Byzantine Roster Discussion

[Iskar]

Copied from this discussion in the workshop.

Since the new unit is now basically your work, too, would you be fine with it if I made it available to WeekendGeneral for his BC submod?

(Context: I dabbled in mesh editing to create a medium tier javelin unit for the Romanoi, jurcek helped me make it actually work. Now we're discussing whether the addition to the roster would actually be sensible or what else the roster might need.)

[jurcek1987]

Of course. And I wouldn't call it work, took like 20 seconds . But isn't this unit too similar to menaulatoi? For ERE I'd add some heavier archers (mourtatoi)

[Iskar]

From what I gathered the mod wants to reflect the lack of specialised archer units in the Komnenan army and makes explicit reference to the prevalence of javelin troops, hence why I wanted to insert a medium javelin unit between the light Peltasts and the heavy Menavlatoi. I set the medium javelineers up with "light_spear" attribute and lower defense values than the Menavlatoi, so they are more of a general line unit that does not compete with the Menavlatoi for being specifically anti-cav.

[jurcek1987]

I read a comment it was done for balancing purposes. It's true that Romans lacked decent native archers but mourtatoi are Christianized Turks.

Your changes make sense but then it might be better to give them swords as secondaries. And as I'm a fussy person I have to point out that these medium javelins are actually heavier than menualtoi, they have mail or lamellar armour while menaulatoi only have leather or light lamellar

[Iskar]

I considered swords, but I read that the Peltastoi explicitly fought with spears mainly. Maybe one could swap the models, so the Peltastoi use the leather armour currently used by the Menavlatoi and vice versa, making the Menavlatoi the heavier unit. Then again, one could also leave the Peltastoi as they are and give the Menavlatoi a speed bonus, properly reflecting their lighter armour, while the Peltastoi serve as line troops alongside the Skutatoi and Spathatoi (that have the same lamellar armour). It is conceivable that the Peltastoi had similar equipment as the other rank and file troops. Higher tier does not always imply better/heavier armour, especially not when the unit in question are skirmishers.

I read about the Mourtatoi, but they seem to not have been mentioned before the 14th century, so they might be somewhat ahistorical. I also actually like the tactical side of a faction that has to rely mostly on javelineers and merc archers rather than having the usual jack of all trades top tier roster. Also, Mourtatoi would be top tier, Palace guard units, if anything, so they would not help remedy the ranged gap the ERE roster currently has in mid tier.

If I were an actual modeler/3d artist I'd venture to create a genuine model for the medium javelineers, of course, but that is frankly beyond my capabilities.

(I hope I am not being too defensive here. I greatly appreciate your input )

[jurcek1987]

Oh I always like to debate my beloved Romans . Hmm I definitely remember reading about mourtatoi and also turkopoles during Manuel's time. They are mentioned both as regular archers (like in CBUR) and also as palace guards (like in Tsardoms). But it doesn't matter much, I also like factions that have handicaps which the player has to overcome.

I'm a modeller and I can try and make some models for you if you like

[Iskar]

Hmm, since most archers seem to have been drafted from christianised non-Greeks, one could introduce a medium tier archer unit for the Romans available only in Turkish recruitment areas, called "Turkopol Archer Auxiliary". Another possibility would be Gasmuli Crossbowmen recruitable in mediterranean ports, though I do not know whether they were prevalent at that time.

PS: Would you mind if I move the last few posts of this discussion to the BC subforum? Our discussion here is not really related to "Skins, Models and Animations" anymore.

[jurcek1987]

Hmm, since most archers seem to have been drafted from christianised non-Greeks, one could introduce a medium tier archer unit for the Romans available only in Turkish recruitment areas, called "Turkopol Archer Auxiliary". Another possibility would be Gasmuli Crossbowmen recruitable in mediterranean ports, though I do not know whether they were prevalent at that time.

Both are good ideas yes but I also don't know if Gasmuli existed in 1174. How many unit slots are left?
And on an unrelated matter, I'd rather see more traditional lance/mace kataphraktoi than the current javelin/spear version and please make Varangian Guard 2h axemen because it looks bizarre watching them swing those large axes with only one hand.

[jurcek1987]

Go ahead

[Iskar]

I think there already is a two handed Varangian unit which is available only on Thrace as mercenaries for the Romans, reflecting that they were rather hired than recruited.

Don't the Pronoiarioi cavalrymen basically serve as such lance/mace cataphracts?


Gasmuli were indeed not that prevalent in the given timeframe, so I'd rather go with auxiliary archers.

WeekendGeneral or vsivak may be better informed as to how many units we could still add.

[jurcek1987]

Yeah there are varangian mercenaries and pelekyphoroi and they're both wrong.

Yes that would mean they would be similarly equipped than pronoiars but it would be better in my opinion. And they wouldn't fulfil the same role, pronoiars are more western style chargers rather than the cataphracts of old which are brawlers (slow charge, wedge formation).

I checked EDU and (if it's the latest one) there are 9 empty slots left so you better use them wisely

Oh and this is a small thing but I always find it odd why kataphraktoi ride full cataphract horses while the bodyguards only use half cataphract ones. Even their text says they are chosen among the best kataphraktoi.

[Iskar]

So there is not much room left, although, if we just want to add some aor archer unit and medium Roman javs we should be fine. I do not know whether anyone wanted to flesh out the planned Alani faction, though. One can save one further slot, as currently there are separate merc and aor units for "Kypchak Tribal Cavalry", which can be merged. We could even merge the Pelekyphoroi and Varangoi mercs to one properly equipped Varangoi unit.

The Roman bodyguards should be easily replacable and one could replace the strategically not very useful Kavallarioi (weaker than Kataphraktoi/Pronoiarioi, but similarly low availability with no added tactical functions) with "proper" lance/mace cataphracts.

[WeekendGeneral]

Wow, thanks for taking the time on working to improve the submod. Adding units for the most part is completely beyond me I am already very much out of my depth modding and feel for the most part that I am stumbling around blindly in the dark. Thus I unfortunately can provide limited assistance when it comes to providing answers however I will answer what I can.

I don't plan on including the Alani faction however their units can (or at least will soon be) be recruited by the Georgian player a few turns into the campaign in an effort to represent the alliance/union of Queen Tamar and David. Additionally I plan to enable all christian factions owning Alani to produce them. If possible I would like to keep these units but they are not essential.

Currently debating about including garrison script that incorporates the destroy_units command if it is will need some unit spaces for each culture.

Could the Armenian Auxialry mercenary unit be made recruitable in order to fufill the AOR archer unit?

I am not an expert on the ERE my knowledge of the era is largely around the great Seljuk empire and as such is happy to see improvements/changes to the ERE roster. I do agree with many of the suggestions above, the ERE can definitely be improved. However I would prefer that any changes made do not overly enhance their strength on the campaign. I realize that ERE and KOJ are both fan favorites and as such many enjoy adding to them. At the moment both factions have strong rosters compared to many of their peers. For me part of the appeal of this mod has been the Islamic focus I fear further improved Romans or Crusaders runs the risk of losing that focus as these factions dominate the map this is especially a shame as both ERE and KOJ are so well represented in other mods.

[Lifthrasir]

Copied from the workshop original thread:

Check this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...faction-thread
You might find some interesting infos

[k/t]

Fixed Pelekyphoroi and lance/mace cataphracts are available in my submod. Hmm, at least I think the Pelekyphoroi models were fixed.

[jurcek1987]

Oh yes I know, Varangian mercenaries as well

[AnthoniusII]

I am sorry if this will be considered as "necroposting" but I have to state a few things.
After 1080 and the vast diarming of the proffesional units of Roman Armies that incappable Emperors afraid of , the army still rellied in proffesionals-70% mercenaries and 30% native troops- plus armed millitias that were poorly equipted and with low morale thanks to lack of training. If an accurate Roman Roster is the aim you must create some sub lines of each kind of the roster.
1: Millitias
Totaly unarmored with one possible armor upgrade in few cases (mostly horsemen). Having a horse which was an expensive investment by its self it ment that you could afford a decent armor too that was cheaper than the horse.
Such millitias could be.
Archers
Javelin men
Spearmen
Javelin horsemen
Spear horsemen
NO HORSE ARCHERS
Nattive proffesionals:
Because BC has no separation of "capital" and non capital units like TGC mod we can still separate the proffesionals in to following categories.
2: Proffesionals
Ellite Imperial
Ellite Provincial (castle recruiting maybe)?
Provincial troops
a) Ellite Imperial
A unit like Spatharioi that BC already had.
General's bodyguard.
Varangian Guard (despite the fact that they could also be mercenaries as well).
Arcontopulla:
Consept:

Watch that despite this guy is still a "cataphract" he is lighter armored that 10th century cataphracts. Also his horse.
b) Ellite Provincial
Pronoiarii
Turcopulla (horse archers of Turkic origin that were Orthodox Christians and recieved lands for service payment). Their armor could start from chain mail and expand to lammelar or scale cuirasses.
Pronoiarii had squires like western knights but it would be a luxury to have similar unit with the ones that will follow.
c) Provincial proffesionals
Stratiotae (armored horsemen)
Scutatoi (you can have two kinds -sword/spear) but i would prefer the spear version to show the lack of capable melee fight troops and the necesity of such mercenary units.
NO PIKEMEN
Peltastae (heavy armored javelin men) Armors a combination of padded and leather armors and upgrade of short chain mail.
Gasmouloi (despite their origin they are children of permanent inhabitands of the empire)/Crossbowmen.
Mercenaries:
Mercenaries can be devided by those that "permantly" recruited as part of the bulk of the army and those that recruited when extra need is required.
1: Permanent Mercenaries that actually are part of the army.
Latinikon (a gathering of Norman,Hungarian etc knights). Many of them have armor upgrades based on long lammelar or scale cuirasses like Normans of south Italy did.
Scithicon (a gathering of Magyars or Turkic , Pecheneg and Alan) horsemen (mostly horsearchers that were extincted in Roman army in that period/exept Turcopulla).
Alamani (German and Austrian knights). Their foot version can be the melee unit the roster needs despertly side by side with Varangian Guard.
2: Ocasional mercenaries.
Armenian nobles (lancers)
Armenian axemen
Georgian Nobles
Georgian infantry
Vikingar (free lancer Vikings that do not join Varangian guard and they are lighter armored than them).
Turkic horse archers.
Later Venetian Galeys
Genua heavy crossbowmen
Serbian heavy spearmen (like those that participated in 1186 battle of Sirmion against Hungarians and Austrians).
CAUTION :
All mercenaries must be expensive to get and with HUGE upkeep cost.

[jurcek1987]

Very insightful but keep in mind that BC does not have armour upgrades