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  1. #1
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default The Royal Army's Training Battle

    On one crisp May day in 1474, the Royal Army prepared for one of their biggest training exercises: the mock battle. They would be organized into two fairly even sides, with four 900-strong commanderies to each (save for the 1000-strong Capital Commandery). For today's matchup, the sides are such:

    Team 1
    Capital Commandery
    1st Company:
    Commander: Thomas Bourchier, Baron Conington
    Uniform: Red cap with blue feather, red-and-blue coif or red-and-blue hood; red-and-blue tunic; blue hose

    100 (1x) Men-at-Arms - 8000 (upkeep: 3500)
    200 (2x) Heavy Footmen - 10000 (upkeep: 3000)
    300 (3x) Yeoman Archers - 18000 (upkeep: 6000)
    300 (3x) Advanced Handgunners - 28500 (upkeep: 9975)
    100 (1x) Mounted Gunners - 22800 (upkeep: 6650)
    4 (1x) Howitzers - 17100 (upkeep: 8550)
    4 (1x) Culverins - 13300 (upkeep: 6650)

    Total cost: 100,045 (117,700 - 24000 (-15% total bonus from 3x Arsenals (Cambridge, Devon, Norfolk) opened))
    Annual upkeep: 44,325

    Western Commandery
    1st Company:
    Commander: John de Courtenay, Viscount Courtenay
    Uniform: Blue cap with yellow feather, blue coif or blue hood; blue tunic; yellow hose

    100 (1x) Men-at-Arms
    200 (2x) Heavy Footmen
    300 (3x) Yeoman Archers
    300 (3x) Advanced Handgunners
    4 (1x) Falconets
    8 (1x) Murderers

    Total cost: 68,552 (80,650 - 15%)
    Annual upkeep: 30,550

    Midlands Commandery
    1st Company:
    Commander: Anthony Woodville, 2nd Earl Rivers
    Uniform: Red cap with white feather, red coif or red hood; white tunic; red hose

    100 (1x) Men-at-Arms
    200 (2x) Heavy Footmen
    300 (3x) Yeoman Archers
    300 (3x) Advanced Handgunners
    4 (1x) Culverins
    4 (1x) Falconets - 9500 (upkeep: 4750)

    Total cost: 70,167 (82,550 - 15%)
    Annual upkeep: 33,875

    Welsh Commandery
    1st Company:
    Commander: Roger Kyriell, Earl of Monmouth
    Uniform: Red cap with yellow feather, red coif or red hood; red tunic; yellow hose

    100 (1x) Men-at-Arms
    200 (2x) Heavy Footmen
    300 (3x) Yeoman Archers
    300 (3x) Advanced Handgunners
    4 (1x) Falconets
    8 (1x) Murderers

    Total cost: 68,552 (80,650 - 15%)
    Annual upkeep: 30,550

    Total strength:
    400 men at arms
    800 heavy foot
    1200 yeoman archers
    1200 Advanced handgunners
    100 mounted gunners
    4 howitzers
    8 culverins
    12 falconets
    16 murderers
    ---
    3,700 men
    40 guns

    Team 2
    Southeastern Commandery
    1st Company:
    Commander: Anthony Neville, 2nd Marquess of Somerset
    Uniform: White cap with red feather, white coif or white hood; red tunic; white hose

    100 (1x) Men-at-Arms
    200 (2x) Heavy Footmen
    300 (3x) Yeoman Archers
    300 (3x) Advanced Handgunners
    4 (1x) Howitzers
    4 (1x) Culverins

    Total cost: 80,665 (94,900 - 15%)
    Annual upkeep: 37,675

    East Anglia Commandery
    1st Company:
    Commander: Thomas Howard
    Uniform: Dark blue cap with white feather, dark blue coif or dark blue hood; white tunic; dark blue hose

    100 (1x) Men-at-Arms
    200 (2x) Heavy Footmen
    300 (3x) Yeoman Archers
    300 (3x) Advanced Handgunners
    4 (1x) Howitzers
    8 (1x) Murderers - 6650 (upkeep: 3325)

    Total cost: 75,012 (88,250 - 15%)
    Annual upkeep: 31,200

    Northern Commandery
    1st Company:
    Commander: John Neville, Marquess of Montagu
    Uniform: White cap with orange feather, orange coif or orange hood; orange tunic; white hose

    100 (1x) Men-at-Arms
    200 (2x) Heavy Footmen
    300 (3x) Yeoman Archers
    300 (3x) Advanced Handgunners
    4 (1x) Culverins
    8 (1x) Murderers

    Total cost: 71,782 (84,450 - 15%)
    Annual upkeep: 32,450

    Continental Commandery
    1st Company:
    Commander: John Wenlock, 3rd Viscount Wenlock
    Uniform: Blue cap with red feather, blue coif or blue hood; blue tunic; red hose

    100 (1x) Men-at-Arms
    200 (2x) Heavy Footmen
    300 (3x) Yeoman Archers
    300 (3x) Advanced Handgunners
    4 (1x) Culverins
    4 (1x) Falconets

    Total cost: 70,167 (82,550 - 15%)
    Annual upkeep: 33,875

    Total strength:
    400 men at arms
    800 heavy foot
    1200 yeoman archers
    1200 Advanced handgunners
    8 howitzers
    8 culverins
    4 falconets
    8 murderers
    ---
    3,600 men
    28 guns

    OOC: This will be a testing ground for Ponti's new battle rules, so we can determine if any adjustments need to be made and where.
    Last edited by Barry Goldwater; December 20, 2016 at 08:56 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Before I even start rolling, some initial thoughts:

    1. So the main difference looks to be that 3/4 of the unit types are dedicated to lobbing missiles at the enemy as opposed to closing as infantry. The main question is why aren't we differentiating between the units other than a meticulous (and somewhat random) set of +x bonus against this certain type of unit instead of accounting for (1) maximum effective range of the missile units (2) volleys per certain amount of time? IN terms of spending time rolling phases instead of lining up (tediously in the case of battle orders 'this unit type attacks this unit type') certain unit types against one another, why don't we just lump things into more easily organized phases based upon the maximum and minimum effective range of certain unit types. There will be overlap but I don't see this as overly complicating things.

    2. What are howitzers, culverins, falconets and murderers? How are they distinguished? I can't find descriptions in the barracks thread.

    3. With unit type limitations per character, did the rules factor in that with so many characters in a game now we could or would end up with an overwleming majority of unit types in an army coming from those unit types that were supposed to be limited?

    4. Is this battle set up typical of engagements in the game so far? (see question 3 as well)

    5. I'm tempted to treat "Commanderys'" as I would treat a Legion with upgrades and bonuses grafted on, which is to say that each Commandery comprises one indivisible unit which takes on other indivisible units, potentially two versus one or more in some instances. Is this preferable?

    ---------------------------

    Please provide (1) An order and arrangement of units/commaderys in the army (from left to right flank dispositions) and (2) battle orders for each side (and Commandery) based upon the following terrain prompt (300 word limit to battle orders)

    Terrain:
    A field in Kent that looks substantially similar to this from the vantage point of Team 1.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; December 19, 2016 at 10:02 AM.

  3. #3
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Good point. The late medieval English army was very heavily missile-oriented (the army that won Agincourt was like 5/6ths archers), which we took into account while constructing the royal army (hence why cavalry + infantry combined only make up 1/3rd of each company). The whole 'points vs X unit' thing is a relic of BF's battle system from way back in the beginning of the game I believe, which we stopped using entirely after the introductory battles months ago - I reused the GoT calc for the only other major battle fought since then (Wallingford, 10 weeks ago) and we've had no other battles or wars (which actually had battles, that one Scottish incursion doesn't count) until now, so I suppose it just got left there in limbo.

    I agree that it'd probably be simplest to assign missile units a maximum effective range, and perhaps a general bonus to rolls to firing on enemy units in that range to reflect their ability to fire in volleys and/or penetrating power. (ex. militia archers have an effective range of, say, 200 m and no point bonuses, yeomen have an effective range of 400 m and a +1 to their attack rolls, gunners have an effective range of 80 m and +2 to their rolls, and mounted gunners have the same range but a +3 instead)

    As for lumping things into more organized phases...can you elaborate further?

    Edit: Blugh, I wrote all of this before seeing your edits lol. Disregard for the most part
    Last edited by Barry Goldwater; December 19, 2016 at 12:34 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Goldwater View Post
    I agree that it'd probably be simplest to assign missile units a maximum effective range, and perhaps a general bonus to rolls to firing on enemy units in that range to reflect their ability to fire in volleys and/or penetrating power. (ex. militia archers have an effective range of, say, 200 m and no point bonuses, yeomen have an effective range of 400 m and a +1 to their attack rolls, gunners have an effective range of 80 m and +2 to their rolls, and mounted gunners have the same range but a +3 instead)
    I'd prefer that really, but something even more simple than that. Units will have an effective range and anyone firing out of en effective range has a -10. But also I think it would be important to assign rates of fire as well. Hand gunners would have a lower rate of fire than bow units, probably. Though sadly there's probably no way to reflect relative effectiveness other than raw point bonuses. But here's my question: Historically, were hand gunners somehow was more effective than longbows at this point? Were they decisive in battles? I have a feeling people have just stacked them because of the bonuses in the rules as opposed to any other reason. I am questioning the foundational presumption that gunpowder >>> everything else.

  5. #5
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    The basis behind the mounted gunners is a shortened barrel so it can be used on horseback. The Carbine would have drastically shorter range than an actual caliver.

    Also Ponti, howitzers, murderers, falconets and culverins are our field guns.

  6. #6
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    To answer the points which Skylord hasn't addressed:

    3. Nope, I don't think so. Those limitations are another relic of our 1st ruleset, put there to prevent people from building armies with huge numbers of bombards & gunners. Turns out that it's fairly realistic for armies to have large numbers of varying field guns (the French at Castillon, 1453 had 300 cannons, though most of them were light pieces).

    4. What do you mean? As in, would other armies look like these ones? In that case, not really. In the English-on-English battles we've had there were far fewer handgunners and cannons lying around (their place would be taken by archers), the army that's fighting now is a reformed standing army with a large gunpowder component & an emphasis on combined arms modeled after the Burgundian ordonnance forces. Foreign armies had different fighting styles as well: the Scots and Swiss rely on massed pike formations, and the French have a very strong heavy cavalry (gendarme) component.

    5. That could certainly make things simpler, but it'd be a feature limited to the royal army I think. The non-standing feudal armies of the other nobles wouldn't share the organizational structure or gunpowder component of the royal army for example, and as mentioned above, foreign nations' armies are organized & will fight differently compared to what we have.

    Also, the cannon types were described here. This proposal passed a long while ago, it just doesn't seem to have been included in the main rules thread (much like our other proposals which passed, IIRC...).
    Last edited by Barry Goldwater; December 19, 2016 at 12:44 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Also Ponti, howitzers, murderers, falconets and culverins are our field guns.
    So there's no practical difference, just different words for the same thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Goldwater View Post
    To answer the points which Skylord hasn't addressed:
    4. What do you mean? As in, would other armies look like these ones? In that case, not really. In the English-on-English battles we've had there were far fewer handgunners and cannons lying around (their place would be taken by archers), the army that's fighting now is a reformed standing army with a large gunpowder component & an emphasis on combined arms modeled after the Burgundian ordonnance forces. Foreign armies had different fighting styles as well: the Scots and Swiss rely on massed pike formations, and the French have a very strong heavy cavalry (gendarme) component.
    So while our setting might be 1473, for practical purposes of thinking about these rulesets it looks more like 1550-1750? That's sort of what I'm beginning to understand

  8. #8
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    1) Falconets and Culverins describe a similar type of cannon - cast field guns - in differing sizes.

    2) A murderer is simply a swivel gun. They're deployed with the infantry in the battle line.

    3) A howitzer lobs its round in a high but short arc. The purpose being to break up enemy formations. That's where the original term "Houfner" came from.

    And for the hundredth and last ing time. All of this artillery was used before and at this point in history. There is nothing from the future. Venetians used shells first in the 1360s. Fused shells came into being and were first used in 1421. Howitzers were first used in the 1420s. The French used Culverins in the HYW. Murderers were invented in the 14th Century.

    Artillery is widely used at this point. Historically England didn't have much gunpowder weaponry at this point - but as you so often point out, this is an rp and the sky is the limit. Barry rped to get master founders from Burgundy - a nation famous for its modern artillery atm - in order to build the infrastructure to make cannon. Historical England may not have used much gunpowder in 1474, this England does.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mad Skylord View Post
    Artillery is widely used at this point. Historically England didn't have much gunpowder weaponry at this point - but as you so often point out, this is an rp and the sky is the limit. Barry rped to get master founders from Burgundy - a nation famous for its modern artillery atm - in order to build the infrastructure to make cannon. Historical England may not have used much gunpowder in 1474, this England does.
    I don't have any prejudice against gunpowder units existing and being used. The implementation of it in the game was awful. The way gunpoweder units were introduced makes them absolutely impossible to account for in battles, indeed, this game doesn't even have battle rules so basically units were introduced haphazardly, randomly, and without any other consideration besides "we would like gunpowder units to be able to do x." Without any consideration whatsoever as to how to make that actually work in battle calculations and with a broken battle system, would you prefer that gunpowder units remain a purely RP element with no feasible way to impact a fair battle? Do we want just RP battles with scripted outcomes, whoever brings the most gunpowder wins?

    I've not been here long, but without battle rules I don't see how much longer this game can last.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; December 20, 2016 at 09:09 AM.

  10. #10
    Dirty Chai's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    3. With unit type limitations per character, did the rules factor in that with so many characters in a game now we could or would end up with an overwleming majority of unit types in an army coming from those unit types that were supposed to be limited?

    4. Is this battle set up typical of engagements in the game so far? (see question 3 as well)

    5. I'm tempted to treat "Commanderys'" as I would treat a Legion with upgrades and bonuses grafted on, which is to say that each Commandery comprises one indivisible unit which takes on other indivisible units, potentially two versus one or more in some instances. Is this preferable?
    Only the royal army is organized this way. It's just a bureaucratic organization method by geographic region of garrison.

    If you must have us align into larger unit sizes, it would be the "battle" or "ward, usually three of them. This was used in the Hundred Years War - three curved formations, each with men-at-arms (infantry) on foot in the middle, and each having archers forming wings on the flanks of the three battles/wards. There was also a reserve of course.

    Here's my primary source: "Armies of the Middles Ages, Volume 1: The Hundred Years' War, the War of the Roses, and the Burgundian Wars, 1300-1487" by Ian Heath. I can share the PDF with you, but I'll just quote the relevant sections for now. There's quite a bit of information here and I hope it'll help you envision a battle system. I'll just cover the English sections for now, but I can also cover the French sections (etc) as well if you want to know how they'd work into the battle rules - or I can just give you the PDF too..

    Organization

    The armies fielded in this conflict differed little in organization from those that had served in the Hundred Years' War. However, the civil wars brought about a revival in the use of town and county militias, particularly on the part of the Lancastrians. Examples are the proclamations of 1460 that 'every man be ready in his best array'; of 1463 for the raising by the Nevilles of 'all lieges and subjects'; of 1465 for every man between 16-60 years in 16 counties to be ready to serve Edward IV at a day's notice, 'well and defensibly arrayed'; of 1469 for the array of 'all lieges and subjects' of the dukes of Suffolk and Norfolk and Earl Rivers, and so on. By 1470 Lancastrian summonses were directed at all 'manner of men', invoking the death-penalty on draft-dodgers (for instance, Warwick in 1471 raised militia troops 'on payne of deathe'). A 1468 commission of array specifies that such troops were to be in companies of 1,000 divided into hundreds and twenties. They appear to have normally attached themselves to the leading local magnate of whichever faction they supported, even though it may have been the rival faction that had originally summoned them - for example, 120 men raised by the city of Norwich for Henry VI in 1461 actually joined the Duke of Norfolk's Yorkist forces instead. Indeed, it was not unusual for demands for troops to be made on the same place by both sides!

    The larger part of militia troops inevitably were archers (though on foot rather than mounted), even in the towns, which during the 14th century had contained far fewer archers than the rural hundreds. The availability of the militia on such a grand scale therefore meant that the ratio of archers to men-at-arms in armies of the Wars of the Roses was considerably higher than during the Hundred Years' War era, being as high as 8:1 on occasion; Edward IV's 1475 expedition to France, for instance, though an indentured army, comprised 10,173 archers to 1,278 men-at-arms. The towns, incidentally, fielded far fewer men for the wars than did the counties. Though York sent 400 men to aid the Lancastrians at Wakefield and Second St Albans and sent 1,000 to Towton, the city provided Richard III with only 80 in 1485. Norwich, likewise one of the kingdom's largest cities, raised only 600 men in 1467 and 120 in 1461. Salisbury provided Edward IV with only 14 men in 1471, and King's Lynn provided only 6 in 1469.

    Despite the large numbers of militia raised and fielded by both sides, the nucleus of each army remained the retainers and indentured troops of the king, nobility, and gentry - their 'household men and fee'd men' as one contemporary puts it. The nobility still had their retinues of fief-holding knights and esquires (now generally retained by life-contracts) and served whichever faction they were tied to by blood, kin, or allegiance, customaril receiving pay and rewards (or the promise of them) in exchange. Summonses usually specified that such men should bring 'as many men as they could', these normally being raised from the estates within their spheres of influence, reinforced by local militia levies. William Lord Hastings thereby raised 3,000 men for Edward IV in 1471, as did the Stanleys for Richard III (though they failed to support him) in 1485. The Earl of Oxford led 800 of his own men at Barnet, while even a simple knight, the Yorkist Robert Ogle, fielded a remarkable 600 'men of the Marches' at First St. Albans.

    Finally, some foreign auxiliaries were provided by France and Burgundy at various times, in particular contingents of handgunners. The most significant contributions of foreign troops were the 2,000 Frenchmen in Henry Tudor's army in 1485 paid for 4 months by Charles VIII and commanded by Philibert de Chandee, and the 1,500-2,000 German and Swiss mercenaries under Martin Schwarz in Lincoln's army at Stoke Field.
    Tactics
    Hundred Years' War (abridged for relevancy)
    There can be no doubt of the fact that England's successes in the Hundred Years' War were attributable almost solely to the combination of longbowmen and dismounted men-at-arms that she field on almost every occasion, a combination which had evolved from experience gained in the field in actions against the Scots during the early decades of the 14th century. Bannockburn and similar encounters had taught them the uselessness of cavalry when confronted by determined, close-order, spear-armed infantry, and soon they began to emulate the Scottish practice of dismounting their men-at-arms. The same bitter experiences also taught them to appreciate and fully utilize the devastating power of the longbow, which led in turn to the evolution of the characteristic English battle formation, of dismounted men-at-arms between forward-angled bodies of archers, that was was employed for the entire duration of the war.

    Geoffrey le Baker's chronicle, written 1357-60, includes the observation that the English had been mostly accustomed to fighting on foot, imitating the Scots, ever since Stirling' (by which he means Bannockburn), and despite a contradictory statement elsewhere in his work that Halidon Hill was the 'first battle where the English men-at-arms fought on foot, in conscious imitation of the Scots', it is clear that the English had begun to dismount by the 1320's at the latest; the Lanercost chronicler says that the practice began in 1322, at Boroughbridge, while Froissart records of Edward III's 1327 expedition that, encountering the Scots, the English were ordered to dismount and take off their spurs, and drew up in 3 battles'. That, once dismounted, they drew up in close array, tighter than that of the French, is evident from remarks in contemporary sources, such as Froissart, who says of the English formation at the minor engagement of Nogent-sur-Seine (1359) that 'they kept so closely together that they could not be broken'; similarly, at the the Combat of the Thirty the Anglo-Bretons fought shoulder to shoulder so tightly that the French were unable to separate them. As for the depth of their formation, at Agincourt they drew up 4-deep, but presumably where more men were available deeper formations might be utilized.

    .....cavalry were thereafter [after Poitiers] little used in battle in France or England, though they finally underwent something of a revival in the 15th century, largely brought about, it has been argued, by the adopt of the arret de cuirasse [it is a place in your armor to rest your lance butt]; this gave the lance greater rigidity on impact, thereby imparting greater penetration, which was necessary to counter the heavier armor being worn for protection against arrow-fire. Regardless, however, of whether or not they remained in the saddle once they reached the battlefield, heavy cavalry remained the nucleus of most European armies throughout this period.

    As already stated, English men-at-arms drew up in bodies of archers positioned on their flanks. This formation seems to have been first employed at Dupplin Muir in 1332 and proved such as success that it was once repeated at Halidon Hill the next year, but with the significant difference that instead of there being just one such body the army was instead divided into 3 divisions (the traditional 3 'battles' of all medieval armies), each with its own forward-angled flanking archers so that when drawn up side by side wedges of archers were established, as can be seen in the diagrams below:


    This was the formation used virtually unchanged thereafter for the duration of the war. It was usually drawn up before or between woods or hedgerows so that it was difficult for horsemen to attack from the flank or rear, and occasionally small holes were dug to the front as a further defensive measure, another trick probably learnt from the Scots. Baker says that Crecy the English 'dug a large number of pits in the ground near their front line, each a food deep and a foot wide, so that if the French cavalry approached, their horses would stumble in the pits'. This same precaution was still being employed even in the war's closing stages, being utilized, for example, at Formigny in 1450.

    The word 'herce' which appears on the diagrams was one used by contemporary chroniclers to describe the wedge-shaped formation of English archers - Froissart uses it, for instance, to describe their array at Crey. Its derivation is uncertain, and though it is generally thought to have been named after the continental harrow another possible derivation is the from the French hericion, meaning a bristly fence or hedgehog. The wedge-like form of the herce of archers is confirmed by a French chronicle, which describes the archers at Crecy as drawn up 'in the shape of a shield'.... The particular advantages of this formation, of course, were that (a) attacking troops, with their heads down in the face of the arrow storm, tended to veer away from the archers and were thus channeled towards the waiting men-at-arms, and (b) it enabled the archers to enfilade the enemy as he approached and engaged the said men-at-arms - Geoffrey le Baker specifically says that by being placed on the wings of each battle the archers 'did not hinder the men-at-arms, nor did they meet the enemy head-on, but could catch them in the crossfire.' This also allowed a reasonable amount of flexibility. To quote J.E. Morris: 'The archers are not to be regarded as animated dummies; they could spread out in lines parallel to their men-at-arms, gall the enemy as he approached, or by their galling volleys compel him to approach, and then fall back into their wedge-like formation as his charge was pressed home.' A continuous, concentrated hail of arrows could therefore be laid down.

    The range and rate of fire of the longbow are points on which few authorities seem to entirely agree. However it seems probably that its maximum range with the lightest possible type of arrow was around 300 yards (Shakespeare, in 'King Henry IV, part II', records 280-290 yards as a notable feat) and its effective range around 200 yards, though in a trial carried out in 1550 an arrow was actually shot through an inch thick seasoned timber at about 250 yards. Modern tests indicate that a 100 lb bow could have fired a bodkin (armour-piercing) arrow some 240 yards, and a heavier broadhead arrow about 200, though these ranges could be increased by the use of heavier bows or lighter arrows. This was nevertheless well short of a crossbow's range - 15th century sources give 210 yards as effective crossbow range, and 370-380 yards as maximum range - but the real advantage of the longbow was not its range but rather its rate of fire. Robert Hardy, a noted expert on the longbow as well as a fine actor, states in his book 'Longbow' that it is quite possible to fire 15 'reasonably aimed arrows' in a minute, while in the mid-19th century Prince Louis Napoleon was of the opinion that an archer who, having fired 12 shots in a minute, once missed his target, 'was very lightly esteemed.' Certainly it is possible to fire 6 individually aimed arrows within a minute, and this is the rate of fire that most authorities have settled on, though Hardy prefers 10 and Fowler, in 'The Age of Plantagenet and Valois', says 10-12. The crossbow, by comparison, could fire only one or two shots per minuted because of the length of time involved in reloading. The latter figure actually tallies with the estimate of the Italian chronicler Giovanni Villani if we accept 6 arrows per minute as being the longbow's rate of fire, for he says that longbows could fire 3 arrows for each one crossbow bolt. Froissart says only that 'archers are much more rapid in shooting than crossbowmen.' At such high rates of fire the longbowman's ammunition would not last very long, of course (he normally entered battle with a minimum of one or two sheaves - 24 or 48 arrows - though probably a hundred or so per archer were available if we include those carried in the baggage train, which were undoubtedly issued prior to battle); at Hardy's rate of 10 arrows a minute even a hundred would soon be used up. However, it is unlikely that a prolonged barrage was very often called for. The Monk of Malmesbury tells us that 'after the third or fourth, or at very most the sixth, draw of the bows men knew which side would win', which implies that it took between 3-6 volleys to break a charge. Arrows could also be retrieved between charges, as they were at Poitiers where, Baker tells us, after the defeat of the first two French battles the archers 'hastened to pull their arrows out of wretches who were still half-alive'.

    Such was the maelstrom into which the French resolutely hurled their attacks, at first on horseback, later on both horse and foot. At Crecy their cavalry reputedly charged the English line as many as 15 or 16 times amid a storm of arrows 'flying in the air as thick as snow, with a terrible noise, much like a tempestuous wind preceding a tempest, they did leave no unarmored part of man or horse unstricken'. Indeed, such concentrated fire wreaked terrible execution among unarmored horses... Yet despite such experiences the French continued to retain at least some of their men-at-arms mounted in battle, normally as wings ahead of the vanguard, for the set purpose of flanks. At Agincourt, for instance, some 2,300 mounted men-at-arms were detailed for this task, thought few survived to charge home (the 800 on the left were whittled down to 140 before they closed). Those at Poitiers, 'ordered to attack the archers at the beginning of the battle', fared somewhat better, being mounted on armored horses which 'offered the archers as a target only their forequarters, which were well protected by steel plates and leather shields, so that the arrows aimed at them either shattered or glanced heavenwards, falling on friend and foe alike.' (The Earl of Oxford, observing the ineffectiveness of his fire, led his archers out to one side and ordered them to aim at the horses' unprotected hindquarters which, thus wounding them, caused them to throw their riders and stampede off through their own ranks, wreaking 'not a little slaughter among their masters.') Despite such disasters, however, it is clear that this tactic could sometimes be successful as, for example, at Mauron in 1352. As late as 1434 Christine de Pisan, in her 'Fays d'armes et de Chevalerie', still records that 'a troop of men-at-arms should remain mounted to disorganize the enemy's formation.'

    The English, in fact, still deemed such cavalry detachments enough of a threat during the Agincourt campaign in 1415 to introduce an extra defensive measure, ordaining that each archer henceforth carry with him a stake. This was to be 6 feet long and sharpened at both ends; in battle each man was to 'fix his before him in front, and those who were behind him, other stakes intermediately, one end being fixed in the ground towards them and the other sloping towards the enemy, higher than a man's waist from the ground'. The resultant barricade proved it worth in the ensuing engagement, where several of those few cavalry who survived the arrow storm were impaled on the stakes (we know that at least 3 horses were brought down this way; this was exceptional since usually a horse will refuse to gallop at such an obviously dangerous obstacle). Thereafter English archers were always equipped with such stakes on campaign, and before long the French and Burgundians were copying them. Commynes mentions the Burgundians using stakes at Montl'hery in 1465, for example, implying that they had probably done so since 1435 at the latest, and probably since 1423. The French were probably somewhat slower, but were certainly occasionally using stakes by 1449 at the latest.

    Once the enemy had actually closed the archers would cease fire and instead get stuck-in with hand weapons. The Sire de St Remy, who fought for the English at Agincourt, records how there the archers 'quitted their stakes, threw down their bows and arrows and, seizing their swords, axes and other weapons, sallied out upon them, and ... killed and disabled the French'. Baker, describing the Battle of Poitiers, gives a good account of the closing moments of a French advance: 'Flying spears cascaded from polished shields, their points finding their mark like thunderbolts. Then the threatening mob of crossbowmen darkened the sky with a dense mist of bolts, and the archers replied with a hail of arrows from the English side, who were now in a state of desperate fury. Ashwood javelins flew through the air to greet the enemy at a distance, and the dense troops of the French army, protecting their bodies with joined shields, turned their faces away from the missiles. So the archers emptied their quivers in vain, but, armed with swords and shields, they attacked the heavily-armored enemy'.

    An ordinance issued by the English before Cravant in 1423 ordered that in battle horsemen were to dismount on pain of death, and their horses were to be left half a league (about 1.5 miles) to the rear on pain of confiscation of any horse found nearer than the prescribed distance.

    [French experimenting tactics, trying to counter the English tactics, cavalry detachments etc]

    Another tactical measure experimented with by the French at much the same date was the adoption by their infantry of large shields called pavises: Froissart describes how at Nogent-sur-Seine such infantry 'broke through the line of archers and flung them in disorder; for their shields were so strong the arrows made no impression on them.' Similarly, we are told that at the Battle of Cocherel (1364) the archers 'shot fiercely together, but the Frenchmen were so well armed and so strongly pavised that they took but little hurt... and so entered in among the English and Navarrese', and again at Auray 'the English archers shot well, but their arrows hurt not, as the French were well armed and shielded from them'.

    [now some information on Genoese crossbowmen, how they were on the ultimate flanks of French armies, how French armies drew up in columns instead of the English lines.]

    Christine de Pisan records that it was the usual practice of 15th century French armies to draw up in 3 battles, of which the first had men-at-arms in the centre and 'all manner of shooters... as well gunners as crossbowmen and archers' on the flanks. A Burgundian ordinance of 1417 similarly advised that 'all the archers and crossbowmen... should be mustered under 2 small standards in 2 wings in front of the vanguard.'

    [some information, supported by Christine de Pisan and records of Agincourt, about how larger armies are harder to control, harder to retreat, and how smaller armies are much more efficient. It goes on to point out that the French fielded no more armies in excess of 10,00 men from about 1430 until the latter part of the century]

    All in all it was therefore the English who retained the morale ascendancy, from the 1340's right up until the coming of Joan of Arc in 1429, prior to whom, as the Comte de Dunois himself admitted, '200 English would put to flight 800 or 1,000 Frenchmen'.
    War of the Roses
    Although tactics in the War of the Roses in many ways resembled those of the Hundred Years' War, particularly in the earlier years of the conflict when many leading captains were veterans of the wars in France, there were a number of distinct differences, not least of which was the increased artillery. In the period up to 1460 this was often employed in conjunction with strongly entrenched field-fortifications - for example, at Ludford Bridge in 1459 the Earl of Salisbury dug 'a great deep ditch and fortified it with guns, carts, and stakes', and at Northampton Henry VI's army had 'great ditches... dug around the field to the river banks, which enclose the whole army.' The decline in the use of the such entrenchments thereafter appears to have resulted from both the improved adaptability of guns for field use and a preference for mobility over a policy of static defense.

    Armies were customarily divided into 3 battles or 'wards', but one development was that the vanguard was now frequently enlarged and was often committed to battle well ahead of the main body. It usually contained the greater part of the army's archers, and battle almost invariably commenced with an exhance of fire between the longbowmen of the opposing forces. However, since archers were available to both sides their fire was consequently far less decisive than it had been against the French, unless one side happened to achieve a local superiority in their numbers as the Lancastrians did at Edgecote and the Yorkists did at Tewkesbury. It was nevertheless still the combination of archery and 'hand strokes' between opposing bodies of dismounted men-at-arms that decided a battle, it still being customary for the English to fight on foot. Dominic Mancini, a visitor to England in 1482-83, observed that the English used their horses not to fight from, but just to transport them to the battlefield. 'On reaching the field of battle the horses are abandoned, and they all fight together under the same condition so that no-one should hold any hope of flight.' Commynes says that Edward IV won 9 battles 'all of which were fought on foot'. However, it is clear from other sources that some men-at-arms were often retained mounted in battle, more often on a wing but sometimes with the main body, and were employed either against the enemy's own cavalry wing (as at Towton, where Edward IV's were chased from the field by the Lancastrian cavalry early in the battle), or against the enemy's flank once his dismounted troops were fully committed, as by Warwick at Barnet and by Richard III at Bosworth. Some, for instance those at Barnet, were 'light' cavalry such as are described under figure 127.


    Soldiers and their Equipment (you really should read this too, and it has pics I screened just for you)

    122.
    English Man-at-Arms c.1453 This figure is based on the famous latten effigy of Richard Beauchamp KG, Earl of Warwick (d.1439), made between 1451-53, which depicts in meticulous detail a Milanese-style armor of the mid-15th century, probably copied from a product of the renowned armorer Thomaso Missaglia's worskshop. The assorted straps and buckles used in attaching the various pieces of armor are all faithfuly reproduced in this effigy, as is the fluting of the plates themselves. The pauldron and couter on the left are considerably larger than those on the right, and the right pauldron is shaped to accomodate the couched lance. Other details to note are the mail skirt of his arming doublet under the fauld, the strap securing his plackart to his upper breastplate, the side armet or a sallet and mentoniere would have normally replaced this on active service. However such crested helmets are nevertheless shown in battle scenes in the later 'Pageant', which depicts armor basically identical to that shown here, but they can probably be put down to artistic license.
    123.
    English Men-at-Arms 1473 Armour of the 30 years of conflict known as the Wars of the Roses remained basically indentical to that worn by the last figure, differing only in detail.

    This figure is from the brass of Sir John Say, though the armet and wrapper are added from another source. Over his armor he wears a tabard, in this instance tied by tapes at the sides, bearing his arms which are party per pale azure and gules, 3 chevrons or, each charged with an humette countercharged of the field. Sor John was a Yorkist and wears the Yorkist livery collar of sunbursts and roses (Lancastrians wore similar livery collars bearing an 'SS' motif). Note that the sword is here worn in front, a position in which it is often depicted after c.1460; the hilt, with swollen grip and curved quillons, is characteristic of this date. The onlu other features worthy of notice are the arming points securing his couters, and the large wings of his poleyns which were sometimes fitted with a spike that was presumably used to gall an opponent's horse in a cavalry melee.
    124, 125, & 126.
    English Archers, Wars of the Roses The longbow was not as decisive in these wars as it had been in France since, being present in roughly equal numbers on both sides, its effects tended to be cancelled out. It was nevertheless responsible for the large numbers of casualties in most battles and remained the English foot-soldier's characteristic weapon. Of the figures depicted here 124 is a lancastrian of c.1480 from Ricart's 'Mayor's Calendar of Bristol' and 125 is a Yorkist from a French or Flemish ms. illustration depicting the Battle of Tewkesbury (1471). The latter wears a white rose embroidered in outline on his pink doublet, the white rose being just one (though the most popular) of many Yorkist badges. Men from Canterbury sent to join the garrison of Calais in 1470 similarly wore red jackets with white roses sewn on. Interestingly the Lancastrian red rose was apparently only used by Henry VII, and seemingly was not used at all under Henry VI.

    Unlike the last 2 figures, whose only defense is a helmet (with a mail coif in the case of 124), figure 126 wears quite substantial armor, comprising a sallet, mail haubergeon and a jack laced down the front. Charles Ffoulkes describes the latter as 'stuffed and wadded or composed of plates of metal or horn laced together with string between layers of leather or linen'. This is probably the same as the 'doublet of defense' or 'doublet of fence' often referred to in the sources, described in 1462-71 accounts of John Howard, Duke of Norfolk, as being of 18 folds of white fustian and 4 folds of linen. 'They say', observed and Italian visitor to England in 1482, 'that the softer they are the better they withstand blows; besides which in summer they are lighter and in winter more useful than iron.' In fact the militia equipment of the Wars of the Roses period most commonly referred to in the sources comprised jack, sallet, and bow and arrows exactly as here. Other details to note are the buckler hanging from his sword-hilt and the horn or leather bracer on his left forearm. Other illustrations in the source he is taken from (John Rous' 'Pageant') make it clear that the buckler could be convex or concave.

    Most of the archers fielded in the Wars of the Roses' armies were foot-soldiers rather than mounted men as in the Hundred Years' War.


    127.
    Currour c.1485 This figure, again from John Rous' 'Pageant', is one of the scourers ('scurrers' or 'currours', also called aforeriders or prickers) much in evidence in contemporary written accounts of the Wars of the Roses. Lighter-armored than the conventional man-at-arms but similarly armed, these fulfilled a variety of roles such as scouting, skirmishing ahead of the army, maintaining contact between that army's separate columns, and protecting the flanks of those on foot, both on the march and in battle. Rous' pictures show many such horsemen in a mixture of armor, some wearing breast and back plates but no arm-harness, others having long mail sleeves or no haubergeon at all under the jack. However, leg-harness and open helmets seem to be invariably worn.
    128.
    English Billman c.1485 Billmen began to appear in quantity in English armies as a recognized troop-type from the mid-15th century, one of their early appearances being at Formigny in 1450, and although they soon fell out of favor on the Continent they remained in use in England in large numbers until the late-16th century. At the close of our period some 25% of infantry raised in England were billmen or halberdiers, the balance still being archers. The figure illustrated is from the same source as the last.
    129.
    Handgunner c.1470 Although the longbow inevitably retained its pride of place during the Wars of the Roses there are a substantial number of references to handguns being used, though admittedly largely in the hands of foreign mercenaries. There were 500 Burgundian handgunners ('Burgundenses') in Warwick's army at Second St. Albans in 1461, for example, though the wind and snow snuffed their matches and dampened their powder, and many of their guns apparently backfired, killing 18 of them. A contemporary tells us that these guns could shoot both lead pellets and arrows an ell in length with 3 feathers in the middle, 3 more at the end, and a heavy iron head. (It is probably such handguns that are intended by the reference to 24 'quarrel gunnes' purchased by Henry IV as early as 1400.) Warwick's Burgundian mercenaries also included petardiers, men who threw earthenware pots of 'wylde fyre' into the enemy's ranks. Similar firepots are recorded being used by the French at Harfleur in 1415.

    When Edward IV landed at Ravenspur in 1471 following his brief exile his forces included 300 Flemish handgunners supplied by his brother-in-law Charles the Bold of Burgundy, and his entry into London a few weeks later saw his army headed by 500 'smokie gunners' (doubtless a reference to their smouldering matches). Later Henry Tudor hired some French handgunners for his victorious campaign of 1485, and at Stoke Field in 1487 the Earl of Lincoln's forces included 2,000 German mercenaries of whom many were handgunners.

    The gunner actually pictured here comes from a 'Chroniques d'Angleterre' ms. made for Edward IV c.1470. He wears a blue padded tunic with yellow embroidery, over a mail haubergeon and a red undershirt. His gun is little more than an iron tube with no apparent trigger mechanism, despite the fact that shaped gunstocks and serpentine triggers were by now in fairly widespread use throughout Europe.


    130.English Trumpeter 1475


    Artillery Artillery was used in virtually every siege during the Wars of the Roses, and in the field at First St Albans (1455), Ludford Bridge (1459), Northampton (1460), Edgecote (1469), Barnet and Tewkesbury (1471), Bosworth (1485) and Stoke Field (1487). Some handgunners seem to have been as or nearly as heavily armored as men-at-arms, and an artilleryman in John Rous' 'Pageant' of c.1485 is wearing armor like that of figure 127.

    A Burgundian source of the 1470's says that a large bombard required 24 horses to draw it, a courtaut 8 horses, a medium sized serpentine or a mortar 4 horses and even a small serpentine 2 horses. In 1453 the Duke of Burgundy had to get a 17-foot bombard weighing 7,764 lbs from Mons to Lille, which involved strengthening every bridge en route with iron supports. When at one point this monster slid into a ditch it took two whole days to get it back on to the road. It is therefore easy to understand why guns and ammunition were frequently transported by river instead, as they were by the English in Normandy and Gascony in the 1420's and by the Burgundians in Flanders in 1453.

    Finally it should be noted that the older types of artillery, the trebuchet and the ballista, continued to be used alongside guns until the 15th century. ... we find the Byzantines using Trebuchets during the final siege of Constantinople in 1453, while the Ottomans were still using 'slinges' against Rhodes in 1480.

    Guns on Ships
    It would seem that the French were employing guns shipboard from the very beginning of the Hundred Years' War, a Norman fleet assembled in 1338 including at least one pot de fer and quarrels. A long-accepted theory that English ships were carrying breech-loading brass and iron ribaudequins the same year is now known to be false, but certainly guns were used by both French and English ships only a few years later at Sluys (1340), where at least one English ship is known to have been sunk by gunfire. At first very few guns were carried per ship, the largest French vessels at Sluys carrying only 4 each, but before long a considerable number might be carried. One warship built on Jean de Vienne's orders in 1377 was armed with as many as 34 guns, and most larger ships of the 15th century carried a similar number. Spanish ships too were carrying guns by 1359 at the latest.

    The Venetians only first put cannon their ships in 1379 during the Fourth Geonese War (the War of Chioggia) when they mounted guns in the forecastles of their galleys and also on smaller long-boats used for fighting in the shallows. Genoese galleys started carrying guns soon afterwards; Froissart, describing the Genoese fleet's arival off Mahdiya in 1390, relates how 'they sent in first their light vessels called brigandines, well furnished with artillery; they entered into the haven, and after them came the armed galleys and the other ships of the fleet in good order.' The practice of mounting one large gun at the prow of galleys remained the norm for the rest of this period, with smaller guns being mounted round the forecastle and sterncastle in the 15th century. Some of the biggest galleys, those with 4 oars to a bench, had in addition some larger guns mounted in the side of the hull.
    Artillery in Battle
    The invention of gunpowder and subsequent introduction of the gun in the first half of the 14th century added a brand new dimension to warfare.

    Early field artillery was customarily positioned either directly in front of an army or on its flanks. Examples of these forms of deployment are to be found respectively at Ludford Bridge in 1459, where the Yorkists had 'their carts with guns set before their battles', and at Agincourt in 1415 where, so Thomas Elmham records, the French had 'certain saxivora or guns, which might disperse the English when about to fight, placed along the flanks of the army'. Christine de Pisan says that the artillerymen 'drew up with the crossbowmen and archers', which - as we have seen - means on the flanks or in front. The obvious disadvantage of placing one's artillery to the front of the army, of course, was that it could find itself somewhat exposed, and it was not unusual for it to be charged and taken after its first discharge simply because reloading took and inordinate length of time. In fact on many occasions guns would be taken and retaken during a battle, perhaps several times, as, for example, at Formigny in 1450. One means of preventing this was to accompany the heavier guns by smaller or multi-barreled pieces designed to keep the enemy at bay while the former were laboriously reloaded. Le Jouvencal, for instance, says: 'When your bombards have begun to fire, make sure the veuglaires and light artillery fire as much as possible after each shot'. As an indication of how low the rates of fire of the heavier pieces actually were, Hussite guns at the siege of Karlstyn fired only 7 times a day, though one could fire 30 times, and though this was not under battlefield conditions, where higher rates of fire were undoubtedly attempted, it is noteworthy that at the siege of Saaz in 1421 one gun that fired 70 times in a full 24 hours (i.e. at least one shot about every 20 minutes) was considered extraordinary by contemporaries.

    Such low rates of fire, combined with a relatively short range (less than that of a crossbow in 1347, though reaching 2,500 paces by as early as 1429), severely restricted the effectiveness of field artillery during the period under review, and we rarely read of many men actually being killed by artillery in contemporary accounts. At St Jacob-en-Birs in 1444, for example, only about 200 men were killed by the Dauphin's guns (though admittedly this represented nearly 15% of the Swiss losses), while at Morat Charles the Bold's guns killed just 250 men in the Swiss Vorhut. At Nancy, where they had been sighted too high, his guns actually killed only one - presumably tall - man!

    Other disadvantages of early artillery were their inability to fire during a damp weather (at Northampton, we are told, 'the king's ordnance could not be shot, there was so great a rain that day') and their notorious inclination to fracture in service, blowing themselves and their gunners to kingdom come. At the siege of Cherbourg by the French in 1450 as many as 3 bombards and a cannon burst in this way.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Who wants to command each side?

  12. #12
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    I can command either team, though if I had to choose one I guess I'd have to lean to Team 1 since that's the only side with one of my characters. Heck, I'm willing to command both teams if absolutely nobody else wants to do it.

  13. #13
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Sure. I'll do it. Barry and I were partners in it. So I'll do the other half.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Please provide (1) An order and arrangement of units/commaderys in the army (from left to right flank dispositions) and (2) battle orders for each side (and Commandery) based upon the following terrain prompt (300 word limit to battle orders)

    Terrain:
    A field in Kent that looks substantially similar to this from the vantage point of Team 1.

  15. #15
    The Mad Skylord's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    I'll take Team 2 then.

  16. #16
    Barry Goldwater's Avatar Mr. Conservative
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    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Orders for Team 1 sent, let me know if anything needs clarification or shortening.

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Royal Army's Training Battle

    Phase 1 – Team 1’s right flank and team 2’s left flank

    Team 1 advanced while team 2 took a mostly defensive position. Team 1 organized into advancing squares arranged in columns, fanning out to engage a single flank of the enemy line first, and the left flank trailing behind, with a strong center.

    Both teams seem to have taken no account either of the range of their own projectiles, that of their opponent, or the rate of fire their men could sustain. What followed could only be described as chaotic slaughter as the formations of both sides began to erode under withering fire.

    Team 1's advance faltered as the Midlands and Welsh Commanderys lumbered into bowshot. Team 2 quickly exhausted its supply of arrows under withering fire upon team 1. 420 casualties (spread equally among all unit types in the Commanderies) results, reducing their firepower by -1. Team 1’s left flank, although it took heavy casualties, now unleashed upon Team 2’s left flank with bows, inflicting 330 casualties and reducing it’s firepower by -2.
    Now the gunners for these respective flanks engaged on equal terms. Both gunners unleashed their volleys but it soon became clear under devastating firepower that Team 1 would overcome Team 2. The entire right flank began to collapse in a bloody rout. Team 2’s left flank is reduced in strength by 85% across all unit types. Team 1 takes an additional 200 casualties for a total of 550 spread evenly across all unit types of the respective commanderys.
    Team 2’s artillery now unleashed itself as Team 1’s right flank finally came into range. The bombardment across the whole line quickly exhausted all of Team 2’s munition, but was timed very well (but not well enough to save the fate of the defeated flank.
    -The Center of Team 1 is tightly clustered +3 to artillery
    -The right of team 1 is undermanned +2 to artillery
    (awful rolls resulted for the artillery)
    What could have been a disaster for Team 1 turned into a blunted attack. Each Commandery loses 5% of its manpower across all unit types, resulting in no substantial reduction in firepower. Team 1’s cannon were still in the process of being repositioned.

    Phase 2
    Team 1’s strategy immediately falters, but the complete lack of initiative from Team 2 loses any advantage that might be taken. The result is a chaotic charge by Team 2’s infantry into the fire of Team 1’s archers and gunners. Team 2’s archers and gunners likewise fire at the same time, and both sides don’t bother to concentrate any fire anywhere and fire at will, losing any advantage by devastating the enemy by concentrated fire. A bloody mess ensues, with both sides being shot to pieces in the center of the field. Team 2’s artillery finally mounts the small hill and begins firing at will into the midst of its own men, adding to the carnage. Both sides lose 75% of its center and 75% of the respective flank (not accounted for in the above phase). Many of each team's own missiles strike down their own infantry in the center.

    Any further maneuvering or orders quickly become unachievable for either side.

    Victor: Team 1. Team 2 is forced from the field for decisively losing a flank, but the carnage of both armies has rendered this a phyrric victory at best, with Team 1 losing more men. The vast bulk of both armies lies dead. All commanders miraculously survive!

    takeaway: the gunpowder units have to be reduced. rolling for individual actions on so small a scale renders the whole process way too tedious and time consuming. Nobody in their right mind will have the patience for it. I can't imagine a situation where that would be decisive anyway, and result in only a few dozen more casualties on either side.

    -Barry and Sky ignored the new key aspects of the system which would have allowed them to time volleys in different phases. The result was a bar brawl in the middle of the map after the strategy for Team 1's left was executed. Range of respective units was also mostly ignored.

    -"Fire at will" as an order is completely meaningless and can only have bad results.

    -if I don't have specific phases to roll, I can't execute the intended strategy.

    -phase 1 worked well because it was better planned on both sides, phase 2 was a disaster because the orders were confused and difficult to reconcile one way or the other in favor of one side.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; December 20, 2016 at 01:47 PM.

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