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  1. #1
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    Folks, seeing anyone who argues that medieval knights were stupid, inmobile, dumb, etc. fellows 'easely' beaten by mongols, uses the arguments of Muhi and Legnica, I decided to give you some information of the battle.

    Fanboyism (whether longbowman, mongol or roman) can only be avoided if we seek historical understanding and venture into the depth knowns as 'history'.
    The only option remaining for us to understand history is: forever research as Johann Gustav Droysen claimed.
    So my next post will be the Battle of Muhi.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
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  2. #2

    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    Folks, seeing anyone who argues that medieval knights were stupid, inmobile, dumb, etc. fellows 'easely' beaten by mongols, uses the arguments of Muhi and Legnica, I decided to give you some information of the battle.
    You've got a bee in your bonnet about this haven't you? I look forward to your post as I know little of this battle and wiki seems...unacademic.
    'When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything. '

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  3. #3
    Ringeck's Avatar Lauded by his conquests
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    This should be fun. The hungarian defeat at the hands of the mongols at Mohi is often held up as some sort of knight vs horse archer contest, which makes little sense considering that the royal army in 1241 still consisted to a great deal of light cavalry "castle warriors" in addition to the medium-to-heavy cavalry ...and that King Belas defensive reforms after the invasion (which stood Ladislaus in good stead when he repelled Nogai Khan in 1285) actually consisted of increasing the number of heavy cavalry in the army.
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  4. #4
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    The Battle of Muhi

    Date: 1241 April 11.

    Main sources: -Rogerius Magister: Canto Miserable
    -Thomas of Spalato: Chronicle, and various documents from the court of King Bela IV.

    1. Prelude
    The hungarian court knew about the upcoming mongolian invasion already in 1237 when Julianus frater, a monk, returned from his quest to find those hungarians who remained in the east. Julianus spoke with them (they were the basgirds) and gained information about the mongol plans.

    In 1238 Kutun cuman 'king' sought allowance to bring his people into Hungary. The king granted it, hoping that he may be a good addition to his armies againt mongols. Kutun fought againt the mongols in the Battle of Kalka River, and lost some of his sons. He instructed the king about the mongol warfare. However the king was not a general.

    2. Mongols come
    When the mongols arrived to the border in early 1241, they marched separately and one of their armies defeated Dénes of the Tomaj genus, who was appointed to be 'nádor' which is like something between a duke and a provincial governor. Dénes opposed the mongols, who just cut through the forrests with axeman. He was defeated.
    The mongols marched against Vác, Eger and Pest. They lured the Bishop of Kalocsa with his army into a muddy terrain, a swamp, and killed them.
    The king meanwhile ordered the 'bloody sword' to be carried out thus calling out the nobles to defend Hungary.

    The mongols leaded by Batu Khan numbered around 60 000. Totally they had an army of 150 000 but the other parts were in Moldva and Poland.
    The hungarian nobles neglected the call because of the politics of King Béla.
    According to Rogerius magister, an italian priest serving as bishop in Hungary, 'they wished to see the king defeated so that they may be dearer to him'
    They thought that the mongols are actually cuman, and even if the king will be defeated the nomads will leave soon, or they can beat him in the next battle.

    The prince of Austria arrived in Pest with a very small, poor army.
    He fought some skirmish with a mongol reconnaissance team, and killed three mongols in very chivalrous ways. The people of Pest glorified him.
    Getting overconfident Prince Friedrich Babenberg killed Kutun (claiming that he is the spy of mongols) whereas King Béla sent him back to Austria. The cumans, with their entire folk leaved Hungary doing much devestation. Thus the army lost around 20 000 experienced warrior, well versed in mongol tactics.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
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    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    3. The army

    So, things went rather ugly for the hungarian army gathered at Muhi to face the mongols.
    Let us see this army.
    They were no more in number than 40 000. The kingdom was estimated to call 30 000 people to arms in the 12th century. And now some smaller armies disappeared already. And many nobles just late or remained home.

    The most experienced warriors were Bishop Ugrin Csak (hungarian bishops were high nobleman who lived and fought like any other noble, so hungarian armies were leaded by bishops in many battles) Ugrin fought againts bulgarians, serbs in smaller battles at the Balkan. Prince Kálmán (Coleman) was the king's brother. He fought valiantly as well. The hungarians were accostumed to fight against cumans, russians, austrians and balkanian armies. This time however they had not much clue about their enemy.

    Although King Béla asked the french king, the german emperor, etc to help him (knowning that he is grave danger)the only help he recived was the contigent of templar knights leaded by Rambald de Carumb.
    These knights however could be no more than a few hundred, around 500-800 heavy armed knights.

    The majority of hungarian forces consisted of lightly armed horsemen. The hungarian nobles were no vassals of anyone, because the feudal chain of lord-vassal never developed itself in Hungary. These nobles were rather poor, so they were armed with lances (winged lances), swords, and small headed battle axes. Most of the wore padded armour or a type of ringmail with leather stripes.
    They possesed no chainmail or other knights equipment. However they were not horsearchers. They fought in melee like a knight.

    The high nobles, the ispans (counts ) wore western armour (most likely german hauberks) with the guards. Thus the heavy cavalry numbered around 1-2000 knights by best estimations. No information about foot soldiers, but they composed the majority most likely, however in Hungary armies used much more cavalry than western armies because of the rich cavalry traditions.

    The foot soldiers were just lance and shield man-at-arms, or archers, basically everyone picked up a weapon he could lay hands on.
    Crossbowmen were most likely not present, however both theory and later experience justify Plano Carpini's advice to use them against the mongols.
    Later two signifant experience came to the king from this battle:

    -the 'serviens regis' (free nobles who only serve the king) must be reduced in number but equipped better like western knights because there are not enough knights in Hungary
    -castles must be built because castles withstand mongol attacks

    Thus King Béla learned just the opposite conclusion what knight-haters think: instead of using more light cavalry he actually wished to have more knights. Not instead of horsearchers, but along horsearchers. And it was not a mistake.
    Last edited by Odovacar; December 20, 2006 at 09:21 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
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    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  6. #6
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    Ok, the more tomorrow. Getting to late...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  7. #7

    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    Mongols weren't super soldiers. Most armies with decent melee training would best a Mongol army in hand-to-hand. This is what happened with the Mamluks, this is what happened here, and this is also what happened with a similar battle between the Romans and the Huns. The Mongols were huge mostly because they mobilized their entire male populations for battle, each well versed in horsemanship and horse-archery. Few, however, were trained to the extent the Mamluks, Romans, or European Knights were in melee combat.

  8. #8
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    Mongols weren't super soldiers. Most armies with decent melee training would best a Mongol army in hand-to-hand. This is what happened with the Mamluks, this is what happened here, and this is also what happened with a similar battle between the Romans and the Huns. The Mongols were huge mostly because they mobilized their entire male populations for battle, each well versed in horsemanship and horse-archery. Few, however, were trained to the extent the Mamluks, Romans, or European Knights were in melee combat.
    First mongols were ideal soldiers if we consider their discipline and how austere they were. They could endure cold, hunger, thurst more than most warrior.
    However, they almost always outnumbered their enemy, used tricks and psychological warfare to disperse their enemies. Once they have conquered a land they forced the populace to join them in attacking the neighbouring country. Thus they amassed a great multitude.

    By the time they had to do melee their enemies were dispersed and terrified. If not, the mongols were in great peril, because as horseachers they had no equipment and training to do serious meele.
    The mongols army of Muhi is unknown to us mainly.
    However, they have an ample number of russian, mordvin, etc. foot soldiers whom they have forced to join. These man were driven before the mongols with lashes, and if things go badly for mongols they were likely to run away. (One russian escaped before the battle, ran to the hungarians and exposed the mongol's plans)

    Mongols had turkoman horsearchers as well as original mongols (who were a minority in the army) these turkomans joined the mongols by force or by hope of easy booty.

    The mongols frequently engaged their enemy is small skirmishes and reconnaisance missions. They tried to discover the weakness of their enemy and their complete strength. Once they experienced heavy pressure they turned their back, and ran away. The enemy now thought that mongols are cowards and ran way (except a nomad enemy who exactly knew what the mongols up for) If the mongols were stopped in meele (like in Radna after the battle of Muhi where the saxons beaten a small group) they waited before their enemies got overconfident and begun to feast and drink. Then they attacked.
    When their enemies were dispersed or their moral lowered the mongol heavy cavalry attacked. Yes, the mongols possessed a strong heavy cavalry, which is hardly suprising if we know that heavy cavalry was created first by nomad peoples like sarmatas.
    However, not their heavy cavalry was the reason they won, but their discipline, austerity and cunning planning. And the weakness of their enemies, their liability to quickly lose moral.
    Say tuned because the battle commences.....
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
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  9. #9
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    4. The Battle

    (I tried to insert a map but it doesnt work..i really like that twc doesn't allow attachments here)


    The field of Muhi are northeast from Pest (today: Budapest).
    The hungarian army took the lower parts whereas the mongols, having arrived sooner than us, took the hills. From the hills they could see the hungarians but we could not see them. But between the two army there was the river Sajó. It was a bridge that connected the two parts of the field.
    The hungarians prepared to go defensive, it was important for the mongols to crush us, or they cannot begin devestating Hungary. So, they were the attackers.

    King Béla thought that for defensive purposes it may be wise to build a wagon-camp. A circle was made from wagons to protect the army from sudden ambushes.
    Subotaj (according to sources) said that the hungarians are stronger than the mongol army. (which in my opinion was untrue, even if Subotaj said it)
    Now, seeing the wagoncamp, Batu Khan remarked that the hungarians enclosed themselves into a fold, like sheeps. Thus mongols need to fear no more.

    While the overconfident nobles engaged in drinking and feasting, mocking the king, who gathered them to fight, just after revoking their lands and titles (most of them was gained unlawful though)
    Only the templars and Prince Kálmán, the brother of King Béla watched the enemy, in arms. During the night, a russian prisoner from the enemy camp swam through the Sajó, and ran to the hungarians, exposing the mongol plans to attack the bridge at night. Thus, alarmed they reinforced the bridge in haste, but the majority of army was asleep already or drunk, so they got not much help. When the mongols masses (mainly not mongols) attacked the bridge a heavy meele begun.
    They could swim through the river as well, but on the opposite shore the hungarians waited them prepared, so they has been repelled.
    This was the time in which the entire army had to engage the mongols and force them to meele. If that happens the day is ours.
    But-as the poets says- the 'nobles had another plans'.

    The templars and Prince Kálmán fought for hours, and stopped the advancing mongols. The mongols had great casualties, thousands of them died before all the templars, including Rambald de Carumb have fallen, and Prince Kálmán took a serious wound, which later resulted in his death. Ugrin, the warlike bishop of Kalocsa was amongst the slain.

    The mongols attacked again with catapults and crushed and routed the remaining guards of the bridge. Soon the mongol army marched to the other shore of River Sajó. Now they could attack the hungarian camp directly.

    It was dawn, and the mongols rained arrows to the hungarians.
    The hungarians tried to muster and attack the enemy, but the wagons were an obstacle to our movements.The soldiers lapsed into the ropes connecting the wagons, and into their own tents.

    Thus many of them were shot down by arrows. Small groups of nobles engaged the mongols, but they were driven away by the horsearchers who did fake fleeing. Divided, and with low morality they were slain.
    Meanwhile the mongols opened holes to allow hungarians to flee, thus ensuring that they will not gather together and fight till death, losing all hope of escape. Thus many nobles, from cowardice or seeing that the battle is lost, escaped.
    King Béla was escorted from the field, totally collapsed seeing the defeat.
    The remaining faithful nobles gathered around him, and they rode from the battlefield in haste. Meanwhile the warrior of Subotai found the royal tent, and cut its ropes, and it has fallen. Seeing that the hungarian army panicked.

    Next: the last part: 5. Aftermath.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
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  10. #10
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    Aftermath

    On July 7, 1250, King Béla gave lands to Ernye from genus Ákos, because
    on the battlefield of Muhi, he gave his own horse to the king, and remained to hinder a small group of mongols, chasing the king.
    Ákos escaped from the battlefield severely wounded.
    The king, almost killed by a mongol, who tried to struck him down with a battleaxe, was protected by another noble, Móric, who killed the attacking mongol.

    King Béla IV. escaped from the mongols who chased him down to Dalmatia. There he sought refugee in the mighty castle of Klissa. Kadar khan could not take the castle which is a very strong fortification, protected by the sea from one side, and his threaths found no ears by the loyal dalmatians.

    The king even went onto a galley, to sail away from the shores, fearing the mongols could take Klissa.
    However the mongols not tried to capture most castles. They only took the city of Székesfehérvár, but the castle guard repelled their attack, leaded by Simon of Aragonia, who used crossbowman to devestate the attackers.

    The mongols butchered thousands. They raped the women and then killed them. (Rogerius, a witness, tales many details about their wickedness)
    Fortunately Geregye Pál, the chief judge of the country resisted their attempts to raid the other parts of Hungary, those which lay on he other side of Danube River.

    According to Rogerius, Hungary was totally ruined. Wolves and foxes were praying on the masses of butchered man, woman and children. The villages were burnt. The mongols having acquired the great stamp of the King made fake issues, and sent these away to the hidden people.

    The issues commanded them leave their hiding places (swamps, mountains) because the king has beaten the mongols out of the land
    When these wretched people came out, the mongols ruthlessy butchered them. They hunted humans like animals. To even greater misery, the austrian prince Frederick captured our king and robbed his treasures. A large german army, waiting for the mongols in Germany, has done nothing against them.
    The castles remamined intact, but there were just a few of them.
    Traitors and robbers ran amok, and attacked and robbed those who escaped the mongols. Amongst these villains was, Fulko, the lord of Fulek Castle, who first called the fleeing ones into his castle then slained them.


    Eventually the mongols leaved Hungary, because the new khan was about to be elected and Batu had to take parts in the fights for power. They continued to threathen the hungarian king for decades, but by that time, the kingdom was rebuilt, and King Béla arranged everything to face he mongols with a greater army should they come again.
    They attacked again with smaller armies in King Laslo's time, but this time the székelys ambushed and repelled them.
    And at the battle of Wiener Neustadt Prince Frederich paid for his wickedness. King Béla said later about him: 'by the grace of God, we have pushed Prince Frederich into the darkness of death with success'
    Frederich was killed by a maceman (or by a cuman arrow) and his dynasty died out.

    I tried to resconstruct this sad story according to the sources available to me.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  11. #11
    Atterdag's Avatar Tro og Hĺb
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    It's very interesting. Great posts.

    Though you might want to run it through a grammatical tjeck (some mistakes in tempus etc.)
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  12. #12
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    Thanks I will try to correct the spelling soon.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
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    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


  13. #13

    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    good stuff mate. Stupid cowards allowing the barbarians to take the land because they disliked the King. Playing the mtw2 cd in backround tuned me into this read.
    Without a sign, his sword the brave man draws, and asks no omen but his country's cause

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  14. #14
    Odovacar's Avatar I am with Europe!
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    Default Re: The Battle of Muhi 1241 (example of medieval warfare)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavastein View Post
    good stuff mate. Stupid cowards allowing the barbarians to take the land because they disliked the King. Playing the mtw2 cd in backround tuned me into this read.
    Thanks for the interest.
    I dont blame entirely the majority of nobles for this defeat, many factors contributed. However they were clearly uncapable to deal with such an enemy.
    They never faced such a cruel, cunning, confident and numerous enemy before.
    They most likely thought: 'well just another cuman or pescheneg horsearcher band...once they run out of arrows they just ride away'

    Also, earlier they planned to call the german emperor into Hungary. If Germany or other western feudal country conquers Hungary, many nobles just retain their possessions, after accepting the new ruler. So, they imagined the mongols will act similarly, and only King Béla will suffer.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB HORSEARCHER
    quis enim dubitat quin multis iam saeculis, ex quo vires illius ad Romanorum nomen accesserint, Italia quidem sit gentium domina gloriae vetustate sed Pannonia virtute

    Sorry Armenia, for the rascals who lead us.


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