has no business intervening in. Still threatened to invade and held joint military drills with Iran of all countries to send a clear message to the KRG. Imagine if France threatened to invade Catalonia over the referendum in Spain.

Your argument can be applied to palestine, but for some reason I don't think you'd accept the logic of " So, Hamas being out of the picture comes with a number of consequences. It's just real politics. palestinians are better of in a peaceful Israel then they would be if they formed a state. ".
Your argument is the same one used by European imperialists to colonise Africa, the poor savage Kurd doesn't know what's good for him, he needs the enlightening light of Turkish civilisation to show him the way, whether or not he agrees with it.

Turkey didn't threaten Iraq with an invasion, nor it invaded after the referendum was held. If Catalonia was a major source of terrorism for France I'm sure their take on such a referendum would be quite different.

The case of Palestine is hardly similar to the case of Kurds in Turkey. It's an absurd parallel to use. Let me know when Israel can even come close to having a Kurdic president even if he was assimilated like hell. What I pointed out is the logical outcome and already the reality. There are likely more Kurds in Istanbul than there are in the region. They're there because they can have a better life. Even those in the region know how dependent they are on the other provinces of Turkey. It's just the reality on the ground.

The Kurds and the Turks are both important allies of the West. I am totally unable to interpret the actions of Trump. Where there are conflicts between your allies, shouldn't you smooth them over rather than stoke them? I guess selling out the Kurds seemed like an easy way to curry favour with Erdogan with minimal consequences? Well I am rather nonplussed by the logic behind that, considering as we speak Raqqah is under attack by ISIS. I won't be at all surprised if we see thousands of ISIS fighters freed from jail and once again ruling territory. Everything now depends on the decisions taken in Damascus and Moscow.

When one of those allies is created and run by an organization you yourself deem to be a terrorist organization having those allies doesn't make sense. For the sake of substance though, how will jails that hold ISIL fighters be of any concern?